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	<title>Comments on: The Genie Outside The Bottle.</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/ukraine/the-genie-outside-the-bottle/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:02:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Marissa</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/ukraine/the-genie-outside-the-bottle/#comment-6110</link>
		<dc:creator>Marissa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Dec 2004 08:15:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1004#comment-6110</guid>
		<description>I'm sorry, but I have to object to DoDo saying that Kyiv was the "one time centre of Russia." Kyiv was the centre of Kyivan Rus. Just as Ukraine, per se, did not exist at the time, neither did Russia. It would be more appropriate to say that Kyiv was the one time centre of Slavic civilization.
Just saying. 
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry, but I have to object to DoDo saying that Kyiv was the &#8220;one time centre of Russia.&#8221; Kyiv was the centre of Kyivan Rus. Just as Ukraine, per se, did not exist at the time, neither did Russia. It would be more appropriate to say that Kyiv was the one time centre of Slavic civilization.<br />
Just saying.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexei</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/ukraine/the-genie-outside-the-bottle/#comment-6109</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:49:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1004#comment-6109</guid>
		<description>Thanks for providing the map -- it is more informative than the "standard" BBC orange-blue one.

DoDo: as far as I know, the late Vyacheslav Chornovil, a prominent Ukrainian nationalist politician, identified nine key ethnocultural regions of Ukraine and at some point suggested that the country become a federation of those. 

The Western areas (E. Galicia, Volhynia) might have been the cradle of modern Ukrainian nationalism within Austria-Hungary, but the North-Center has a stronger claim to being the country's core. With Kyiv at its heart, it was indeed at least one of the birthplaces of Ancient Rus' and the entry point for Orthodox Christianity; much of the debate between Ukrainian nationalists and Moscow is about who is the rightful heir to Kievan Rus' (as if there had to be only one).

A century after the Mongols destroyed Kyiv, Lithuania easily annexed the North-Center; Galicia and Volhynia were divided between Poland and Lithuania in the 14th century. Then Poland merged with Lithuania; in the late 16th century Western Ukrainian areas converted (not without political pressure from Polish authorities) to Catholicism of the Eastern Rite. Most Orthodox subjects of the Polish crown (Ukrainians and Belarusans, to use our terminology retroactively) saw this conversion, the so-called Unia, in a rather negative light. This division is still important.

As the Orthodox Ukraine, again centered around Kyiv, resisted Polish attempts at Catholization in the 16th and 17th centuries, the so-called bratstva -- communities or fellowships of Orthodox believers -- emerged to promote solidarity and education. I would say these were the seeds of civil society in Ukraine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for providing the map &#8212; it is more informative than the &#8220;standard&#8221; BBC orange-blue one.</p>
<p>DoDo: as far as I know, the late Vyacheslav Chornovil, a prominent Ukrainian nationalist politician, identified nine key ethnocultural regions of Ukraine and at some point suggested that the country become a federation of those. </p>
<p>The Western areas (E. Galicia, Volhynia) might have been the cradle of modern Ukrainian nationalism within Austria-Hungary, but the North-Center has a stronger claim to being the country&#8217;s core. With Kyiv at its heart, it was indeed at least one of the birthplaces of Ancient Rus&#8217; and the entry point for Orthodox Christianity; much of the debate between Ukrainian nationalists and Moscow is about who is the rightful heir to Kievan Rus&#8217; (as if there had to be only one).</p>
<p>A century after the Mongols destroyed Kyiv, Lithuania easily annexed the North-Center; Galicia and Volhynia were divided between Poland and Lithuania in the 14th century. Then Poland merged with Lithuania; in the late 16th century Western Ukrainian areas converted (not without political pressure from Polish authorities) to Catholicism of the Eastern Rite. Most Orthodox subjects of the Polish crown (Ukrainians and Belarusans, to use our terminology retroactively) saw this conversion, the so-called Unia, in a rather negative light. This division is still important.</p>
<p>As the Orthodox Ukraine, again centered around Kyiv, resisted Polish attempts at Catholization in the 16th and 17th centuries, the so-called bratstva &#8212; communities or fellowships of Orthodox believers &#8212; emerged to promote solidarity and education. I would say these were the seeds of civil society in Ukraine.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/ukraine/the-genie-outside-the-bottle/#comment-6108</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:15:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1004#comment-6108</guid>
		<description>I suspect whichever Viktor ends up on the losing side will eventually concede "in order to protect national unity". It's a dignified way out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect whichever Viktor ends up on the losing side will eventually concede &#8220;in order to protect national unity&#8221;. It&#8217;s a dignified way out.</p>
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		<title>By: DoDo</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/ukraine/the-genie-outside-the-bottle/#comment-6107</link>
		<dc:creator>DoDo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1004#comment-6107</guid>
		<description>One more thing: unfortunately, I don't think that quote from Neeka's blog indicates a 'freeer' press. While Neeka and fellow Orange(wo)men can certainly be happy that the media at last covers their side of the story, cutting away from the Yanukovych side presenting its arguments to a Yushchenko protest sounds not 'free' but bias turned around 180%. I hope this is just one event and not a new pattern.

On the bright side, the peaceful mingling of Blue and Orange protestors Neeka described in an earlier post are just... fascinating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more thing: unfortunately, I don&#8217;t think that quote from Neeka&#8217;s blog indicates a &#8216;freeer&#8217; press. While Neeka and fellow Orange(wo)men can certainly be happy that the media at last covers their side of the story, cutting away from the Yanukovych side presenting its arguments to a Yushchenko protest sounds not &#8216;free&#8217; but bias turned around 180%. I hope this is just one event and not a new pattern.</p>
<p>On the bright side, the peaceful mingling of Blue and Orange protestors Neeka described in an earlier post are just&#8230; fascinating.</p>
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		<title>By: DoDo</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/ukraine/the-genie-outside-the-bottle/#comment-6106</link>
		<dc:creator>DoDo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:24:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1004#comment-6106</guid>
		<description>Good points about the issues of language.

I note two things. First, while there was incredulity about the above-90-% Yanukovych vote in the easternmost oblasts, we can see similar percentages in the Westernmost oblasts (with the exception of the one oblast that belonged to Czechoslovakia and before that to Hungary) for Yushchenko. So I think the division is very real, and the magnitude of election fraud is not necessarily in the double digits (of voters' percentages).

Second, on that blue ethno-linguistic border. As I wrote on my blog, it might make more sense to represent Ukrainian territorial differences with a three-way split, rather than a two-way one. There is Western Ukraine: Western Christian, originated as the Halic (Galician) kingdom, later history as part of either Poland-Lithuania, Poland or the Habsburg Empire, and the birthplace of Ukrainian nationalism. Then there is the Central-North: onetime center of Russia smashed by the Mongol invasion, later Cossack territory and at times in Lithuanian control, Eastern Orthodox. Finally, the South and Southeast are territories where nomadic tribes passed through for centuries, with the Mongols as the last one, whose heirs were the Tatars - this area was conquered and re-settled (with settlers from both from 'Ukrainian' and 'Russsia proper' areas) by Russia from Peter The Great until the Crimean War.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points about the issues of language.</p>
<p>I note two things. First, while there was incredulity about the above-90-% Yanukovych vote in the easternmost oblasts, we can see similar percentages in the Westernmost oblasts (with the exception of the one oblast that belonged to Czechoslovakia and before that to Hungary) for Yushchenko. So I think the division is very real, and the magnitude of election fraud is not necessarily in the double digits (of voters&#8217; percentages).</p>
<p>Second, on that blue ethno-linguistic border. As I wrote on my blog, it might make more sense to represent Ukrainian territorial differences with a three-way split, rather than a two-way one. There is Western Ukraine: Western Christian, originated as the Halic (Galician) kingdom, later history as part of either Poland-Lithuania, Poland or the Habsburg Empire, and the birthplace of Ukrainian nationalism. Then there is the Central-North: onetime center of Russia smashed by the Mongol invasion, later Cossack territory and at times in Lithuanian control, Eastern Orthodox. Finally, the South and Southeast are territories where nomadic tribes passed through for centuries, with the Mongols as the last one, whose heirs were the Tatars - this area was conquered and re-settled (with settlers from both from &#8216;Ukrainian&#8217; and &#8216;Russsia proper&#8217; areas) by Russia from Peter The Great until the Crimean War.</p>
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