Comments on: Hey, what are you doing inside on this lovely November eve?

By: Scott MacMillan

Scott MacMillan — Thu, 25 Nov 2004 15:47:39 +0000

DoDo — looks like this thread has been buried by other Ukraine posts so it’s unlikely you’ll read this! By “not acting” I simply meant that the Czechs were hardly at the forefront when it came to resisting communism during the 70s and 80s, and as a result the Prague hardliners managed to hang on until the last moment. It was Poland that was the seat of East European resistance, and it was Hungary opening the borders that precipitated the fall of the Wall. Charter 77 was a piece of paper signed by a relatively few brave intellectuals, and I wouldn’t put it on the same level as the anti-Moscow movements in neighboring countries.

By: TulipGirl

TulipGirl — Wed, 24 Nov 2004 03:07:56 +0000

I’m home with the kiddos while Hubby is at Independence Square. But he sent me some photos via a friend, and they are up here:
http://www.postmodernclog.com

Btw, I’ve heard some news sources saying that it’s just student activists at this rally. Hubby says that is definitely not so! Even the dyedushki and babushki are out!

By: DoDo

DoDo — Wed, 24 Nov 2004 00:30:42 +0000

Scott, I still don’t get what you mean by not acting – I repeat, these conservations were overheard from people gathering for a major protest! If you meant that the young acted first – well, duh! They always do.

I think the Soviets (& vassals) crushed the spirit of the 1968 generation not with the 70s normalisation (which didn’t prevent Charta ’77), but with tanks. That’s how it worked in Hungary (1956) too (and how Americans try to make it work in Iraq, too).

By: Scott MacMillan

Scott MacMillan — Tue, 23 Nov 2004 21:23:16 +0000

DoDo — good point. I was casting the net pretty wide when I said “middle aged.” What I should have said was “everybody over the age of 30.”

I think the Soviets simply crushed the spirit of the 1968 generation, largely through the “normalization” process of the 1970s. This was tragic but expected. It wasn’t just that the Czechs were passive; it would have happened (and did happen to a large degree) in Poland and Hungary as well.

So I don’t mean to lambast that generation, but the fact is when the time came to act, it wasn’t the ’68ers that stepped to the plate (sorry for that American metaphor) but rather their kids. It was to the credit of the older generation that despite all those stifling years they immediately knew (most of them, anyway) whose side they were on.

By: Georg

Georg — Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:51:58 +0000

As far as I remember, in Georgia Shevardnadze was initially relying on some level of support from Moscow, and he finally shrivelled away after a visit from Russian foreign minister Ivanov, who apparently told him to step aside. Nothing similar is going to happen in Ukraine.

Can Putin be bullied by the Ukrainian street, the US, and the EU to accept at least a cancellation of the election results and a new poll, maybe with new candidates? If yes, Kuchma might follow.

By: David Weman

David Weman — Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:42:31 +0000

Yeah. What can Putin or for that matter the west do? He’s not going to invade.

By: Doug

Doug — Tue, 23 Nov 2004 20:05:53 +0000

Wasn’t aware that Ukraine belonged to Russia. Anymore than, say, Slovenia still belongs to Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia belonged to Austria in 1931, Greece to the Ottoman Empire in 1840, or indeed the United States to Britain in 1796.

By: Tobias

Tobias — Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:39:36 +0000

Doug,

plus – is the rest of the world *really* interested right now in “taking Ukraine from Russia”, thereby likely endangering the remnants of Russian democracy even further?

By: belle waring

belle waring — Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:02:35 +0000

right on!

By: Doug Muir

Doug Muir — Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:27:13 +0000

I’m not getting my hopes up. Do you really think Putin’s going to let this one get away? Georgia was small, relatively unimportant, and took ‘em by surprise. This one is none of the above.

Call me cynical, but I’ve got five bucks says Yanukovic triumphs over all adversity to claim the prize.

Doug M.