Comments on: Turkey and the EU: Poles apart? http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/turkey-and-the-eu-poles-apart/ European Opinion Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:56:05 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: Doug http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/turkey-and-the-eu-poles-apart/#comment-6898 Doug Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:33:25 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1098#comment-6898 Yusuf, the short answer is no, though the constitution may change things. The EU didn't even deal well with the incorporation of Haider's far, far-right party into the Austrian government in the late 1990s. Lots of harrumphing, something like a boycott, and then an embarrassing climbdown. On the other hand, by the time a country has absorbed enough of the acquis to actually become a member, the chances of heavy-handed military intervention in domestic politics are probably quite small. Spanish history is instructive. Yusuf, the short answer is no, though the constitution may change things. The EU didn’t even deal well with the incorporation of Haider’s far, far-right party into the Austrian government in the late 1990s. Lots of harrumphing, something like a boycott, and then an embarrassing climbdown.

On the other hand, by the time a country has absorbed enough of the acquis to actually become a member, the chances of heavy-handed military intervention in domestic politics are probably quite small. Spanish history is instructive.

]]> By: Yusuf Smith http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/turkey-and-the-eu-poles-apart/#comment-6897 Yusuf Smith Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:19:51 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1098#comment-6897 As a Muslim I find it somewhat depressing that the greatest hope for Muslims' rights to practice their religion (fully) in their own country appears to come from integration with the European Union. But these people who talk about Turkey being incompatible with the EU because of Turkey's mainly Muslim population ignore another big issue - the threat from the Turkish military. What will happen if the Turkish military (with its tradition of treachery - its last coup was in the 1970s and it was instrumental in getting rid of Erbakan) decides to stage another coup? Does the EU have mechanisms for what to do when a member state's democratic institutions are kicked aside? As a Muslim I find it somewhat depressing that the greatest hope for Muslims’ rights to practice their religion (fully) in their own country appears to come from integration with the European Union. But these people who talk about Turkey being incompatible with the EU because of Turkey’s mainly Muslim population ignore another big issue - the threat from the Turkish military. What will happen if the Turkish military (with its tradition of treachery - its last coup was in the 1970s and it was instrumental in getting rid of Erbakan) decides to stage another coup? Does the EU have mechanisms for what to do when a member state’s democratic institutions are kicked aside?

]]> By: Mrs Tilton http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/turkey-and-the-eu-poles-apart/#comment-6896 Mrs Tilton Sun, 02 Jan 2005 08:27:34 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1098#comment-6896 Dennis, you win a prize for being the first person I have ever encountered, on usenet or in a blog, to cite Deschner. He was a favourite of mine in my atheist years. He's still a favourite. But, whatever you might (correctly) say about intellectual elites fleeing west as the Turks took Constantinople, they were just that: an elite. (And thank heaven they did flee; the flea-bitten west would have had far less to work with had they not done.) Still, as things settled down, the bulk of the orthodox in what became the Ottoman realms found they could be quite strong about giving tribute to a Muslim master, so long as this allowed them to carry on undisturbed, and free from a master at Rome. Dennis,

you win a prize for being the first person I have ever encountered, on usenet or in a blog, to cite Deschner. He was a favourite of mine in my atheist years. He’s still a favourite.

But, whatever you might (correctly) say about intellectual elites fleeing west as the Turks took Constantinople, they were just that: an elite. (And thank heaven they did flee; the flea-bitten west would have had far less to work with had they not done.) Still, as things settled down, the bulk of the orthodox in what became the Ottoman realms found they could be quite strong about giving tribute to a Muslim master, so long as this allowed them to carry on undisturbed, and free from a master at Rome.

]]> By: c http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/turkey-and-the-eu-poles-apart/#comment-6895 c Sun, 02 Jan 2005 02:22:54 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1098#comment-6895 Especially compared with the way the European powers react to how they behaved in their former colonies. Especially compared with the way the European powers react to how they behaved in their former colonies.

]]> By: Curtis Erhart http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/turkey-and-the-eu-poles-apart/#comment-6894 Curtis Erhart Sat, 01 Jan 2005 21:02:07 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1098#comment-6894 "This is fair. The critical issue, IMO, is that Turkish partisans stop reacting hysterically whenever the word "genocide" is used in connection with the Armenians, by anyone. That's incredibly offputting and rather disturbing." Very true. Turkish touchiness on this subject is bizarre, and only serves to make them look guilty of worse things that even the Armenians accuse them of. “This is fair. The critical issue, IMO, is that Turkish partisans stop reacting hysterically whenever the word “genocide” is used in connection with the Armenians, by anyone. That’s incredibly offputting and rather disturbing.”

Very true. Turkish touchiness on this subject is bizarre, and only serves to make them look guilty of worse things that even the Armenians accuse them of.

]]> By: Hektor Bim http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/turkey-and-the-eu-poles-apart/#comment-6893 Hektor Bim Sat, 01 Jan 2005 02:35:52 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1098#comment-6893 Fair enough about the UK. The problem is that there are UK bases on Cyprus, ostensibly for the defense of Cyprus, but the British did absolutely nothing when the Turks invaded. So the British haven't kept up their part of the bargain, and should go, but it isn't the same thing as occupation - so I withdraw the statement about the UK. Fair enough about the UK. The problem is that there are UK bases on Cyprus, ostensibly for the defense of Cyprus, but the British did absolutely nothing when the Turks invaded. So the British haven’t kept up their part of the bargain, and should go, but it isn’t the same thing as occupation - so I withdraw the statement about the UK.

]]> By: Randy McDonald http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/turkey-and-the-eu-poles-apart/#comment-6892 Randy McDonald Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:53:36 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1098#comment-6892 Curtis: But I will also say this, the Turks, I believe will come to a reasonable place on this issue much quicker if opponents merely insist on open and honest discussion and not that they show a certain amount of contrition, or use the word ?genocide.? This is fair. The critical issue, IMO, is that Turkish partisans stop reacting hysterically whenever the word "genocide" is used in connection with the Armenians, by anyone. That's incredibly offputting and rather disturbing. Curtis:

But I will also say this, the Turks, I believe will come to a reasonable place on this issue much quicker if opponents merely insist on open and honest discussion and not that they show a certain amount of contrition, or use the word ?genocide.?

This is fair. The critical issue, IMO, is that Turkish partisans stop reacting hysterically whenever the word “genocide” is used in connection with the Armenians, by anyone. That’s incredibly offputting and rather disturbing.

]]> By: dennis http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/turkey-and-the-eu-poles-apart/#comment-6891 dennis Fri, 31 Dec 2004 17:13:32 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1098#comment-6891 "The orthodox patriarchs and the Muslim sultans saw in the latinate West a common foe. Indeed my own suspicion is that the Greeks felt a keener enmity than the Turks" Well, that might be partly true but would apply only for highest echelons of the clergy who saw it as their chance to retain power and influence, as the church was the only form of government in many areas of the balkans, collecting taxes etc. The overwhelming majority of the greek populations only saw ottoman rule as damaging and they voted with their feet. The intellectual elite and upper classes immigrated to western europe, mainly Florence and other city states in Italy. A very interesting book on what led up to this state of affairs is Kriminalgeschichte des Christentums by Karlheinz Deschner “The orthodox patriarchs and the Muslim sultans saw in the latinate West a common foe. Indeed my own suspicion is that the Greeks felt a keener enmity than the Turks”

Well, that might be partly true but would apply only for highest echelons of the clergy who saw it as their chance to retain power and influence, as the church was the only form of government in many areas of the balkans, collecting taxes etc.
The overwhelming majority of the greek populations only saw ottoman rule as damaging and they voted with their feet. The intellectual elite and upper classes immigrated to western europe, mainly Florence and other city states in Italy.

A very interesting book on what led up to this state of affairs is

Kriminalgeschichte des Christentums
by Karlheinz Deschner

]]> By: Michael D http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/turkey-and-the-eu-poles-apart/#comment-6890 Michael D Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:15:30 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1098#comment-6890 Hektor: ...the UK currently occupies a large amount of Cyprus... Hektor: ...no member of the EU currently occupies another EU country... You can't have it both ways :) There seems to be one ingredient missing from this fascinating discussion: 80 million Turks; most of whom weren't alive in 1975, let alone 1915. It is important to learn from history, but the issue at hand is the future not the past. Paraphrasing Mrs T., unless you believe that there is something intrinsicly evil passed on through generations, arguments about passed atrocities generate more heat than light. Hektor: …the UK currently occupies a large amount of Cyprus…

Hektor: …no member of the EU currently occupies another EU country…

You can’t have it both ways :)
There seems to be one ingredient missing from this fascinating discussion: 80 million Turks; most of whom weren’t alive in 1975, let alone 1915. It is important to learn from history, but the issue at hand is the future not the past. Paraphrasing Mrs T., unless you believe that there is something intrinsicly evil passed on through generations, arguments about passed atrocities generate more heat than light.

]]> By: Frank http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/turkey-and-the-eu-poles-apart/#comment-6889 Frank Fri, 31 Dec 2004 13:37:29 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1098#comment-6889 To see the problem of recognizing past wrongs, you could use the Vietnam war as an example. The US killed more than a million people there. Many would consider that a serious crime. Yet in the US it isn't. Try calling the military that committed those killings (mostly reffered to as vietnam vets) criminals. Highly insulting, and unacceptable in the US. They fought with honour etc. Even saying that the US lost that war still upsets some US citizens. History is being written by the strongest party around. And Turkey should accept that the Armenian story is being rewritten, as Turkey will no longer be the power that determines the story when they are part of the EU. But the story needs to be rewritten in a way that does justice to the truth, the Armenians, and the Turks. If all it takes of the Turkish government is for them to say, "Yeah, we were wrong about that, now can we get our membership?", it will be pretty meaningless. To see the problem of recognizing past wrongs, you could use the Vietnam war as an example.

The US killed more than a million people there.
Many would consider that a serious crime. Yet in the US it isn’t. Try calling the military that committed those killings (mostly reffered to as vietnam vets) criminals. Highly insulting, and unacceptable in the US. They fought with honour etc. Even saying that the US lost that war still upsets some US citizens.

History is being written by the strongest party around. And Turkey should accept that the Armenian story is being rewritten, as Turkey will no longer be the power that determines the story when they are part of the EU.

But the story needs to be rewritten in a way that does justice to the truth, the Armenians, and the Turks.

If all it takes of the Turkish government is for them to say, “Yeah, we were wrong about that, now can we get our membership?”, it will be pretty meaningless.

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