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	<title>Comments on: Ten years since the bombs started falling</title>
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	<description>European Opinion</description>
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		<title>By: Ten years since the bombs started falling &#124; afoe &#124; A Fistful of &#8230; &#124; alba news</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/ten-years-since-the-bombs-started-falling/comment-page-1/#comment-40805</link>
		<dc:creator>Ten years since the bombs started falling &#124; afoe &#124; A Fistful of &#8230; &#124; alba news</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Aug 2010 03:36:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5250#comment-40805</guid>
		<description>[...] the original here: Ten years since the bombs started falling &#124; afoe &#124; A Fistful of &#8230;   Share and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the original here: Ten years since the bombs started falling | afoe | A Fistful of &#8230;   Share and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Doug M.</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/ten-years-since-the-bombs-started-falling/comment-page-1/#comment-25302</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 May 2009 14:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5250#comment-25302</guid>
		<description>Um, Wim, &quot;Skipetaran&quot; is not &quot;Shiptar&quot;.

It&#039;s like &quot;negro&quot; and &quot;nigger&quot;.  


Doug M.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um, Wim, &#8220;Skipetaran&#8221; is not &#8220;Shiptar&#8221;.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s like &#8220;negro&#8221; and &#8220;nigger&#8221;.  </p>
<p>Doug M.</p>
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		<title>By: Wim Roffel</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/ten-years-since-the-bombs-started-falling/comment-page-1/#comment-25190</link>
		<dc:creator>Wim Roffel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 13:53:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5250#comment-25190</guid>
		<description>In 1892 Karl May published a book under the title &quot;Durch das Land der Skipetaren&quot;. Was he a racist or was the term at that time much more accepted?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In 1892 Karl May published a book under the title &#8220;Durch das Land der Skipetaren&#8221;. Was he a racist or was the term at that time much more accepted?</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/ten-years-since-the-bombs-started-falling/comment-page-1/#comment-24943</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 11:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5250#comment-24943</guid>
		<description>What exactly is surprising about Serbs being indignant about the NATO bombing? Other countries have committed much worse atrocities(Turkey for example)without similar(i fact without any) actions taken against them. Not to mention that the same Ahtisaari as well as Bill Clinton had agreed that Kossovo would remain a part of Yugoslavia as a part of the Ahtisaari plan to end the bombing.
No wonder Iran is not going to take any western assurances seriously today. Credibility is something that once you lose, you cannot get back.
You can try to solve problems by force or by trying to find some common ground.  In that case
it had been decided to solve the issue by force. Solving issues by force however tends to leave deep scars that  may or may not heal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What exactly is surprising about Serbs being indignant about the NATO bombing? Other countries have committed much worse atrocities(Turkey for example)without similar(i fact without any) actions taken against them. Not to mention that the same Ahtisaari as well as Bill Clinton had agreed that Kossovo would remain a part of Yugoslavia as a part of the Ahtisaari plan to end the bombing.<br />
No wonder Iran is not going to take any western assurances seriously today. Credibility is something that once you lose, you cannot get back.<br />
You can try to solve problems by force or by trying to find some common ground.  In that case<br />
it had been decided to solve the issue by force. Solving issues by force however tends to leave deep scars that  may or may not heal.</p>
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		<title>By: Ermir Ismaili</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/ten-years-since-the-bombs-started-falling/comment-page-1/#comment-24859</link>
		<dc:creator>Ermir Ismaili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 15:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5250#comment-24859</guid>
		<description>&quot;Shiptar&quot; is not a casual slur. It is rooted in Serb society and &quot;culture&quot;.

http://www.oxan.com/worldnextweek/2007-11-01/Shiptar.aspx

Albanians have never called each other like that as the above Serb E-troll suggests. We call ourselves ShQiptar. The problem is Slavs are not capable of pronounciating the Q so this is what&#039;s behind it :

&gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;I have learned English relatively late in life, and one of the little mysteries of the language for me was grasping why exactly the n-word was so offensive. Italian being my quasi-mother-tongue, I could tell that its etymology is completely innocuous: merely coming from the Latin &#039;negro&#039; meaning &#039;black&#039;. &#039;Black&#039; is a neutral word, much as &#039;white&#039; is. So why the fuss?

I could perfectly understand why &#039;motherfuc*er&#039; or &#039;asshole&#039; were offensive words because they mean inherently negative things, semantically, but the taboo offensiveness of the word &#039;black&#039; in Latin (the n-word) escaped me for the longest time.

Now I think I have slowly come to understand it: it&#039;s the same as with &#039;shiptar&#039;. &#039;Shiptar&#039; is merely the Slavic pronunciation of Shqiptar (the &#039;q&#039; in Shqiptar is a bitch to pronounce) which is itself merely the adjective meaning &#039;Albanian&#039; in the Albanian language.

So it&#039;s an explosive ethnic slur comparable in gravity to the n-word, to call Albanians &#039;Albanian&#039; in Serbia!!!

When I first heard Serbs calling me Shiptar I just thought they were saying I was Albanian, zealously pointing out this simple truism as if it were something special. I didn&#039;t get it.

It turns out that Serbs calling Albanians what Albanians call themselves is mighty offensive, though the semantics of the word are purely neutral and descriptive. Where does the hatred in that word stem from?

This is the ugliest most disgusting form of racism: calling an ethnicity/race of people by their proper (and neutral) name, but using that neutral designation as a synonym with &#039;inferiority&#039;, &#039;ugliness&#039;, &#039;wretchedness&#039;, &#039;parasitism&#039; and what have you.

It is akin to implicitly proclaiming that all the negative dehumanizing properties assigned to a certain hated ethnic/racial group by racists are self-evidently and inherently tied to that group.

In this case, it signifies that hatred toward and dehumanization of Albanians are so ingrained in the collective psyche of the Serbian nation, that Serbs everywhere can express their bigoted feelings toward Albanians by just calling Albanians &#039;Albanian&#039;, because the word itself implies the entire pool of disgust and hatred for Albanians implicit in Serbian culture.

So a Serbian nationalist doesn&#039;t need to call me a &#039;terrorist, filthy, parasitic, evil, inferior, barbaric Albanian&#039;; s/he just needs to contemptuously call me &#039;Albanian!&#039; (Shiptar) and all these qualities are inherently implied in my very being as an Albanian, and bear not explicitly repeating.

Same with the n-word. It wasn&#039;t originally a slur, if you look up the history and evolution of the term. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger

But I can imagine bigoted rednecks whipping black slaves with a leash at a plantation somewhere, screeching at them &#039;niggers!&#039; full of seething hatred, as if calling them merely what they were (i.e. blacks) would be the highest most universal insult. To them to be black was in itself self-evidently equivalent to all the derogatory associations now crystallized around that word.

It&#039;s the same with Shiptar. The language here is a testament to the degree of widespread collective dehumanization of Albanians in the Serbian public opinion. They don&#039;t need other insults for Albanians: merely calling them Albanians will do, as if Albanian=monster.

So it&#039;s not even on the same scale with calling a militant hyper-nationalist Serb a Chetnik. The Kosovar woman calling a little fascist that (whether he was a self-identified Chetnik or not) does not mean that she thinks all Serbs are Chetniks (or whatever qualities that term implies). You could pretty safely call militant Serbian nationalists Chetniks, without every Serb on the face of the Earth having any reason to be offended. Chetnik is used in the Balkans as a proxy for a militant chauvinistic Serb (and there are valid historical inferences to support this analogy); therefore it makes a qualitative distinction between Serbs fitting a certain behavioral pattern, versus the average Serb minding his business. It does not dehumanize Serbs wholescale.

Shiptar on the other hand makes no qualitative distinction, and it is a racist offense to all Albanians everywhere.

By the way, for what it&#039;s worth, there are no equivalent of &#039;Shiptar&#039; to denigrate Serbs in the Albanian language. Serbs are called &#039;Serb&#039; which is a completely neutral adjective, like &#039;American&#039; or &#039;Chinese&#039;.&quot;

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/06/the-road-to-kos.php

Sorry for the long piece, but I find her analyze fascinating

Marriage between Albanians and Slavs is not rare, but almost always the groom is Albanian. Agim Ceku&#039;s wife is Croatian, and several Kosovo politiacians&#039; and personalities are married to Serb women, some of which have given splendid fighters to the UCK hehe. 

In Albania we have had a muslim Slav from Montenegro, Ramiz Alia , become the head of state, succeeding to Enver Hoxha, also a member of the Macedonian minority become minister of Defense and even Prime Minister, that is Pandeli Majko. And we have the Greek minority politicians that have become ministers despite being less than 2% of the population and even a Torbesh like Namik Dokle easily managed to become . Also the wife of the current Prime Minister Sali Berisha is half Serbian from her mother&#039;s side....We never see this happening in Serbia yet the Serb hater can&#039;t stop his (desperate) propaganda that Serbs intermarry with Bosnians when all Bosnians remember very well Serbs sniping Bosnian and occasionally Serb &#039;traitorous&#039; children from the hills of Sarajevo.

Oh, the topic is about denial....it seems 78 days weren&#039;t enough...

PS : Mr Muir , when is that piece on Macedonia Vs Greece coming out? W</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Shiptar&#8221; is not a casual slur. It is rooted in Serb society and &#8220;culture&#8221;.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.oxan.com/worldnextweek/2007-11-01/Shiptar.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.oxan.com/worldnextweek/2007-11-01/Shiptar.aspx</a></p>
<p>Albanians have never called each other like that as the above Serb E-troll suggests. We call ourselves ShQiptar. The problem is Slavs are not capable of pronounciating the Q so this is what&#8217;s behind it :</p>
<p>&gt;&gt;&gt;&#8221;I have learned English relatively late in life, and one of the little mysteries of the language for me was grasping why exactly the n-word was so offensive. Italian being my quasi-mother-tongue, I could tell that its etymology is completely innocuous: merely coming from the Latin &#8216;negro&#8217; meaning &#8216;black&#8217;. &#8216;Black&#8217; is a neutral word, much as &#8216;white&#8217; is. So why the fuss?</p>
<p>I could perfectly understand why &#8216;motherfuc*er&#8217; or &#8216;asshole&#8217; were offensive words because they mean inherently negative things, semantically, but the taboo offensiveness of the word &#8216;black&#8217; in Latin (the n-word) escaped me for the longest time.</p>
<p>Now I think I have slowly come to understand it: it&#8217;s the same as with &#8216;shiptar&#8217;. &#8216;Shiptar&#8217; is merely the Slavic pronunciation of Shqiptar (the &#8216;q&#8217; in Shqiptar is a bitch to pronounce) which is itself merely the adjective meaning &#8216;Albanian&#8217; in the Albanian language.</p>
<p>So it&#8217;s an explosive ethnic slur comparable in gravity to the n-word, to call Albanians &#8216;Albanian&#8217; in Serbia!!!</p>
<p>When I first heard Serbs calling me Shiptar I just thought they were saying I was Albanian, zealously pointing out this simple truism as if it were something special. I didn&#8217;t get it.</p>
<p>It turns out that Serbs calling Albanians what Albanians call themselves is mighty offensive, though the semantics of the word are purely neutral and descriptive. Where does the hatred in that word stem from?</p>
<p>This is the ugliest most disgusting form of racism: calling an ethnicity/race of people by their proper (and neutral) name, but using that neutral designation as a synonym with &#8216;inferiority&#8217;, &#8216;ugliness&#8217;, &#8216;wretchedness&#8217;, &#8216;parasitism&#8217; and what have you.</p>
<p>It is akin to implicitly proclaiming that all the negative dehumanizing properties assigned to a certain hated ethnic/racial group by racists are self-evidently and inherently tied to that group.</p>
<p>In this case, it signifies that hatred toward and dehumanization of Albanians are so ingrained in the collective psyche of the Serbian nation, that Serbs everywhere can express their bigoted feelings toward Albanians by just calling Albanians &#8216;Albanian&#8217;, because the word itself implies the entire pool of disgust and hatred for Albanians implicit in Serbian culture.</p>
<p>So a Serbian nationalist doesn&#8217;t need to call me a &#8216;terrorist, filthy, parasitic, evil, inferior, barbaric Albanian&#8217;; s/he just needs to contemptuously call me &#8216;Albanian!&#8217; (Shiptar) and all these qualities are inherently implied in my very being as an Albanian, and bear not explicitly repeating.</p>
<p>Same with the n-word. It wasn&#8217;t originally a slur, if you look up the history and evolution of the term. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger</a></p>
<p>But I can imagine bigoted rednecks whipping black slaves with a leash at a plantation somewhere, screeching at them &#8216;niggers!&#8217; full of seething hatred, as if calling them merely what they were (i.e. blacks) would be the highest most universal insult. To them to be black was in itself self-evidently equivalent to all the derogatory associations now crystallized around that word.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the same with Shiptar. The language here is a testament to the degree of widespread collective dehumanization of Albanians in the Serbian public opinion. They don&#8217;t need other insults for Albanians: merely calling them Albanians will do, as if Albanian=monster.</p>
<p>So it&#8217;s not even on the same scale with calling a militant hyper-nationalist Serb a Chetnik. The Kosovar woman calling a little fascist that (whether he was a self-identified Chetnik or not) does not mean that she thinks all Serbs are Chetniks (or whatever qualities that term implies). You could pretty safely call militant Serbian nationalists Chetniks, without every Serb on the face of the Earth having any reason to be offended. Chetnik is used in the Balkans as a proxy for a militant chauvinistic Serb (and there are valid historical inferences to support this analogy); therefore it makes a qualitative distinction between Serbs fitting a certain behavioral pattern, versus the average Serb minding his business. It does not dehumanize Serbs wholescale.</p>
<p>Shiptar on the other hand makes no qualitative distinction, and it is a racist offense to all Albanians everywhere.</p>
<p>By the way, for what it&#8217;s worth, there are no equivalent of &#8216;Shiptar&#8217; to denigrate Serbs in the Albanian language. Serbs are called &#8216;Serb&#8217; which is a completely neutral adjective, like &#8216;American&#8217; or &#8216;Chinese&#8217;.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/06/the-road-to-kos.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/06/the-road-to-kos.php</a></p>
<p>Sorry for the long piece, but I find her analyze fascinating</p>
<p>Marriage between Albanians and Slavs is not rare, but almost always the groom is Albanian. Agim Ceku&#8217;s wife is Croatian, and several Kosovo politiacians&#8217; and personalities are married to Serb women, some of which have given splendid fighters to the UCK hehe. </p>
<p>In Albania we have had a muslim Slav from Montenegro, Ramiz Alia , become the head of state, succeeding to Enver Hoxha, also a member of the Macedonian minority become minister of Defense and even Prime Minister, that is Pandeli Majko. And we have the Greek minority politicians that have become ministers despite being less than 2% of the population and even a Torbesh like Namik Dokle easily managed to become . Also the wife of the current Prime Minister Sali Berisha is half Serbian from her mother&#8217;s side&#8230;.We never see this happening in Serbia yet the Serb hater can&#8217;t stop his (desperate) propaganda that Serbs intermarry with Bosnians when all Bosnians remember very well Serbs sniping Bosnian and occasionally Serb &#8216;traitorous&#8217; children from the hills of Sarajevo.</p>
<p>Oh, the topic is about denial&#8230;.it seems 78 days weren&#8217;t enough&#8230;</p>
<p>PS : Mr Muir , when is that piece on Macedonia Vs Greece coming out? W</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Muir</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/ten-years-since-the-bombs-started-falling/comment-page-1/#comment-24757</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Muir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 09:50:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5250#comment-24757</guid>
		<description>@23, the initial wave of re-Cyrillicization took place in the late 1980s and 1990s.  It had nothing to do with fear of globalization, and everything to do with nationalism and ethnic chauvinism.  Frex, it included forcing Cyrillic on Hungarian and Albanian communities that had never used it and didn&#039;t want it.

The exact same thing was happening elsewhere, of course; almost the first act of the new Croat nationalist government was to ban every script but Latin.


Doug M.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@23, the initial wave of re-Cyrillicization took place in the late 1980s and 1990s.  It had nothing to do with fear of globalization, and everything to do with nationalism and ethnic chauvinism.  Frex, it included forcing Cyrillic on Hungarian and Albanian communities that had never used it and didn&#8217;t want it.</p>
<p>The exact same thing was happening elsewhere, of course; almost the first act of the new Croat nationalist government was to ban every script but Latin.</p>
<p>Doug M.</p>
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		<title>By: 23Skidoo</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/ten-years-since-the-bombs-started-falling/comment-page-1/#comment-24755</link>
		<dc:creator>23Skidoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 08:23:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5250#comment-24755</guid>
		<description>@Douglas, well, people now probably feel that the Cyrillic script is threatened by globalisation and should be protected. This doesn&#039;t have to do anything with xenophobia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Douglas, well, people now probably feel that the Cyrillic script is threatened by globalisation and should be protected. This doesn&#8217;t have to do anything with xenophobia.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul C</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/ten-years-since-the-bombs-started-falling/comment-page-1/#comment-24740</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 20:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5250#comment-24740</guid>
		<description>Srdjan: actually, most people in the West realise that the Kosovo issue is extremely complex and runs very deep. It&#039;s so complex, in fact, that they just don&#039;t care about it.

On &quot;the youth&quot; in Serbia: I&#039;m not so sure that they&#039;re in as much of a state of denial as either you or Pejic believe, Douglas. I agree that there&#039;s a very strong current of nationalism still running throughout Serbian society, but I do believe that if Serbia starts to re-integrate into the European mainstream (and that&#039;s a whole other discussion) then people will have more opportunity to escape from it. Serbs will never stop being chippy, but to be honest that&#039;s part of their charm. Or something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Srdjan: actually, most people in the West realise that the Kosovo issue is extremely complex and runs very deep. It&#8217;s so complex, in fact, that they just don&#8217;t care about it.</p>
<p>On &#8220;the youth&#8221; in Serbia: I&#8217;m not so sure that they&#8217;re in as much of a state of denial as either you or Pejic believe, Douglas. I agree that there&#8217;s a very strong current of nationalism still running throughout Serbian society, but I do believe that if Serbia starts to re-integrate into the European mainstream (and that&#8217;s a whole other discussion) then people will have more opportunity to escape from it. Serbs will never stop being chippy, but to be honest that&#8217;s part of their charm. Or something.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Muir</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/ten-years-since-the-bombs-started-falling/comment-page-1/#comment-24739</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Muir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5250#comment-24739</guid>
		<description>Orthodox script: nobody&#039;s saying it&#039;s &quot;retrograde&quot; in the sense of &quot;primitive&quot; or &quot;backwards&quot;.  But it is a reversal of the earlier trend, which was more and more towards using the Latin alphabet.

Note that changes of script are hardly unknown in the region; Romania switched from Cyrillic to Latin in the 19th century and never looked back.

Shiptar:  I&#039;m sorry, but you&#039;re wrong.  Also -- no offense -- but the fact that you can say this?  Suggests that you don&#039;t actually know any Albanians.

If I&#039;m wrong, I invite you to make the experiment: go up to your Albanian acquaintance and say, &quot;Hey, Shiptar!&quot;  Let us know how it goes.


Doug M.

Doug M.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Orthodox script: nobody&#8217;s saying it&#8217;s &#8220;retrograde&#8221; in the sense of &#8220;primitive&#8221; or &#8220;backwards&#8221;.  But it is a reversal of the earlier trend, which was more and more towards using the Latin alphabet.</p>
<p>Note that changes of script are hardly unknown in the region; Romania switched from Cyrillic to Latin in the 19th century and never looked back.</p>
<p>Shiptar:  I&#8217;m sorry, but you&#8217;re wrong.  Also &#8212; no offense &#8212; but the fact that you can say this?  Suggests that you don&#8217;t actually know any Albanians.</p>
<p>If I&#8217;m wrong, I invite you to make the experiment: go up to your Albanian acquaintance and say, &#8220;Hey, Shiptar!&#8221;  Let us know how it goes.</p>
<p>Doug M.</p>
<p>Doug M.</p>
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		<title>By: Srdjan</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/ten-years-since-the-bombs-started-falling/comment-page-1/#comment-24726</link>
		<dc:creator>Srdjan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:29:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5250#comment-24726</guid>
		<description>...as for term &quot;Shiptar&quot;, it was in general usage until 1960&#039;s when it was declared non-politically correct. I remember reading some official documents of communist party /guerrila army from WWII and immediately after that, which were using the term for those Albanians siding with partisans, so it looks like it was not offensive term then...

Even Albanian communists from Kosovo at that time used term &quot;Shiptar&quot; when talkin in Serbian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;as for term &#8220;Shiptar&#8221;, it was in general usage until 1960&#8242;s when it was declared non-politically correct. I remember reading some official documents of communist party /guerrila army from WWII and immediately after that, which were using the term for those Albanians siding with partisans, so it looks like it was not offensive term then&#8230;</p>
<p>Even Albanian communists from Kosovo at that time used term &#8220;Shiptar&#8221; when talkin in Serbian.</p>
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