This is a moderated forum. You can talk freely here, but please keep it polite.

Doug M.

You intentionally hide my word that Albanian have own “mother” country - it is Albania, and in UN is clearly written that minority, living out from mother country don’t have right for independence.

Yes - Albanian are natives - I agree with You, but JUST ON ALBANIAN SOIL! And You again intentionally forgotted that Serbian people was that accepted all Albanian refugee from Albania! You know well what E. Hodza think about his own nation - and Serbian help them well - You wish to tell me that it is regard for helping?

Saying that crime in Kossovo are lower than in Yugoslavia is correct, because when was Yugoslavia, in Kossovo Authonomy was order, and existed very great respect for law, respect for woman, respect for elders, respect for parents, today it is opposite!

Regarding education, that is fine possible for You personally - but ask ALL population today, if they have better education before self-independence or today, I will say that all answer will be negative.

I, personally, I’m not Serb, for Your info - in Yugoslavia, and today in Serbia, not all people are Serbian nationality, and will agree with You that Serbian are in big trouble regarding natality, but is is just because economy, and no one want to made lot of children and see them going hungry - it is main reason for not doing, like You say “plenty” of babies.

In the end - I will ask just one favor from You - if You don’t lived in Yugoslavia, don’t talk nonsense, it is not fair!

And next - they (Albanian) have own “mother country” - it is independent Albania, where all who don’t like and participate in Serbia - can live without problem to “mother” country.

You do have your mother country as well, Russia. Go back there. You came as slaves (you were known as Servs /Servia until 1900’s) to fight the Avars and never left. Go now to mother Russia. Albanians are natives and you have been the biggest troublemakers since Russia started to use you for its agenda.

After - when separatist, exiled persons, drug trafficers, and other - start to made some kind of independence, start violence, start to kill and rape old people from non albanian nationality - Serbian/Yugoslavian Army made action.

Insults coming from a nation that glorifies soldiers who raped children in front of their parents and brought back the concentration camps in Europe are kinda funny, but what you said is a lie. Crime in Kosova was LOWER than anywhere in Yugo, and do not take my word for it:

http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=rape%20kosovo%20sanu&um=1&sa=N&tab=wp
“None of the rape stories was ever substantiated.”

“While Serbs suffered from a variety of factors in Kosovo, the charges of mass rape, systematic annihilation of Serb sacral heritage, and genocide were pure [guess what?]”

“For example, despite the claims that Serbian women were being systematically
raped in Kosovo, Kosovo actually had the lowest level of rape of any of the…”

Why do Serb nationalists have lying as a second religion?

Yes - that many in comic, satirical TV program, or in humor, portraied Albanian like less intelligent, but it was because most of them was uneducated, and most of them refused to learn and talk Serbian language, and that resulted in some “cliche” about nation.

It’s OK, we’ll be fine with education. Russia opened colleges for its offspring when we couldn’t even learn our language thanks to Serbs and Turks.

Apparently it hasn’t done you much, you’re getting smaller and are a third world economy. Both Croatia and Slovenia wipe the floor with you. Albania will do so as well in 5 years.
This deprivation of education thing backfired on Serbs as well: stayed at home and had plenty of babies, something that is still going on while are losing 30,000 a year.

Yes - that many in comic, satirical TV program, or in humor, portraied Albanian like less intelligent, but it was because most of them was uneducated, and most of them refused to learn and talk Serbian language, and that resulted in some “cliche” about nation.

From other hands, culture, tradition, and “way of life” from Albanian, was so different that other people simply can not understand it.

After - when separatist, exiled persons, drug trafficers, and other - start to made some kind of independence, start violence, start to kill and rape old people from non albanian nationality - Serbian/Yugoslavian Army made action.

Someone here made comment that majority have right for independence - but same person forgott that albanian are and was MINORITY in Serbia!!!!!

And next - they (Albanian) have own “mother country” - it is independent Albania, where all who don’t like and participate in Serbia - can live without problem to “mother” country.

Just to mention that when was Yugoslavia and president Tito, same Albanian was so happy to live in Serbia, because ALL citizen of Yugoslavia, donated by cash, donated by working, donated by economically and build one modern place to live - when all that finished, Albanian population was left without this “goods” and unable to find solution other than violence.

I personally think, that this kind of separation can not be accepted, and will not be recognized in UN, fact that around 55 countries accepted and recognized Kossovo independence - is just picture of USA controlled countries - nothing else.

‘Albanians’ fought with the Turks and against the Turks, just as we fought with the Russians and against them in the Turko-Russian wars and Stradioti we Albanian merc knights fighting all over Europe . Mostly it was over gun rights, desire to be left alone in day to day matters, taxes and later over our refusal to ‘Ottomanize,’ but they did happen. Albanian ‘Muslims’ rose against the Sultan and many essentially had their ‘Kingdoms.’ On top of my head I can think of Ali Pasha of Tepelen, Mehemet Ali of Egypt and Bushatliu in the North. The Greek revolution–helped by Russia, France and England–started when Turkey attacked Ali Pasha who pushed his luck ;). 20,000 troops were busy for over a year fighting him, when they could have fought the Greeks (and the ‘Arvanites’ of Albanian descent who led the revolution.)

1900’s Catholic Ency: “It was an Albanian who led the Greeks in the War of Independence, and again an Albanian who commanded the Turkish troops sent to quell the rebellion. The Kings of Naples kept an Albanian regiment styled the Royal Macedonian, and the famous resistance of Silistria in 1854 is due to dogged Albanian bravery”

On the other hand, the ‘Albanians’ from Egypt (Mehemet Ali’s dynasty) were sent to crush the rebellion. The ‘Greek’ revolution was actually called an “Albanian affair” and even Albanians serving under Turkish army offered to switch side at Arta and Tripolliza. http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9D02E5DE1531E233A25753C3A9619C946096D6CF (PDF file from 1911)

After 1880’s, when we knew that Turkey wasn’t helping us defend from Serbs /Greek territorial claims (Serbs wanted 1/2 of TODAY’S Albania too, Greeks the other half) we rose, Muslim and Christians, from Kosovo to Southern Albania. Of course I did not mention Skenderbeu, who won 13 battles (13+0=13) more than Lazar, and under whose flag ‘Muslim’ Albanians fought the Serbs in 1990’s and of course it is still flown despite the new Kosovo flag.

There was no ‘Albania’ and clearly no one policy, just as with all the rest of the world. Even in 1389, Serbs were fighting Serbs in the Kosovo battle. People and local rulers did what they had to do over 500 years. For example, Serbs brag that they ‘kept the faith’ but fought with other Christians on behalf of the Sultan. Does that count ;)?

And Albanians will always point out that “we are the reason why Turks never occupied Italy” and “we defended Europe for more than 25 years”. (when you think about it the Italy thing does make some sense).

Of course there are a world of differences between 19 and 20 th century European colonialism and the Ottoman period in the Balkans. At the same time, Leopold’s Congo is the worst example of colonialism, not a typical example. British India or Dutch Indonesia are other examples.

Wether the Ottomans were relatively bad or good at the time is a separate discussion. What I was referring to was the fact that in both cases, Ottoman Balkans and European colonialism, it left lasting scars on the regions and countries which emerged. There’s a parallel between Serbian hatred of Albanians (and vice versa) and say Tutsis and Hutus or Malays and ethnic Chinese. Sure, these people might have come into conflict with each other without colonialism, but there’s no doubt that it added to the conflict and hatred.

Finally, it’s always sad and unproductive when neighbours hate and don’t communicate with each other. The best way to get over it is usually for both to feel confident and secure and be able to overlook historical grievances by having something else (hopefully positive) to focus on.

In the Serbs and Albanians conflict I think it would be best to split Kosovo between the two, build a wall, move any populations and historical buildings that end up on the wrong side and then let both sides focus on developing themselves for a while instead of focusing on battling each other. Sure, some Serbs will resent ‘loosing’ most of Kosovo and some Albanians will resent not getting all of Kosovo, but it’s reasonable to expect that most will be able to accept this compromise. In the end, maybe, just maybe, the benefits from cooperation will enable people on both sides to see that the benefits from cooperation outweigh the potential reward from violence.

However, award Kosovo all to one side (as the Russians and the US are both suggesting, though to different sides) will surely perpetuate the conflict. Where talking about another Alsace here…

Also, the first couple of centuries were more good than bad — the Ottomans brought peace and prosperity, back in the day. And the old Empire was race-neutral; Greeks, Serbs and Albanians could become generals, ministers, and grand viziers.

Things went bad when the Empire started to decay, but that came later.

Doug M.