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	<title>Comments on: Montenegro III: Am Not, Are So</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/montenegro-iii-am-not-are-so/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Doug M.</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/montenegro-iii-am-not-are-so/#comment-13884</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Mar 2006 01:19:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2422#comment-13884</guid>
		<description>Acu tetigistus, Jim.

I'm pro-secession when the secessionist group is distinctly different, has a just cause, would clearly be better off as a separate country, and when integration is clearly not a plausible alternative.  

Kosovo satisfies three and a half out of four of those.  Macedonian Albanians, maybe two out of four.  Montenegro, none out of four.

I'm just not seeing it.


Doug M.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Acu tetigistus, Jim.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m pro-secession when the secessionist group is distinctly different, has a just cause, would clearly be better off as a separate country, and when integration is clearly not a plausible alternative.  </p>
<p>Kosovo satisfies three and a half out of four of those.  Macedonian Albanians, maybe two out of four.  Montenegro, none out of four.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m just not seeing it.</p>
<p>Doug M.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/montenegro-iii-am-not-are-so/#comment-13883</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Mar 2006 14:28:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2422#comment-13883</guid>
		<description>And when do you stop carving off parts of states because a segment of the population feels different and wants independence?

The very reason why the international community has studiously avoided recognising seccessionist movements for the last fifty years is that once you start to ackowledge an unfettered right to self-determination you open up the way to state fragmentation on a massive scale. Why should the Albanians in Macedonia have the right to their own state or to unite with Kosovo and not the Hungarians in Vojvodina or Romania. And what about the Bosnian Serbs uniting with Serbia? How about the Muslims of Western Thrace joining Turkey? What about Nagorno-Karabakh, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Trans-Dniestra, Northern Cyprus, the Tamils of Sri Lanka. The list goes on.

The alternative route since the end of the Second World War has therefore been to promote political equality and full respect for minority rights. This is the model that we have sought to implement in any number of other cases, even in cases where the minority feels fundamentally different. Abandoning this model - even in the case of Kosovo - has the potential to increase international conflict and not limit it. Already Russia has said that Kosovo should be a precedent for South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Are we really ready to turn our backs on established practice and tacitly encourage separatism over reconcilliation and democratisation within existing borders?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And when do you stop carving off parts of states because a segment of the population feels different and wants independence?</p>
<p>The very reason why the international community has studiously avoided recognising seccessionist movements for the last fifty years is that once you start to ackowledge an unfettered right to self-determination you open up the way to state fragmentation on a massive scale. Why should the Albanians in Macedonia have the right to their own state or to unite with Kosovo and not the Hungarians in Vojvodina or Romania. And what about the Bosnian Serbs uniting with Serbia? How about the Muslims of Western Thrace joining Turkey? What about Nagorno-Karabakh, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Trans-Dniestra, Northern Cyprus, the Tamils of Sri Lanka. The list goes on.</p>
<p>The alternative route since the end of the Second World War has therefore been to promote political equality and full respect for minority rights. This is the model that we have sought to implement in any number of other cases, even in cases where the minority feels fundamentally different. Abandoning this model - even in the case of Kosovo - has the potential to increase international conflict and not limit it. Already Russia has said that Kosovo should be a precedent for South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Are we really ready to turn our backs on established practice and tacitly encourage separatism over reconcilliation and democratisation within existing borders?</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/montenegro-iii-am-not-are-so/#comment-13882</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Mar 2006 08:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2422#comment-13882</guid>
		<description>Montenegro needs its independence. And frankly the Albanian area of Macedonia does as well. I was just there for six months ending this winter. Half the population considers itself non-Macedonian. It certainly is much closer to the Kosovo situation: downtrodden, persecuted, fudnimentally different population (different religion, different language, different sense of national identity). No question it will happen. better sooner than later. They are not integrated seriously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Montenegro needs its independence. And frankly the Albanian area of Macedonia does as well. I was just there for six months ending this winter. Half the population considers itself non-Macedonian. It certainly is much closer to the Kosovo situation: downtrodden, persecuted, fudnimentally different population (different religion, different language, different sense of national identity). No question it will happen. better sooner than later. They are not integrated seriously.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/montenegro-iii-am-not-are-so/#comment-13881</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Mar 2006 14:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2422#comment-13881</guid>
		<description>I really enjoyed the debate. It would be good to see more of it. On the main subject, I also agree that independence does not make a lot of sense, for the various reasons outlined. The current deal is extremely beneficial to Montenegro. Still, if they want to go it alone and fend for themselves then so be it. With better growth rates and a more diverse economy, the main winner from the split is actually likely to Serbia. By the way, it is also good to see that Montenegro's dirty little secret about its involvement in the Yugoslav wars was also raised. I have often felt that the current situation is rather akin to situation with Germany and Austria after WWII. Austria managed to get off very lightly for its role.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really enjoyed the debate. It would be good to see more of it. On the main subject, I also agree that independence does not make a lot of sense, for the various reasons outlined. The current deal is extremely beneficial to Montenegro. Still, if they want to go it alone and fend for themselves then so be it. With better growth rates and a more diverse economy, the main winner from the split is actually likely to Serbia. By the way, it is also good to see that Montenegro&#8217;s dirty little secret about its involvement in the Yugoslav wars was also raised. I have often felt that the current situation is rather akin to situation with Germany and Austria after WWII. Austria managed to get off very lightly for its role.</p>
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		<title>By: Charly</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/montenegro-iii-am-not-are-so/#comment-13880</link>
		<dc:creator>Charly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 04:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2422#comment-13880</guid>
		<description>Didn't the Croatian troubles start with a foorball game?

ps. The real reason why Montenegro shouldn't become independend: Another Balkan country that will vote on other Balkan countries in the Eurovision Song Contest. How can any other win?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Didn&#8217;t the Croatian troubles start with a foorball game?</p>
<p>ps. The real reason why Montenegro shouldn&#8217;t become independend: Another Balkan country that will vote on other Balkan countries in the Eurovision Song Contest. How can any other win?</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/montenegro-iii-am-not-are-so/#comment-13879</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 00:11:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2422#comment-13879</guid>
		<description>Let's not be snobby here - if the Eurovision Song Contest was good enough to signal the start of Portugal's 1974 Carnation revolution, it's good enough to help mark the divorce of Serbia &#038; Montenegro

(Wikipedia has the detail for those of you unfamiliar with Eurovision's previous significant intrusion into European politics: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_revolution )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s not be snobby here - if the Eurovision Song Contest was good enough to signal the start of Portugal&#8217;s 1974 Carnation revolution, it&#8217;s good enough to help mark the divorce of Serbia &#038; Montenegro</p>
<p>(Wikipedia has the detail for those of you unfamiliar with Eurovision&#8217;s previous significant intrusion into European politics: </p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_revolution" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_revolution</a> )</p>
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		<title>By: Guy</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/montenegro-iii-am-not-are-so/#comment-13878</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 21:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2422#comment-13878</guid>
		<description>"Can't they do it like normal people over a football game. The Eurovision Song Contest makes it sound such like a farce"

It does sound a bit 'uncool', doesn't it? :-)

Disclaimer: not that there's anything wrong with the Song Festival</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Can&#8217;t they do it like normal people over a football game. The Eurovision Song Contest makes it sound such like a farce&#8221;</p>
<p>It does sound a bit &#8216;uncool&#8217;, doesn&#8217;t it? <img src='http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
Disclaimer: not that there&#8217;s anything wrong with the Song Festival</p>
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		<title>By: Charly</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/montenegro-iii-am-not-are-so/#comment-13877</link>
		<dc:creator>Charly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 20:41:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2422#comment-13877</guid>
		<description>Can't they do it like normal people over a football game. The Eurovision Song Contest makes it sound such like a farce</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can&#8217;t they do it like normal people over a football game. The Eurovision Song Contest makes it sound such like a farce</p>
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		<title>By: Guy</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/montenegro-iii-am-not-are-so/#comment-13876</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 19:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2422#comment-13876</guid>
		<description>Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4805014.stm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Link: <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4805014.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4805014.stm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Guy</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/montenegro-iii-am-not-are-so/#comment-13875</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 19:35:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2422#comment-13875</guid>
		<description>And in spite of this great debate, independence could possibly be decided by this...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And in spite of this great debate, independence could possibly be decided by this&#8230;</p>
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