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	<title>Comments on: EU 2009 open thread</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/eu-2009-open-thread/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 15:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Blogactiv Team</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/eu-2009-open-thread/#comment-20953</link>
		<dc:creator>Blogactiv Team</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:00:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3253#comment-20953</guid>
		<description>Interesting article! 
What will be the future of Europe now? Check this article from Michael Berendt. A good analysis of the current situation where the EU stands.
http://michaelberendt.blogactiv.eu/2008/06/18/enlargement-in-doubt-as-ireland-scuppers-the-lisbon-treaty/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting article!<br />
What will be the future of Europe now? Check this article from Michael Berendt. A good analysis of the current situation where the EU stands.<br />
<a href="http://michaelberendt.blogactiv.eu/2008/06/18/enlargement-in-doubt-as-ireland-scuppers-the-lisbon-treaty/" rel="nofollow">http://michaelberendt.blogactiv.eu/2008/06/18/enlargement-in-doubt-as-ireland-scuppers-the-lisbon-treaty/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Oliver</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/eu-2009-open-thread/#comment-20945</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3253#comment-20945</guid>
		<description>What is an issue at hand? If we were to vote on road construction, would you allow us to consider the effect of increased fuel consumption on the likelihood of war in the Persian Gulf?

If I think the treaty would in the long run leading to the member states losing the power over war and peace, would that be relevant? You can rightly argue the current treaty doesn't say so, but I might answer that I might not be allowed to vote later on, so I better stop it now, while I can.

Apart from factual errors about the actual text, which are trivial, can you think about a way that is neutral and based on facts to determine which effects the treaty would have had? Or which of them we are allowed to consider?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is an issue at hand? If we were to vote on road construction, would you allow us to consider the effect of increased fuel consumption on the likelihood of war in the Persian Gulf?</p>
<p>If I think the treaty would in the long run leading to the member states losing the power over war and peace, would that be relevant? You can rightly argue the current treaty doesn&#8217;t say so, but I might answer that I might not be allowed to vote later on, so I better stop it now, while I can.</p>
<p>Apart from factual errors about the actual text, which are trivial, can you think about a way that is neutral and based on facts to determine which effects the treaty would have had? Or which of them we are allowed to consider?</p>
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		<title>By: Toader</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/eu-2009-open-thread/#comment-20944</link>
		<dc:creator>Toader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3253#comment-20944</guid>
		<description>Sure, I don't see why that would be a problem. 

I realize that it may be impossible to get rid of all the wrong ideas people have about the issues they're voting on (whether for or against the treaty), but I object to purposefully reinforcing those misconceptions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure, I don&#8217;t see why that would be a problem. </p>
<p>I realize that it may be impossible to get rid of all the wrong ideas people have about the issues they&#8217;re voting on (whether for or against the treaty), but I object to purposefully reinforcing those misconceptions.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/eu-2009-open-thread/#comment-20943</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:18:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3253#comment-20943</guid>
		<description>Toader, I guess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Toader, I guess.</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/eu-2009-open-thread/#comment-20942</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:15:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3253#comment-20942</guid>
		<description>The treaty of Lisbon indeed passed nowhere by referendum.
Ray, who decides what is relevant for the issue at hand?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The treaty of Lisbon indeed passed nowhere by referendum.<br />
Ray, who decides what is relevant for the issue at hand?</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/eu-2009-open-thread/#comment-20941</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3253#comment-20941</guid>
		<description>The most annoying thing is the level of misinformation, like this idea that the EUC or LT passed nowhere by referendum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The most annoying thing is the level of misinformation, like this idea that the EUC or LT passed nowhere by referendum.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/eu-2009-open-thread/#comment-20929</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:57:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3253#comment-20929</guid>
		<description>okay then, we'll just have to have a vote - referendum or election, I don't mind - where everybody is completely informed about the issues at hand and ignores all false information, and use that as the basis for the decision. that should be easy enough to organise and agree on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>okay then, we&#8217;ll just have to have a vote - referendum or election, I don&#8217;t mind - where everybody is completely informed about the issues at hand and ignores all false information, and use that as the basis for the decision. that should be easy enough to organise and agree on.</p>
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		<title>By: Toader</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/eu-2009-open-thread/#comment-20928</link>
		<dc:creator>Toader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3253#comment-20928</guid>
		<description>@ Ray:

The thing is, the referenda in the three countries (well, Ireland at least) that rejected the Constitution/Lisbon Treaty also included false information (about abortions, tax rates, etc.). At the point where people vote on false information, it is no longer a true vote on the actual issue at hand. Also, many people use EU referendums to voice displeasure at their own government as much as they do to vote on the actual treaty in question. Lastly, it's possible to safely say that most of Eastern Europe and Southern Europe would have approved the treaty in referendums. And direct democracy is not always the most liberal course of action (see http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/minorities-and-integration/illiberal-direct-democracy/).

Just as it would be illegitimate to have the rest of the EU impose its will on Ireland and force Ireland to approve the treaty, it is, if not technically illegitimate, extremely maddening that Ireland can impose its will on the rest of the EU.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Ray:</p>
<p>The thing is, the referenda in the three countries (well, Ireland at least) that rejected the Constitution/Lisbon Treaty also included false information (about abortions, tax rates, etc.). At the point where people vote on false information, it is no longer a true vote on the actual issue at hand. Also, many people use EU referendums to voice displeasure at their own government as much as they do to vote on the actual treaty in question. Lastly, it&#8217;s possible to safely say that most of Eastern Europe and Southern Europe would have approved the treaty in referendums. And direct democracy is not always the most liberal course of action (see <a href="http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/minorities-and-integration/illiberal-direct-democracy/" rel="nofollow">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/minorities-and-integration/illiberal-direct-democracy/</a>).</p>
<p>Just as it would be illegitimate to have the rest of the EU impose its will on Ireland and force Ireland to approve the treaty, it is, if not technically illegitimate, extremely maddening that Ireland can impose its will on the rest of the EU.</p>
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		<title>By: rz</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/eu-2009-open-thread/#comment-20927</link>
		<dc:creator>rz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 17:37:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3253#comment-20927</guid>
		<description>@Ray:
A total of 5 countries voted either on the Constitution or the Reform Treaty. Spain and Luxemburg voted in favor of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ray:<br />
A total of 5 countries voted either on the Constitution or the Reform Treaty. Spain and Luxemburg voted in favor of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/transition-and-accession/eu-2009-open-thread/#comment-20926</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 17:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3253#comment-20926</guid>
		<description>So, Toader, you really think ignoring the votes of the only three countries to have referenda is the best way to reduce the democratic deficit, overcome euro-scepticism, and build support for further integration?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, Toader, you really think ignoring the votes of the only three countries to have referenda is the best way to reduce the democratic deficit, overcome euro-scepticism, and build support for further integration?</p>
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