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	<title>Comments on: Words Said In More Than Jest</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/words-said-in-more-than-jest/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/words-said-in-more-than-jest/#comment-12701</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jan 2006 20:00:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>He's not being detained indefinitely. He's being detained until Friday, when the cabinet can meet and have him dismissed. 
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He&#8217;s not being detained indefinitely. He&#8217;s being detained until Friday, when the cabinet can meet and have him dismissed.</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/words-said-in-more-than-jest/#comment-12700</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jan 2006 19:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2269#comment-12700</guid>
		<description>I shouldn't post when just woken up ;-)

Well, but this has all the signs of making an example of a man. It may be perfectly legal, but it is not right. This is not a serious threat. Else the government would take much more drastic measures.
It uses exceptional penal power for political means. Justice isn't done that way. Such penal powers are justified only in emergencies.
That man deserves early retirement, but not detention.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I shouldn&#8217;t post when just woken up <img src='http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
Well, but this has all the signs of making an example of a man. It may be perfectly legal, but it is not right. This is not a serious threat. Else the government would take much more drastic measures.<br />
It uses exceptional penal power for political means. Justice isn&#8217;t done that way. Such penal powers are justified only in emergencies.<br />
That man deserves early retirement, but not detention.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Clarke</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/words-said-in-more-than-jest/#comment-12699</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Clarke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jan 2006 14:18:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2269#comment-12699</guid>
		<description>Would you please clarify that?
 A government minister orders a detention without bothering with a warrant or any such thing? What is going on? On the grounds of citing the constitution is rebellious?
--

It's illegal in Spain for members of the armed forces to make political statements. In this situation, the Defence Minister is invested with the duty and power to ask the military police to detain the offender.

As should be pretty obvious from the story, 'citing the constitution' was not the problem here. The problem is that even after a generation of peaceful democracy, the Spanish army still contains elements opposed to democratic reform. Elements who are willing to overthrow the government should they deem it necessary. The very act of making this speech was a focused effort to disrupt the democratic reforms currently being debated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would you please clarify that?<br />
 A government minister orders a detention without bothering with a warrant or any such thing? What is going on? On the grounds of citing the constitution is rebellious?<br />
&#8211;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s illegal in Spain for members of the armed forces to make political statements. In this situation, the Defence Minister is invested with the duty and power to ask the military police to detain the offender.</p>
<p>As should be pretty obvious from the story, &#8216;citing the constitution&#8217; was not the problem here. The problem is that even after a generation of peaceful democracy, the Spanish army still contains elements opposed to democratic reform. Elements who are willing to overthrow the government should they deem it necessary. The very act of making this speech was a focused effort to disrupt the democratic reforms currently being debated.</p>
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		<title>By: Edward</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/words-said-in-more-than-jest/#comment-12698</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jan 2006 14:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2269#comment-12698</guid>
		<description>"I would think he would make the same comments about an islamist takeover and be relieved."

But what if he simply said that he didn't think the Kurds should be allowed to use their language, and that people like Orhan Pamuk should not be allowed to 'denigrate Turkish history', and that if necessary the army could come out of barracks to make sure, you agree, I take it, that that would not be a major indication that Turkey was fundamentally undemocratic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I would think he would make the same comments about an islamist takeover and be relieved.&#8221;</p>
<p>But what if he simply said that he didn&#8217;t think the Kurds should be allowed to use their language, and that people like Orhan Pamuk should not be allowed to &#8216;denigrate Turkish history&#8217;, and that if necessary the army could come out of barracks to make sure, you agree, I take it, that that would not be a major indication that Turkey was fundamentally undemocratic.</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/words-said-in-more-than-jest/#comment-12697</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jan 2006 14:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2269#comment-12697</guid>
		<description>And I repeat, would you be laughing all this off so easily if the statement had been made about Kurdish autonomy by a Turkish general, rather than Catalan and Basque autonomy by a Spanish one?

I would think he would make the same comments about an islamist takeover and be relieved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I repeat, would you be laughing all this off so easily if the statement had been made about Kurdish autonomy by a Turkish general, rather than Catalan and Basque autonomy by a Spanish one?</p>
<p>I would think he would make the same comments about an islamist takeover and be relieved.</p>
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		<title>By: Edward</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/words-said-in-more-than-jest/#comment-12696</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jan 2006 12:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2269#comment-12696</guid>
		<description>"But detention by cabinet order?"

Hasn't he rather been confined to base by his commanding officer here. And being an officer and a gentleman, he's allowed to consider his home his castle.

Doesn't the ordinary citizen forgo the right to bear arms as part of an implicit pact with the state, and isn't one part of that pact the idea that those authorised to bear arms don't then threaten to turn them on the civilian citizens.

Maybe living in a mature democracy you are not so sensitive to this issue as those who have seen threat turned into practice in relatively recent times.

And I repeat, would you be laughing all this off so easily if the statement had been made about Kurdish autonomy by a Turkish general, rather than Catalan and Basque autonomy by a Spanish one?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But detention by cabinet order?&#8221;</p>
<p>Hasn&#8217;t he rather been confined to base by his commanding officer here. And being an officer and a gentleman, he&#8217;s allowed to consider his home his castle.</p>
<p>Doesn&#8217;t the ordinary citizen forgo the right to bear arms as part of an implicit pact with the state, and isn&#8217;t one part of that pact the idea that those authorised to bear arms don&#8217;t then threaten to turn them on the civilian citizens.</p>
<p>Maybe living in a mature democracy you are not so sensitive to this issue as those who have seen threat turned into practice in relatively recent times.</p>
<p>And I repeat, would you be laughing all this off so easily if the statement had been made about Kurdish autonomy by a Turkish general, rather than Catalan and Basque autonomy by a Spanish one?</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/words-said-in-more-than-jest/#comment-12695</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jan 2006 04:04:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>No habeas corpus in Spain?
Are there no military judges? Granted, free speech may be limited for soldiers. Strip him of all his duties, premature retirement - fine.
But detention by cabinet order?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No habeas corpus in Spain?<br />
Are there no military judges? Granted, free speech may be limited for soldiers. Strip him of all his duties, premature retirement - fine.<br />
But detention by cabinet order?</p>
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		<title>By: Edward</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/words-said-in-more-than-jest/#comment-12694</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jan 2006 18:35:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2269#comment-12694</guid>
		<description>"Would you please clarify that?"

Well I can't clarify very much, I'm not a constitutional lawyer, still less an expert on the Spanish Constitution.

Since the detention has been ordered by the minister of defence, my guess is the relevant law here is military law. The speech could be interpreted as a call to insurrection, although of course it wasn't really, it was just the expression of a bigoted opinion. But technically....

I don't really see what you are worried about. The action of the defence minister is perfectly legal. Obviously if Aguade wants to participate in politics, he will soon be a civilian again, and will be free to do so.

Meantime the Spanish parliament should also feel free to debate issues as it sees fit without having to worry about whether or not the Spanish army agrees. If this was happening in Turkey, someone or other would be busy pointing out how the armed forces are still in control there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Would you please clarify that?&#8221;</p>
<p>Well I can&#8217;t clarify very much, I&#8217;m not a constitutional lawyer, still less an expert on the Spanish Constitution.</p>
<p>Since the detention has been ordered by the minister of defence, my guess is the relevant law here is military law. The speech could be interpreted as a call to insurrection, although of course it wasn&#8217;t really, it was just the expression of a bigoted opinion. But technically&#8230;.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t really see what you are worried about. The action of the defence minister is perfectly legal. Obviously if Aguade wants to participate in politics, he will soon be a civilian again, and will be free to do so.</p>
<p>Meantime the Spanish parliament should also feel free to debate issues as it sees fit without having to worry about whether or not the Spanish army agrees. If this was happening in Turkey, someone or other would be busy pointing out how the armed forces are still in control there.</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/words-said-in-more-than-jest/#comment-12693</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jan 2006 15:15:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2269#comment-12693</guid>
		<description>Would you please clarify that?
A government minister orders a detention without bothering with a warrant or any such thing? What is going on? On the grounds of citing the constitution is rebellious?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would you please clarify that?<br />
A government minister orders a detention without bothering with a warrant or any such thing? What is going on? On the grounds of citing the constitution is rebellious?</p>
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