Comments on: Twenty Twenty Vision http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/twenty-twenty-vision/ European Opinion Sat, 10 Jan 2009 03:49:16 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: Frans G http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/twenty-twenty-vision/#comment-8589 Frans G Tue, 07 Jun 2005 06:20:36 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1447#comment-8589 @Sredna. "You?re missing the point. You make it sound as the referendum was about forcing the shops to be open on Sundays and making people go out and shop. Not the case, Frans." I miss point all the time. Our world is very complex these days and I am human. But of course I did not miss this specific point. Perhaps you should reread my comments towards Rob. I had the debate in Dutch with a few dozen people, remember and of course some used the same argument. I am a atheist. Really, one of those very few. So it is not that I want "control other peoples lives". My objection to your line of reasoning is that you want to take one kind of interests (important: no to hinder entrepeneurs / enterprises too much) absolute. The freedom of one has effects on the freedom of others. Sometimes on a completely different issue. It can be hard to decide on those matters. But we should remain pragmatic. I liked the comments of the chairman of the organization of shops: he expressed his *condoleances* to the members of his organizations who did want shops open all sundays and he congratulated the other group of his members who opposed it! @Sredna. “You?re missing the point. You make it sound as the referendum was about forcing the shops to be open on Sundays and making people go out and shop. Not the case, Frans.”
I miss point all the time. Our world is very complex these days and I am human.
But of course I did not miss this specific point. Perhaps you should reread my comments towards Rob.
I had the debate in Dutch with a few dozen people, remember and of course some used the same argument. I am a atheist. Really, one of those very few. So it is not that I want “control other peoples lives”. My objection to your line of reasoning is that you want to take one kind of interests (important: no to hinder entrepeneurs / enterprises too much) absolute. The freedom of one has effects on the freedom of others. Sometimes on a completely different issue. It can be hard to decide on those matters. But we should remain pragmatic.
I liked the comments of the chairman of the organization of shops: he expressed his *condoleances* to the members of his organizations who did want shops open all sundays and he congratulated the other group of his members who opposed it!

]]> By: Sredna http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/twenty-twenty-vision/#comment-8588 Sredna Fri, 03 Jun 2005 21:45:08 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1447#comment-8588 Free opening hours means flexibility for all; shop owners, shop employees, customers. My closest grocery store ICA is open 8-22 every day of the week and offers very good service and quality. Close by there are two Sevenelevens open around the clock and a Netto budget store open 8-20, of course every day. These places are within 200 meters from my home. More people work in these shops than if they were closed on evenings and Sundays, and I assume that the owners find it profitable to keep the opening hours that they've chosen. And I can buy my food whenever I find it convenient. There are things about the Swedish system I dislike, but in this area I think we've got it right. Free opening hours means flexibility for all; shop owners, shop employees, customers. My closest grocery store ICA is open 8-22 every day of the week and offers very good service and quality. Close by there are two Sevenelevens open around the clock and a Netto budget store open 8-20, of course every day. These places are within 200 meters from my home.

More people work in these shops than if they were closed on evenings and Sundays, and I assume that the owners find it profitable to keep the opening hours that they’ve chosen. And I can buy my food whenever I find it convenient.

There are things about the Swedish system I dislike, but in this area I think we’ve got it right.

]]> By: Rahel http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/twenty-twenty-vision/#comment-8587 Rahel Fri, 03 Jun 2005 20:41:35 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1447#comment-8587 Allowing shops to open on Sundays may seem like more freedom, but what it will actually mean to most small buisnesses and employees is less freedom. Large chains will open whenever they can and will force smaller shops to either open on Sundays or close, and employees will have to agree to work on Sundays if they want a job. It's only a little more convenient for the shoppers (since everything is open Saturday and there are also evening hours one day a week in most places). I don't see how it's worth it. Allowing shops to open on Sundays may seem like more freedom, but what it will actually mean to most small buisnesses and employees is less freedom. Large chains will open whenever they can and will force smaller shops to either open on Sundays or close, and employees will have to agree to work on Sundays if they want a job. It’s only a little more convenient for the shoppers (since everything is open Saturday and there are also evening hours one day a week in most places). I don’t see how it’s worth it.

]]> By: Sredna http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/twenty-twenty-vision/#comment-8586 Sredna Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:26:43 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1447#comment-8586 @Frans G: You're missing the point. You make it sound as the referendum was about forcing the shops to be open on Sundays and making people go out and shop. Not the case, Frans. Shop owners should in my opinion be allowed to keep their shops open whenever they want. If people don't show up certain days of the week, say Sundays, it would simply be bad business to keep the shops open on Sundays. And if you don't want to shop on Sundays, well don't. But don't control other peoples lives, please. @Frans G: You’re missing the point. You make it sound as the referendum was about forcing the shops to be open on Sundays and making people go out and shop. Not the case, Frans.

Shop owners should in my opinion be allowed to keep their shops open whenever they want. If people don’t show up certain days of the week, say Sundays, it would simply be bad business to keep the shops open on Sundays. And if you don’t want to shop on Sundays, well don’t. But don’t control other peoples lives, please.

]]> By: Frans G http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/twenty-twenty-vision/#comment-8585 Frans G Fri, 03 Jun 2005 05:12:35 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1447#comment-8585 @Ferrand: "that this may be a "subliminal" reason for the Dutch NEE ?" Who can tell about subliminal reasons? "We" get away with it (the No-vote) very well but it should have been a reason open to everyone. But there again we face the lack of European politics and European politicians: I am afraid mr Zalm outside our country is considered a Don Quichotte for pointing the finger to Italy (before the introduction of the €) and to Germany and France (for not following the rules of the SGP). Part of the problem here in my opinion is that he does not directly communicate with the European public but only with the Dutch public and political leaders of the other EU-membercountries. @Ferrand: “that this may be a “subliminal” reason for the Dutch NEE ?”
Who can tell about subliminal reasons?
“We” get away with it (the No-vote) very well but it should have been a reason open to everyone.
But there again we face the lack of European politics and European politicians: I am afraid mr Zalm outside our country is considered a Don Quichotte for pointing the finger to Italy (before the introduction of the €) and to Germany and France (for not following the rules of the SGP). Part of the problem here in my opinion is that he does not directly communicate with the European public but only with the Dutch public and political leaders of the other EU-membercountries.

]]> By: Frans G http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/twenty-twenty-vision/#comment-8584 Frans G Fri, 03 Jun 2005 04:59:33 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1447#comment-8584 @Rob Read: I was in the UK last year but I forgot to shop on Sunday. I think the way you argue here offers a nice illustration of how people came to vote NO on the big referendum in such numbers. Your argument, although inspired by really caring for people who face problems finding a decent job or any job at all, is experienced as, -and actually is-, kind of a threat. "If you do not give more freedom to enterprises, big or small, employment will go down (or at least it will not rise if you don't organize society the way we tell you to)". Maybe you could convince me or others by supplying some numbers on the rise of employment thanks to the increased number of shopping hours in the UK; especially the ones on Sundays. The policy could well have negative employment effects too because part of the smaller shops will collapse under the extra competition. In the aforementioned forum I had kind of a discussion with the council-member responsible for the city-budget. At first he tried to avoid the subject but it turned out the city did not even make any quantitive guesses on the extra costs and benefits. I am exaggerating now but one could say that in this way an attempt is made to cast doubts not only on the credibility of every government policy but on society as well. Free-market-ideology above everything. And yes, even if you come up with credible numbers on the rise of employment thanks to the policies you endorse, I still have the right to consider other factors as well. In the case of my hometown that is air quality for example. On few places in North-West Europe the air is as bad (health-threatening for people with astma) as in the centre/west of the Netherlands. Extra opening hours attract extra traffic; by car mostly. Actually this could have had a positive influence on the big referendum too: a majority in the city council tries to evade the rules concerning the air quality. The European regulations support the case for people active on the environmental front. @Rob Read: I was in the UK last year but I forgot to shop on Sunday.
I think the way you argue here offers a nice illustration of how people came to vote NO on the big referendum in such numbers. Your argument, although inspired by really caring for people who face problems finding a decent job or any job at all, is experienced as, -and actually is-, kind of a threat. “If you do not give more freedom to enterprises, big or small, employment will go down (or at least it will not rise if you don’t organize society the way we tell you to)”.
Maybe you could convince me or others by supplying some numbers on the rise of employment thanks to the increased number of shopping hours in the UK; especially the ones on Sundays. The policy could well have negative employment effects too because part of the smaller shops will collapse under the extra competition.
In the aforementioned forum I had kind of a discussion with the council-member responsible for the city-budget. At first he tried to avoid the subject but it turned out the city did not even make any quantitive guesses on the extra costs and benefits.
I am exaggerating now but one could say that in this way an attempt is made to cast doubts not only on the credibility of every government policy but on society as well. Free-market-ideology above everything.

And yes, even if you come up with credible numbers on the rise of employment thanks to the policies you endorse, I still have the right to consider other factors as well.
In the case of my hometown that is air quality for example. On few places in North-West Europe the air is as bad (health-threatening for people with astma) as in the centre/west of the Netherlands. Extra opening hours attract extra traffic; by car mostly.
Actually this could have had a positive influence on the big referendum too: a majority in the city council tries to evade the rules concerning the air quality. The European regulations support the case for people active on the environmental front.

]]> By: ferrand http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/twenty-twenty-vision/#comment-8583 ferrand Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:36:29 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1447#comment-8583 Has anyone considered that as the Dutch are on the whole a nation of high financial probity, and the EU, in view of their accounts being qualified ten years in succession are not, that this may be a "subliminal" reason for the Dutch NEE ? Why should one support an organisation which aims to "lay down the law" to everyone else while being unable to control it's own internal affairs satisfactorily ? Has anyone considered that as the Dutch are on the whole a nation of high financial probity, and the EU, in view of their accounts being qualified ten years in succession are not, that this may be a “subliminal” reason for the Dutch NEE ?

Why should one support an organisation which aims to “lay down the law” to everyone else while being unable to control it’s own internal affairs satisfactorily ?

]]> By: Rob Read http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/twenty-twenty-vision/#comment-8582 Rob Read Thu, 02 Jun 2005 22:11:57 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1447#comment-8582 Frans, Never mind, I'm sure those people who could have been employed by shops on Sundays, don't realise what how much poorer they are becuase of the sunday shopping referendum. Sunday is the best day to shop, come to the UK and find out. Frans,

Never mind, I’m sure those people who could have been employed by shops on Sundays, don’t realise what how much poorer they are becuase of the sunday shopping referendum.

Sunday is the best day to shop, come to the UK and find out.

]]> By: anne http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/twenty-twenty-vision/#comment-8581 anne Thu, 02 Jun 2005 21:41:01 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1447#comment-8581 Well done, Frans :) Well done, Frans :)

]]> By: Frans G http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/twenty-twenty-vision/#comment-8580 Frans G Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:38:08 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1447#comment-8580 A little bit of extra information on my hometown because it is not typical. Utrecht is the only bigger city whery the majority voted yes on the European referendum. The parts of the town with higher turn-out had a more definitive yes. Utrecht is a young town. Lots of students. And now that you mentioned it ( ) the referendum on shops in the inner city opening on every Sunday (as opposed to once a month) got a two-third NO! I had a relatively strong presence on the city-forum that was set up to debate the issue; opposing the extra openings but opposing the referendum itself much stronger. Nice to be in the winning camp as well... A little bit of extra information on my hometown because it is not typical.
Utrecht is the only bigger city whery the majority voted yes on the European referendum. The parts of the town with higher turn-out had a more definitive yes.
Utrecht is a young town. Lots of students.

And now that you mentioned it ( ) the referendum on shops in the inner city opening on every Sunday (as opposed to once a month) got a two-third NO!
I had a relatively strong presence on the city-forum that was set up to debate the issue; opposing the extra openings but opposing the referendum itself much stronger. Nice to be in the winning camp as well…

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