<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Some stupid stuff about Ukraine</title>
	<atom:link href="http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/some-stupid-stuff-about-ukraine/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/some-stupid-stuff-about-ukraine/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 03:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: Daniel Antal</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/some-stupid-stuff-about-ukraine/#comment-21393</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Antal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 14:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3354#comment-21393</guid>
		<description>Peter, I think you are right that many people would claim that admitting Ukraine would make the accession of Turkey more difficult. There are very different interest at stake. I don't think that is the real issue here, but I think there will be people who will make an either/or case and a bad compromise may be the neither/nor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter, I think you are right that many people would claim that admitting Ukraine would make the accession of Turkey more difficult. There are very different interest at stake. I don&#8217;t think that is the real issue here, but I think there will be people who will make an either/or case and a bad compromise may be the neither/nor.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ron Hulscher</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/some-stupid-stuff-about-ukraine/#comment-21359</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Hulscher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 06:18:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3354#comment-21359</guid>
		<description>I noticed the use of the word Byzantium has been used several times in this article. Although the word Byzantium is commonly used, personally I don’t like the use of Byzantium because it is an artificial concept. It came out of the fantasy of  historians, long after the fall of Constantinople. Although the political and historical reasons for which historians have created this concept, have long ago loosed their valid, it remained for them a fixed idea. 
When I should ask an historian: “what empire cease to exist with the capture of Constantinople in 1453 by caliph Mehmed 2?”, he would probably answer me that it was the existence of Byzantium what was ended by this event. But than I would say to him that that was not possible, because in 1453 it still has to take many years before the fantasy of the historians would have created Byzantium. So, if Byzantium was not created in 1453, what empire did ended then? When we were able to ask the same question to a defender who survived the siege of Constantinople, he should have given us the right answer: it was the (eastern) roman empire. And I doubt if there is a historian to be found who is able to convince that defender, that the name of his native country was actually Byzantium.
Ron.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I noticed the use of the word Byzantium has been used several times in this article. Although the word Byzantium is commonly used, personally I don’t like the use of Byzantium because it is an artificial concept. It came out of the fantasy of  historians, long after the fall of Constantinople. Although the political and historical reasons for which historians have created this concept, have long ago loosed their valid, it remained for them a fixed idea.<br />
When I should ask an historian: “what empire cease to exist with the capture of Constantinople in 1453 by caliph Mehmed 2?”, he would probably answer me that it was the existence of Byzantium what was ended by this event. But than I would say to him that that was not possible, because in 1453 it still has to take many years before the fantasy of the historians would have created Byzantium. So, if Byzantium was not created in 1453, what empire did ended then? When we were able to ask the same question to a defender who survived the siege of Constantinople, he should have given us the right answer: it was the (eastern) roman empire. And I doubt if there is a historian to be found who is able to convince that defender, that the name of his native country was actually Byzantium.<br />
Ron.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/some-stupid-stuff-about-ukraine/#comment-21357</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 02:24:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3354#comment-21357</guid>
		<description>Would admitting Ukraine make it more difficult for the EU to keep excluding Turkey?  Perhaps that's the real issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would admitting Ukraine make it more difficult for the EU to keep excluding Turkey?  Perhaps that&#8217;s the real issue.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jussi Jalonen</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/some-stupid-stuff-about-ukraine/#comment-21356</link>
		<dc:creator>Jussi Jalonen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:22:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3354#comment-21356</guid>
		<description>I like Wagner's screed because it manages to be splendidly incoherent and inconsistent on so many levels at once.

Galicia was never part of Ukraine, and all the local luminaries were Jews, Poles or Germans, and Ukrainians were hardly ever a significant part of the local population, but even if they were, it doesn't matter, because the whole region was just a half-Asiatic non-European backwater, and the Ukrainians were not among the upper class, but even though there were hardly any Ukrainians in Galicia or at least they didn't identify themselves as Ukrainians and had no prominence whatsoever, they _still_ were a "political and cultural elite" and had enough clout to destroy the whole Habsburg Empire and because of this cardinal sin, they should be refused access to the European Union.

I mean, huh? I know a nice lady from the University of Ivan Franko. Perhaps I should forward the article to her, so she could have a good laugh.

Anyway. Wagner doesn't seem to know much of anything of the history of the region, but the part about how the Galician Ukrainians share the responsibility for the destruction of the Habsburg Empire is particularly hilarious. The traditional Galician loyalism and the story of the Ukrainian Sharp-Shooters in the Imperial and Royal Army seems to be unknown to him. Not to mention the story of those Ukrainians who were thrown to concentration camps in 1914-1915 by the Russian and Austrian military authorities, respectively.

Still, perhaps blocking the EU membership from all those countries that participated in the destruction of the Habsburg Empire really is a pretty good idea. Let's throw out all those Entente countries who sent troops to the Isonzo and Saloniki fronts. Especially France, since Clemenceau played an important part in the final decision to put Austria-Hungary completely out of its misery.

But who the hell named Austria-Hungary as the precursor to the European Union, and where's Wagner getting this from? I could just as well regard the League of Nations as the direct predecessor of the EU, and state that "we should not forget all those peoples who were instrumental in bringing down the League; not least the Germans and the Italians".

As expected, Wagner also manages to throw in the usual stuff of how the West Ukrainians were all goddamn Nazi collaborators. Never mind that this is a slur that one usually hears from "Homo Sovieticus"-types who don't really share the "occidental" views on the world.

(Ukrainians were Nazi collaborators? As opposed to Balkan Germans? Okay.)


Cheers,

J. J.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like Wagner&#8217;s screed because it manages to be splendidly incoherent and inconsistent on so many levels at once.</p>
<p>Galicia was never part of Ukraine, and all the local luminaries were Jews, Poles or Germans, and Ukrainians were hardly ever a significant part of the local population, but even if they were, it doesn&#8217;t matter, because the whole region was just a half-Asiatic non-European backwater, and the Ukrainians were not among the upper class, but even though there were hardly any Ukrainians in Galicia or at least they didn&#8217;t identify themselves as Ukrainians and had no prominence whatsoever, they _still_ were a &#8220;political and cultural elite&#8221; and had enough clout to destroy the whole Habsburg Empire and because of this cardinal sin, they should be refused access to the European Union.</p>
<p>I mean, huh? I know a nice lady from the University of Ivan Franko. Perhaps I should forward the article to her, so she could have a good laugh.</p>
<p>Anyway. Wagner doesn&#8217;t seem to know much of anything of the history of the region, but the part about how the Galician Ukrainians share the responsibility for the destruction of the Habsburg Empire is particularly hilarious. The traditional Galician loyalism and the story of the Ukrainian Sharp-Shooters in the Imperial and Royal Army seems to be unknown to him. Not to mention the story of those Ukrainians who were thrown to concentration camps in 1914-1915 by the Russian and Austrian military authorities, respectively.</p>
<p>Still, perhaps blocking the EU membership from all those countries that participated in the destruction of the Habsburg Empire really is a pretty good idea. Let&#8217;s throw out all those Entente countries who sent troops to the Isonzo and Saloniki fronts. Especially France, since Clemenceau played an important part in the final decision to put Austria-Hungary completely out of its misery.</p>
<p>But who the hell named Austria-Hungary as the precursor to the European Union, and where&#8217;s Wagner getting this from? I could just as well regard the League of Nations as the direct predecessor of the EU, and state that &#8220;we should not forget all those peoples who were instrumental in bringing down the League; not least the Germans and the Italians&#8221;.</p>
<p>As expected, Wagner also manages to throw in the usual stuff of how the West Ukrainians were all goddamn Nazi collaborators. Never mind that this is a slur that one usually hears from &#8220;Homo Sovieticus&#8221;-types who don&#8217;t really share the &#8220;occidental&#8221; views on the world.</p>
<p>(Ukrainians were Nazi collaborators? As opposed to Balkan Germans? Okay.)</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>J. J.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alex (not the other one)</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/some-stupid-stuff-about-ukraine/#comment-21353</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex (not the other one)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 11:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3354#comment-21353</guid>
		<description>Further, what the hell is a Byzantine habitus anyway? Strange, it looks a lot like this bag of unexamined assumptions I happened to have lying around.

Also, there was a very good reason why the 1950s EU was "dedicated to the Occidental idea"; the other bit was occupied by the Russians.

Regarding German Russophilia, this goes right back to Bahr/Gromyko; the theory is something like this. There is no conflict between &lt;em&gt;Ostpolitik&lt;/em&gt; and NATO/EU membership - this membership (&lt;em&gt;Westintegration&lt;/em&gt;) is the guarantee that permits us to deal with the East Germans and Russians. This is however dependent on inter-superpower calm (no &lt;em&gt;Grosswetterlage&lt;/em&gt; as Honecker put it), and therefore it is a primary German interest to make nice with the Russians.

Obviously this got revised with reunification; in a sense, East Germany was swapped for the ex-Warsaw Pact states. Their integration in NATO and the EU was dependent on Russian acquiescence; therefore Germany must be nice to the Russians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further, what the hell is a Byzantine habitus anyway? Strange, it looks a lot like this bag of unexamined assumptions I happened to have lying around.</p>
<p>Also, there was a very good reason why the 1950s EU was &#8220;dedicated to the Occidental idea&#8221;; the other bit was occupied by the Russians.</p>
<p>Regarding German Russophilia, this goes right back to Bahr/Gromyko; the theory is something like this. There is no conflict between <em>Ostpolitik</em> and NATO/EU membership - this membership (<em>Westintegration</em>) is the guarantee that permits us to deal with the East Germans and Russians. This is however dependent on inter-superpower calm (no <em>Grosswetterlage</em> as Honecker put it), and therefore it is a primary German interest to make nice with the Russians.</p>
<p>Obviously this got revised with reunification; in a sense, East Germany was swapped for the ex-Warsaw Pact states. Their integration in NATO and the EU was dependent on Russian acquiescence; therefore Germany must be nice to the Russians.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/some-stupid-stuff-about-ukraine/#comment-21345</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3354#comment-21345</guid>
		<description>Re Germans being Russophiles: Kissinger predicted that in his book "Does America need a foreign policy?" (which I mentally subtitle "Remedial foreign policy for backward presidents"). His argument was something like, that under Bismarck Germany successfully kept diplomatic options open with both Russia and the Western powers, and since then whenever Germany has lost its 'Russian option' things have gone badly for them, so many Germans instinctively fear throwing themselves entirely in with the EU. 

I don't know enough history to evaluate his thesis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re Germans being Russophiles: Kissinger predicted that in his book &#8220;Does America need a foreign policy?&#8221; (which I mentally subtitle &#8220;Remedial foreign policy for backward presidents&#8221;). His argument was something like, that under Bismarck Germany successfully kept diplomatic options open with both Russia and the Western powers, and since then whenever Germany has lost its &#8216;Russian option&#8217; things have gone badly for them, so many Germans instinctively fear throwing themselves entirely in with the EU. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know enough history to evaluate his thesis.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stefan</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/some-stupid-stuff-about-ukraine/#comment-21344</link>
		<dc:creator>Stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:15:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3354#comment-21344</guid>
		<description>Last time I looked Norway wasn't part of the EU, but of the Schengen zone...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last time I looked Norway wasn&#8217;t part of the EU, but of the Schengen zone&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel Antal</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/some-stupid-stuff-about-ukraine/#comment-21343</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Antal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:03:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3354#comment-21343</guid>
		<description>I just keep on asking myself: if you are a minor global player, and a great country comes to you, offers its economic and military alliance, do you say, you cannot be my ally, because you have not been my ally? Is this a way of gaining strength?

If Ukraine was responding to Moscow, why would it seek an alliance with its strategic rival? And if it was true, would not it show the greatness of the EU and NATO if Ukraine wanted to switch sides?

I think the EU has done a lot of harm to itself with handling Turkey's accession they way it had. There could have been two better options than the many decade long inconclusive muddling: either a yes, or a no with an offer of real alliance on a number of issues. We have just kept a big and strong country frustrated for many-many years. This is something the EU should not do with Ukraine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just keep on asking myself: if you are a minor global player, and a great country comes to you, offers its economic and military alliance, do you say, you cannot be my ally, because you have not been my ally? Is this a way of gaining strength?</p>
<p>If Ukraine was responding to Moscow, why would it seek an alliance with its strategic rival? And if it was true, would not it show the greatness of the EU and NATO if Ukraine wanted to switch sides?</p>
<p>I think the EU has done a lot of harm to itself with handling Turkey&#8217;s accession they way it had. There could have been two better options than the many decade long inconclusive muddling: either a yes, or a no with an offer of real alliance on a number of issues. We have just kept a big and strong country frustrated for many-many years. This is something the EU should not do with Ukraine.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Muir refutes Wagner&#8217;s nonsense &#171; The 8th Circle</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/some-stupid-stuff-about-ukraine/#comment-21341</link>
		<dc:creator>Muir refutes Wagner&#8217;s nonsense &#171; The 8th Circle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:27:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3354#comment-21341</guid>
		<description>[...] over at afoe, brilliantly critiques Wagner&#8217;s diatribe. Judge for [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] over at afoe, brilliantly critiques Wagner&#8217;s diatribe. Judge for [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Global Voices Online &#187; Ukraine: &#8220;No Place in the EU&#8221;?</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/some-stupid-stuff-about-ukraine/#comment-21338</link>
		<dc:creator>Global Voices Online &#187; Ukraine: &#8220;No Place in the EU&#8221;?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3354#comment-21338</guid>
		<description>[...] Fistful of Euros critiques a &#8220;wince-inducingly stupid article&#8221; on Ukraine written by &#8220;Richard Wagner, a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Fistful of Euros critiques a &#8220;wince-inducingly stupid article&#8221; on Ukraine written by &#8220;Richard Wagner, a [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
