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	<title>Comments on: Oh We Are The Champions</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/oh-we-are-the-champions/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Edward</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/oh-we-are-the-champions/#comment-13660</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Mar 2006 13:41:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2380#comment-13660</guid>
		<description>"But it's a bad outcome if we end up with a Europe where each national market is dominated by a domestic champion, and national regulation is subordinated to an industrial policy*"

Yep, and I think this thread now moves over to Tobias' latest post :).
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But it&#8217;s a bad outcome if we end up with a Europe where each national market is dominated by a domestic champion, and national regulation is subordinated to an industrial policy*&#8221;</p>
<p>Yep, and I think this thread now moves over to Tobias&#8217; latest post :).</p>
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		<title>By: bert</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/oh-we-are-the-champions/#comment-13659</link>
		<dc:creator>bert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Mar 2006 05:32:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2380#comment-13659</guid>
		<description>Follow-up thought:
van Miert's view is that these deals show national players consolidating in response to the wider context of a liberalised European market. There's a lot to be said for that view, and it might cheer those worrying that the deals are in fact a defensive obstruction of that liberalisation.

But it's a bad outcome if we end up with a Europe where each national market is dominated by a domestic champion, and national regulation is subordinated to an industrial policy* that serves to entrench the champions' dominant position. Anyone who read the recent obituaries of airline adventurer Freddie Laker will know exactly how much fun it was to be a customer in a sector dominated by complacent flag-carriers.

For this reason we must put quite a large amount of trust in European regulation, and not kid ourselves that there won't be a very serious fight on this issue.
_____

* 'industrial policy' never got a proper definition earlier in the thread. As far as one can tell from the examples given, the following seems fair: using state powers to intervene in a broad range of economic decisions, in the national interest and/or in the interests of a particular government or group.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Follow-up thought:<br />
van Miert&#8217;s view is that these deals show national players consolidating in response to the wider context of a liberalised European market. There&#8217;s a lot to be said for that view, and it might cheer those worrying that the deals are in fact a defensive obstruction of that liberalisation.</p>
<p>But it&#8217;s a bad outcome if we end up with a Europe where each national market is dominated by a domestic champion, and national regulation is subordinated to an industrial policy* that serves to entrench the champions&#8217; dominant position. Anyone who read the recent obituaries of airline adventurer Freddie Laker will know exactly how much fun it was to be a customer in a sector dominated by complacent flag-carriers.</p>
<p>For this reason we must put quite a large amount of trust in European regulation, and not kid ourselves that there won&#8217;t be a very serious fight on this issue.<br />
_____</p>
<p>* &#8216;industrial policy&#8217; never got a proper definition earlier in the thread. As far as one can tell from the examples given, the following seems fair: using state powers to intervene in a broad range of economic decisions, in the national interest and/or in the interests of a particular government or group.</p>
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		<title>By: bert</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/oh-we-are-the-champions/#comment-13658</link>
		<dc:creator>bert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Mar 2006 01:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2380#comment-13658</guid>
		<description>The van Miert quote sounds like an example of the Aristotelian mean you were talking about.
On the one hand, it's happening; on the other hand, the fact that it's happening is a sign that it's on its way out.

I'm less sanguine. In fact I'm far more worried now than I was when France unveiled its list of protected sectors. That was entirely to be expected: the first rule of French politics is that across the entire spectrum, everyone's a Gaullist. But, like bird flu, this strain of economic nationalism seems to be contagious. So we get things like this, which may be election-fuelled, but still smells bad:
According to Welfare Minister, Roberto Maroni, Italy should apply legitimate defence to the economic field: "We must do what France did in the energy sector and defend Italy's strategic materials ... Europe is in a deep coma. Political Europe no longer exists."
An eye for an eye and the world goes blind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The van Miert quote sounds like an example of the Aristotelian mean you were talking about.<br />
On the one hand, it&#8217;s happening; on the other hand, the fact that it&#8217;s happening is a sign that it&#8217;s on its way out.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m less sanguine. In fact I&#8217;m far more worried now than I was when France unveiled its list of protected sectors. That was entirely to be expected: the first rule of French politics is that across the entire spectrum, everyone&#8217;s a Gaullist. But, like bird flu, this strain of economic nationalism seems to be contagious. So we get things like this, which may be election-fuelled, but still smells bad:<br />
According to Welfare Minister, Roberto Maroni, Italy should apply legitimate defence to the economic field: &#8220;We must do what France did in the energy sector and defend Italy&#8217;s strategic materials &#8230; Europe is in a deep coma. Political Europe no longer exists.&#8221;<br />
An eye for an eye and the world goes blind.</p>
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		<title>By: Charly</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/oh-we-are-the-champions/#comment-13657</link>
		<dc:creator>Charly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Mar 2006 01:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2380#comment-13657</guid>
		<description>I don't see a problem obtaining oil for Europe for the next 20 years. After that is to far in the future to say anything usefull.

Producing base electricity with gas is foolish. At the moment producing base load with wind or even nuclear is cheaper than gas so i don't see gas taking over base load production. Also Kyoto is an intention without any real penalties and we could buy all the emission rights from a certain faultering economy who at the moment hasn't yet signed kyoto but who will so it can sell all those emision rights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see a problem obtaining oil for Europe for the next 20 years. After that is to far in the future to say anything usefull.</p>
<p>Producing base electricity with gas is foolish. At the moment producing base load with wind or even nuclear is cheaper than gas so i don&#8217;t see gas taking over base load production. Also Kyoto is an intention without any real penalties and we could buy all the emission rights from a certain faultering economy who at the moment hasn&#8217;t yet signed kyoto but who will so it can sell all those emision rights.</p>
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		<title>By: Edward</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/oh-we-are-the-champions/#comment-13656</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Mar 2006 20:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2380#comment-13656</guid>
		<description>This, which I found in the FT, is a fairly balanced comment I think:

Karel van Miert, who served as a European commissioner for transport and competition between 1989 and 1999, told the Financial Times on Tuesday : “The vehemence we have seen recently in the Mittal case, in Spain and in Poland is indeed something new and rather worrying.”

He added: “Some countries have always been rather protectionist in the sense that they did not like at all to see their companies being taken over by others from abroad. What has not been around all the time is that you are now getting it [protectionism] all over the place and even in the new member states such as Poland.

“What we are seeing is on the one hand very worrying, because it shows there is a reluctance to accept the logic of the single market. But it also shows that liberalisation is making some headway. Especially in the energy sector, we are seeing the beginning of a consolidation game – and this does trigger great resistance.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This, which I found in the FT, is a fairly balanced comment I think:</p>
<p>Karel van Miert, who served as a European commissioner for transport and competition between 1989 and 1999, told the Financial Times on Tuesday : “The vehemence we have seen recently in the Mittal case, in Spain and in Poland is indeed something new and rather worrying.”</p>
<p>He added: “Some countries have always been rather protectionist in the sense that they did not like at all to see their companies being taken over by others from abroad. What has not been around all the time is that you are now getting it [protectionism] all over the place and even in the new member states such as Poland.</p>
<p>“What we are seeing is on the one hand very worrying, because it shows there is a reluctance to accept the logic of the single market. But it also shows that liberalisation is making some headway. Especially in the energy sector, we are seeing the beginning of a consolidation game – and this does trigger great resistance.”</p>
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		<title>By: Edward</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/oh-we-are-the-champions/#comment-13655</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Mar 2006 15:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2380#comment-13655</guid>
		<description>"if you're a builder in Houston, say, and you want to build houses in San Francisco, you have to obey San Francisco's building code."

Of course, and I absolutely agree that housing rules should be written locally under the kind of subsidiartity structure that the EU so badly needs. Brussles is a need of both a drastic pruning and a substantial strengthening. It should have the clout to do what it needs to do, simply that.

If you have the euro it needs to be able to enforce a universal capital and labour market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;if you&#8217;re a builder in Houston, say, and you want to build houses in San Francisco, you have to obey San Francisco&#8217;s building code.&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course, and I absolutely agree that housing rules should be written locally under the kind of subsidiartity structure that the EU so badly needs. Brussles is a need of both a drastic pruning and a substantial strengthening. It should have the clout to do what it needs to do, simply that.</p>
<p>If you have the euro it needs to be able to enforce a universal capital and labour market.</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/oh-we-are-the-champions/#comment-13654</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Mar 2006 13:25:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2380#comment-13654</guid>
		<description>Oil is really more pan-European and in short is "make sure you can afford to pay more than America". Getting it is not a problem.

For now. It will not remain so.

Gas, the problem child. Be nice to Russia and Iran or have your own supply

If we don't have an energy policy and maintain stringent emission targets, which we are bound to, and even add taxation of carbon dioxide, our electricity will soon be made mostly from natural gas, like in Italy and partially the UK.
Adding competition, as Comissioner Piebalgs plans to, won't help. It might even hurt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oil is really more pan-European and in short is &#8220;make sure you can afford to pay more than America&#8221;. Getting it is not a problem.</p>
<p>For now. It will not remain so.</p>
<p>Gas, the problem child. Be nice to Russia and Iran or have your own supply</p>
<p>If we don&#8217;t have an energy policy and maintain stringent emission targets, which we are bound to, and even add taxation of carbon dioxide, our electricity will soon be made mostly from natural gas, like in Italy and partially the UK.<br />
Adding competition, as Comissioner Piebalgs plans to, won&#8217;t help. It might even hurt.</p>
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		<title>By: Charly</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/oh-we-are-the-champions/#comment-13653</link>
		<dc:creator>Charly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Mar 2006 04:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2380#comment-13653</guid>
		<description>Energy policy should be divided in 3 different areas. Oil, gas and electricity are three distinct markets.

Oil is really more pan-European and in short is "make sure you can afford to pay more than America". Getting it is not a problem.
Electricities problem is its very peak dependency which is mostly solved at the moment by gas, hydro and locally by exporting electricity during the base hours(France's methode and the reason why they would be in trouble without Russia gas exports).
Gas, the problem child. Be nice to Russia and Iran or have your own supply</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Energy policy should be divided in 3 different areas. Oil, gas and electricity are three distinct markets.</p>
<p>Oil is really more pan-European and in short is &#8220;make sure you can afford to pay more than America&#8221;. Getting it is not a problem.<br />
Electricities problem is its very peak dependency which is mostly solved at the moment by gas, hydro and locally by exporting electricity during the base hours(France&#8217;s methode and the reason why they would be in trouble without Russia gas exports).<br />
Gas, the problem child. Be nice to Russia and Iran or have your own supply</p>
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		<title>By: bert</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/oh-we-are-the-champions/#comment-13652</link>
		<dc:creator>bert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Mar 2006 02:26:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2380#comment-13652</guid>
		<description>Energy Commissioner Andris Piebalgs, recently: 
An approach based solely on 25 individual energy policies is not sufficient to deliver the common objectives of the EU (secure, sustainable and competitive energy) ... I will propose to the Commission, by the end of March, the launching of a package of infringement procedures against those Member States not having ensured full compliance with the provisions of these gas and electricity directives.

Lots of good links here (some of them pdf).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Energy Commissioner Andris Piebalgs, recently:<br />
An approach based solely on 25 individual energy policies is not sufficient to deliver the common objectives of the EU (secure, sustainable and competitive energy) &#8230; I will propose to the Commission, by the end of March, the launching of a package of infringement procedures against those Member States not having ensured full compliance with the provisions of these gas and electricity directives.</p>
<p>Lots of good links here (some of them pdf).</p>
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		<title>By: Charly</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/oh-we-are-the-champions/#comment-13651</link>
		<dc:creator>Charly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Mar 2006 00:55:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2380#comment-13651</guid>
		<description>European building codes are AFAIK also local. But the rules about payment of your workers is from the home nation. I don't know how that is in the US but i assume that it is the same</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>European building codes are AFAIK also local. But the rules about payment of your workers is from the home nation. I don&#8217;t know how that is in the US but i assume that it is the same</p>
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