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	<title>Comments on: Not as exciting as the World Cup</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/not-as-exciting-as-the-world-cup/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 17:00:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Oliver</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/not-as-exciting-as-the-world-cup/#comment-14893</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:38:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2578#comment-14893</guid>
		<description>As for balance lots of political system have a chamber that do not represent population fairly (senate in France) but it usually has less power than the other more "representative" chamber.

You could argue that the US Senate is the more powerful chamber. But I don't care about democracy here. You could hardly make the selection of the commission any less democratic, so anything is an improvement.

But you cannot simply alter the balance of power that much. Maybe it would be enough to simply remove the commission from the process of legislation.
My point is that you cannot import only a part of Westminster to Brussels. We can live with the parliament as it is now, one part of many in legislation. Give all power to it, and it cannot stay as it is.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for balance lots of political system have a chamber that do not represent population fairly (senate in France) but it usually has less power than the other more &#8220;representative&#8221; chamber.</p>
<p>You could argue that the US Senate is the more powerful chamber. But I don&#8217;t care about democracy here. You could hardly make the selection of the commission any less democratic, so anything is an improvement.</p>
<p>But you cannot simply alter the balance of power that much. Maybe it would be enough to simply remove the commission from the process of legislation.<br />
My point is that you cannot import only a part of Westminster to Brussels. We can live with the parliament as it is now, one part of many in legislation. Give all power to it, and it cannot stay as it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Laurent GUERBY</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/not-as-exciting-as-the-world-cup/#comment-14892</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurent GUERBY</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jun 2006 03:57:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2578#comment-14892</guid>
		<description>Oliver, San Marino is not a formal member, but it's within borders obviously so let's count it in. According to wikipedia parliament elect two head of executive ("from opposite parties") every 6 month, so if I understand correctly technically the parliamant can change the executive every 6 monthes, change can be considered as "overthown" if needed (plus citizens can file some form of "complaints"). Am I misunderstanding 

BTW, do you have an encyclopedic knowledge of political systems accross the world :) or do you have a super secret web site source? (wikipedia is not very precise in describing political systems most of the time).

As for balance lots of political system have a chamber that do not represent population fairly (senate in France) but it usually has less power than the other more "representative" chamber. In lots of system the executive is an emanation of the parliament, so more or less "slave". Changing the balance of European institutions will obviously require matched changes to keep the system reasonably democratic (as you point out).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oliver, San Marino is not a formal member, but it&#8217;s within borders obviously so let&#8217;s count it in. According to wikipedia parliament elect two head of executive (&#8221;from opposite parties&#8221;) every 6 month, so if I understand correctly technically the parliamant can change the executive every 6 monthes, change can be considered as &#8220;overthown&#8221; if needed (plus citizens can file some form of &#8220;complaints&#8221;). Am I misunderstanding </p>
<p>BTW, do you have an encyclopedic knowledge of political systems accross the world <img src='http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> or do you have a super secret web site source? (wikipedia is not very precise in describing political systems most of the time).</p>
<p>As for balance lots of political system have a chamber that do not represent population fairly (senate in France) but it usually has less power than the other more &#8220;representative&#8221; chamber. In lots of system the executive is an emanation of the parliament, so more or less &#8220;slave&#8221;. Changing the balance of European institutions will obviously require matched changes to keep the system reasonably democratic (as you point out).</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/not-as-exciting-as-the-world-cup/#comment-14891</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jun 2006 23:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2578#comment-14891</guid>
		<description>Do you know of any counterexample within the EU?

Is San Marino EU to you?

As for balance between the three powers, this is the essence of democracy

But you are not asking for balance. You are asking for the commission to be a slave of the parliament. If you do that for the sake of democracy, you will have to explain why a Maltese voter is worth 10.3 German voters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you know of any counterexample within the EU?</p>
<p>Is San Marino EU to you?</p>
<p>As for balance between the three powers, this is the essence of democracy</p>
<p>But you are not asking for balance. You are asking for the commission to be a slave of the parliament. If you do that for the sake of democracy, you will have to explain why a Maltese voter is worth 10.3 German voters.</p>
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		<title>By: Laurent GUERBY</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/not-as-exciting-as-the-world-cup/#comment-14890</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurent GUERBY</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:36:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2578#comment-14890</guid>
		<description>Oliver, thanks for the counter examples! Switzerland is a special case here anyway since it has direct democracy features for law origination. USA has powerful parliaments that do originate laws in practice (even if the near directly electred president has veto). I don't know Brazil and Mexico. Do you know of any counterexample within the EU?

As for balance between the three powers, this is the essence of democracy (for me at least) so "shifting" is needed (mat be I don't understand your remark though).

snowflake5, I describe only two commission powers: monopoly over law origination and veto over legislative outcome. I don't know how you cut that in half or transform these powers to just "suggestions".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oliver, thanks for the counter examples! Switzerland is a special case here anyway since it has direct democracy features for law origination. USA has powerful parliaments that do originate laws in practice (even if the near directly electred president has veto). I don&#8217;t know Brazil and Mexico. Do you know of any counterexample within the EU?</p>
<p>As for balance between the three powers, this is the essence of democracy (for me at least) so &#8220;shifting&#8221; is needed (mat be I don&#8217;t understand your remark though).</p>
<p>snowflake5, I describe only two commission powers: monopoly over law origination and veto over legislative outcome. I don&#8217;t know how you cut that in half or transform these powers to just &#8220;suggestions&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/not-as-exciting-as-the-world-cup/#comment-14889</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jun 2006 20:49:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2578#comment-14889</guid>
		<description>All the members of the council are ELECTED by the voters in their countries

Except for the president of France, no one of them is elected by the voters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All the members of the council are ELECTED by the voters in their countries</p>
<p>Except for the president of France, no one of them is elected by the voters.</p>
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		<title>By: snowflake5</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/not-as-exciting-as-the-world-cup/#comment-14888</link>
		<dc:creator>snowflake5</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jun 2006 18:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2578#comment-14888</guid>
		<description>Laurent - if the commission had even half the power you ascribe to it, the CAP reform they proposed would not have been watered down and the services directive proposal would not be sitting there gathering dust with no prospect in the near future of coming into force.

You write:  "As for power of origination, if example if a voted directive turns out to favour big multinational in practice and destroys competition, innovation, SME, ... Who has the political power to fix it or ... not to fix it? (see the intellectual property mess)."

The Council has the political power to "fix it" as you put it.  The commission can only make suggestions - it's the Council that DECIDES. And both the Council and Parliament can amend the proposals. All the members of the council are ELECTED by the voters in their countries. If the commission proposes something that the Council doesn't like, it simply gets vetoed.  Note that most directives need a unanimous decision in the council.

So in order for the EU to be "anti-democratic" as you put it, ALL 25 elected governments who sit on the Council must be anti-democratic!  Which is absurd by definition, because they are all elected.

If you don't want the EU to do something, make it an issue in your National elections - that way, the government you elect is bound by electoral mandate to behave in a certain way in the Council.  The trouble is that EU issues don't get discussed in national elections at all, even though you are not only electing a government to deal with domestic issues, but a key player in the Council. It's not the EU's fault that voters in national elections don't understand their responsibility. It's the fault of politicians, and to a certain extent of us the voters, for not understanding properly how the EU works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laurent - if the commission had even half the power you ascribe to it, the CAP reform they proposed would not have been watered down and the services directive proposal would not be sitting there gathering dust with no prospect in the near future of coming into force.</p>
<p>You write:  &#8220;As for power of origination, if example if a voted directive turns out to favour big multinational in practice and destroys competition, innovation, SME, &#8230; Who has the political power to fix it or &#8230; not to fix it? (see the intellectual property mess).&#8221;</p>
<p>The Council has the political power to &#8220;fix it&#8221; as you put it.  The commission can only make suggestions - it&#8217;s the Council that DECIDES. And both the Council and Parliament can amend the proposals. All the members of the council are ELECTED by the voters in their countries. If the commission proposes something that the Council doesn&#8217;t like, it simply gets vetoed.  Note that most directives need a unanimous decision in the council.</p>
<p>So in order for the EU to be &#8220;anti-democratic&#8221; as you put it, ALL 25 elected governments who sit on the Council must be anti-democratic!  Which is absurd by definition, because they are all elected.</p>
<p>If you don&#8217;t want the EU to do something, make it an issue in your National elections - that way, the government you elect is bound by electoral mandate to behave in a certain way in the Council.  The trouble is that EU issues don&#8217;t get discussed in national elections at all, even though you are not only electing a government to deal with domestic issues, but a key player in the Council. It&#8217;s not the EU&#8217;s fault that voters in national elections don&#8217;t understand their responsibility. It&#8217;s the fault of politicians, and to a certain extent of us the voters, for not understanding properly how the EU works.</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/not-as-exciting-as-the-world-cup/#comment-14887</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2578#comment-14887</guid>
		<description>parliament with a simple majority can overthrow the government (in every democracy, excluding Europe of course)

That is news to the citizens of Switzerland, the USA, Brazil and Mexico.

the mere existance of the possibility changes A LOT the balance of powers between government and parliament

Exactly. And therefore it is not the problem. When we complain about lacking democracy, we should introduce democracy, not shift power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>parliament with a simple majority can overthrow the government (in every democracy, excluding Europe of course)</p>
<p>That is news to the citizens of Switzerland, the USA, Brazil and Mexico.</p>
<p>the mere existance of the possibility changes A LOT the balance of powers between government and parliament</p>
<p>Exactly. And therefore it is not the problem. When we complain about lacking democracy, we should introduce democracy, not shift power.</p>
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		<title>By: Laurent GUERBY</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/not-as-exciting-as-the-world-cup/#comment-14886</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurent GUERBY</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jun 2006 05:18:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2578#comment-14886</guid>
		<description>snowflake5, I'm not blaming the commission for the constitution. 

As for power of origination, if example if a voted directive turns out to favour big multinational in practice and destroys competition, innovation, SME, ... Who has the political power to fix it or ... not to fix it? (see the intellectual property mess).

Oliver, I don't think snowflake5 is able to make a difference between a dictatorship and a democracy :).

The "yes" men answer to your remark is just that in practice the parliament with a simple majority can overthrow the government (in every democracy, excluding Europe of course) but that it very rarely happens in practice so it's useless.

I'll answer it: of course it doesn't happen often in practice, but the mere existance of the possibility changes A LOT the balance of powers between government and parliament.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>snowflake5, I&#8217;m not blaming the commission for the constitution. </p>
<p>As for power of origination, if example if a voted directive turns out to favour big multinational in practice and destroys competition, innovation, SME, &#8230; Who has the political power to fix it or &#8230; not to fix it? (see the intellectual property mess).</p>
<p>Oliver, I don&#8217;t think snowflake5 is able to make a difference between a dictatorship and a democracy :).</p>
<p>The &#8220;yes&#8221; men answer to your remark is just that in practice the parliament with a simple majority can overthrow the government (in every democracy, excluding Europe of course) but that it very rarely happens in practice so it&#8217;s useless.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll answer it: of course it doesn&#8217;t happen often in practice, but the mere existance of the possibility changes A LOT the balance of powers between government and parliament.</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/not-as-exciting-as-the-world-cup/#comment-14885</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jun 2006 19:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2578#comment-14885</guid>
		<description>It's a similar situation to when the UK governemnt sets up a Royal Commission to investigate options on pensions or tax or whatever.

This is a political truth at best. The UK parliament is perfectly able to legislate without input from any commission.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a similar situation to when the UK governemnt sets up a Royal Commission to investigate options on pensions or tax or whatever.</p>
<p>This is a political truth at best. The UK parliament is perfectly able to legislate without input from any commission.</p>
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		<title>By: snowflake5</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/not-as-exciting-as-the-world-cup/#comment-14884</link>
		<dc:creator>snowflake5</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jun 2006 17:54:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2578#comment-14884</guid>
		<description>Laurent, it's true they put forward proposals, but they can't make any decisions. It's a similar situation to when the UK governemnt sets up a Royal Commission to investigate options on pensions or tax or whatever. Whoever conducts the inquiry, interviews loads of people, takes testimony from experts, produces a report with any number of scenarios and recommendations and the government then decides what to do (sometimes rejecting them all). The EU commission is like that.  Frequently, what they "propose" is suggested to them by the Council of Ministers in the first place. Jacques Delors might have been an exception in that he proposed many things on his own account - but that was a long time ago - it's been nearly two decades since the commission behaved with any confidence or wielded any influence. 

As for the Constitution - there was a constitution convention where governemnts in all the member states sent delegates (elected members of the governments) to thrash out an agreement. It's completely unfair to blame the commission for it - for instance it wasn't the commisison's idea to make the constitutional treaty so huge and consolidate all the previous treaties into one. That idea came from the French delegation.

The problem is that it's easy to blame the commission, it's a dodge so that the elected people don't have to take responsibility for their own decisions. And you are colluding by going along with that. Power in Europe lies with the Member States in the Council - it always has. It's a nonsense to pretend otherwise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laurent, it&#8217;s true they put forward proposals, but they can&#8217;t make any decisions. It&#8217;s a similar situation to when the UK governemnt sets up a Royal Commission to investigate options on pensions or tax or whatever. Whoever conducts the inquiry, interviews loads of people, takes testimony from experts, produces a report with any number of scenarios and recommendations and the government then decides what to do (sometimes rejecting them all). The EU commission is like that.  Frequently, what they &#8220;propose&#8221; is suggested to them by the Council of Ministers in the first place. Jacques Delors might have been an exception in that he proposed many things on his own account - but that was a long time ago - it&#8217;s been nearly two decades since the commission behaved with any confidence or wielded any influence. </p>
<p>As for the Constitution - there was a constitution convention where governemnts in all the member states sent delegates (elected members of the governments) to thrash out an agreement. It&#8217;s completely unfair to blame the commission for it - for instance it wasn&#8217;t the commisison&#8217;s idea to make the constitutional treaty so huge and consolidate all the previous treaties into one. That idea came from the French delegation.</p>
<p>The problem is that it&#8217;s easy to blame the commission, it&#8217;s a dodge so that the elected people don&#8217;t have to take responsibility for their own decisions. And you are colluding by going along with that. Power in Europe lies with the Member States in the Council - it always has. It&#8217;s a nonsense to pretend otherwise.</p>
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