Comments on: Hard to hide from trouble http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/hard-to-hide-from-trouble/ European Opinion Sat, 22 Nov 2008 15:20:12 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: tom harlen http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/hard-to-hide-from-trouble/#comment-21052 tom harlen Tue, 01 Jul 2008 19:29:25 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3259#comment-21052 Here is an article talking to Busani Ncube of the Bulawayo project calling for military action. http://www.africanloft.com/zimbabwe-time-international-military-intervention/ So killing ZANU-PF members is not worth it to stop them from killing innocent people? By this logic, despots around the world should never be confronted because killing them is costing lives. If you negotiate with them long enough, the killing will stop because the despot will die of old age. I am having an extremely hard time understanding the liberal mindset. Here is an article talking to Busani Ncube of the Bulawayo project calling for military action.

http://www.africanloft.com/zimbabwe-time-international-military-intervention/

So killing ZANU-PF members is not worth it to stop them from killing innocent people? By this logic, despots around the world should never be confronted because killing them is costing lives. If you negotiate with them long enough, the killing will stop because the despot will die of old age. I am having an extremely hard time understanding the liberal mindset.

]]> By: Chris Williams http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/hard-to-hide-from-trouble/#comment-21048 Chris Williams Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:17:59 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3259#comment-21048 I don't hold a liberal view that there should never be war. This might be because I'm not a liberal. I can, however, count. This year in Zimbabwe hundreds of people have been killed by ZANU-PF. I can't get any easy figures for current rates of excess deaths from famine - can you help me? But nobody's coming out with them, either, which would imply that the threatened (and all-too-likely) famine has yet to arrive. Any conceivable war in Zimbabwe would kill hundreds: it's likely to lead to a crisis of subsistence which would kill tens of thousands. Thus I can't accept your logic, which is to argue that people are dying and thus war should be welcome. War kills people too. You need to shift your argument to different grounds (perhaps, 'freedom is worth some deaths') before I'm going to take it seriously. And if a majority of Zimbabweans were in favour of an actual war, we'd probably see some signs of it: I have not come across any evidence that (for example) MDC groups, or even Ndebele nationalist groups, are themselves attempting to engage in armed struggle against ZANU-PF. If you've got any I'd be happy to see it. Any response to that point which argues that they've not started shooting because they are totally cowed by the ZANU-PF apparatus brings into focus the fact that dismantling that apparatus is going to cost lots of lives. Do you have any suggestions as to who's going to be doing the fighting and dying to get rid of them? I don’t hold a liberal view that there should never be war. This might be because I’m not a liberal. I can, however, count. This year in Zimbabwe hundreds of people have been killed by ZANU-PF. I can’t get any easy figures for current rates of excess deaths from famine - can you help me? But nobody’s coming out with them, either, which would imply that the threatened (and all-too-likely) famine has yet to arrive.

Any conceivable war in Zimbabwe would kill hundreds: it’s likely to lead to a crisis of subsistence which would kill tens of thousands. Thus I can’t accept your logic, which is to argue that people are dying and thus war should be welcome. War kills people too. You need to shift your argument to different grounds (perhaps, ‘freedom is worth some deaths’) before I’m going to take it seriously.

And if a majority of Zimbabweans were in favour of an actual war, we’d probably see some signs of it: I have not come across any evidence that (for example) MDC groups, or even Ndebele nationalist groups, are themselves attempting to engage in armed struggle against ZANU-PF. If you’ve got any I’d be happy to see it. Any response to that point which argues that they’ve not started shooting because they are totally cowed by the ZANU-PF apparatus brings into focus the fact that dismantling that apparatus is going to cost lots of lives. Do you have any suggestions as to who’s going to be doing the fighting and dying to get rid of them?

]]> By: tom harlen http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/hard-to-hide-from-trouble/#comment-21040 tom harlen Tue, 01 Jul 2008 11:29:07 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3259#comment-21040 Chris, If you were to ask a typical Zimbabwean who is either under threat of death from Mugabe's thugs or is starving to death, my bet is that they would vote for military intervention to remove Mugabe. Your liberal view that there should never be war is naive, and people in Zimbabwe are dying because of that viewpoint. Tom Chris,

If you were to ask a typical Zimbabwean who is either under threat of death from Mugabe’s thugs or is starving to death, my bet is that they would vote for military intervention to remove Mugabe. Your liberal view that there should never be war is naive, and people in Zimbabwe are dying because of that viewpoint.

Tom

]]> By: Chris Williams http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/hard-to-hide-from-trouble/#comment-21029 Chris Williams Tue, 01 Jul 2008 00:34:13 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3259#comment-21029 Yeah, you're right Tom - let's bomb them. That always works. Yeah, you’re right Tom - let’s bomb them. That always works.

]]> By: tom harlen http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/hard-to-hide-from-trouble/#comment-21016 tom harlen Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:33:23 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3259#comment-21016 Chris, Since the AU has not made a move, the people of Zimbabwe are either going to be killed by Mugabe, or they are going to starve to death. That is some choice that you suggest. Chris,

Since the AU has not made a move, the people of Zimbabwe are either going to be killed by Mugabe, or they are going to starve to death. That is some choice that you suggest.

]]> By: Chris Williams http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/hard-to-hide-from-trouble/#comment-21000 Chris Williams Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:23:07 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3259#comment-21000 Well Tom, you might want to scroll up the thread to where I suggest that there _is_ something that can be done: indict the top 100 ZANU criminals, pardon the rest, and wait for the coup. But it's the AU who need to make the first move. Meanwhile, us UKnians who proclaim that it's morally horrible to stand by could perhaps keep ourselves busy by lobbying our government to overthrow the house of Saud. Well Tom, you might want to scroll up the thread to where I suggest that there _is_ something that can be done: indict the top 100 ZANU criminals, pardon the rest, and wait for the coup. But it’s the AU who need to make the first move. Meanwhile, us UKnians who proclaim that it’s morally horrible to stand by could perhaps keep ourselves busy by lobbying our government to overthrow the house of Saud.

]]> By: tom harlen http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/hard-to-hide-from-trouble/#comment-20995 tom harlen Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:36:21 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3259#comment-20995 Chris, From what you are suggesting, there is nothing that can be done. The people of Zimbabwe should just resign themselves that they are going to die from either Mugabe thugs killing them, or they are going to starve to death. Chris,

From what you are suggesting, there is nothing that can be done. The people of Zimbabwe should just resign themselves that they are going to die from either Mugabe thugs killing them, or they are going to starve to death.

]]> By: Chris Williams http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/hard-to-hide-from-trouble/#comment-20994 Chris Williams Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:09:05 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3259#comment-20994 The alternatives to diplomacy are comprehensive sanctions and/or war. These kill people too, always in numbers larger than ZANU have managed since 1983. Often they kill people in numbers larger than ZANU have ever managed. NB - I have no brief for ZANU, who have royally screwed up the lives of several of my friends. The alternatives to diplomacy are comprehensive sanctions and/or war. These kill people too, always in numbers larger than ZANU have managed since 1983. Often they kill people in numbers larger than ZANU have ever managed.

NB - I have no brief for ZANU, who have royally screwed up the lives of several of my friends.

]]> By: tom harlen http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/hard-to-hide-from-trouble/#comment-20992 tom harlen Fri, 27 Jun 2008 14:19:49 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3259#comment-20992 All of these suggestions for diplomacy are fine, except for the fact that people are dying. This is the problem with diplomacy. All of these suggestions for diplomacy are fine, except for the fact that people are dying. This is the problem with diplomacy.

]]> By: Thabo Mbeki - modern Africa’s shame | kopfzeiler.org http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/hard-to-hide-from-trouble/#comment-20988 Thabo Mbeki - modern Africa’s shame | kopfzeiler.org Thu, 26 Jun 2008 18:38:55 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3259#comment-20988 [...] South Africa’s president Thabo Mbeki has screwed it: While his successor Jacob Zuma beefs up his profile by strongly speaking out against Mr. Mugabe, [...] [...] South Africa’s president Thabo Mbeki has screwed it: While his successor Jacob Zuma beefs up his profile by strongly speaking out against Mr. Mugabe, [...]

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