Comments on: Clueless In and Out of Brussels http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/clueless-in-and-out-of-brussels/ European Opinion Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:08:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: Oliver http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/clueless-in-and-out-of-brussels/#comment-8645 Oliver Sat, 04 Jun 2005 13:19:20 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1456#comment-8645 Update: He wants a pause for fundamental reflections now. Update:

He wants a pause for fundamental reflections now.

]]> By: Oliver http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/clueless-in-and-out-of-brussels/#comment-8644 Oliver Sat, 04 Jun 2005 00:23:15 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1456#comment-8644 BTW, I wouldn't see the CDU criticizing Schroeder for this in a campaign. Yes, the taboo will hold this time. Oh, I see, so your saying that this is a kind of real life prisoners dilemna type thing. Not quite. The opposition wouldn't want it any other way. They can always claim it was his fault, they just inherited the mess. And they want this election to be about the economy and only the economy. BTW, I don't think he has any principled objection to referenda. He just feared the result. The trend is clearly for introducing them for federal legislation (they exist on the federal level for redrawing state lines) eg. all new states have extensive referenda, popular initiatives and recalls. Several states have extended their use of referenda in the last decade. BTW, I wouldn’t see the CDU criticizing Schroeder for this in a campaign.

Yes, the taboo will hold this time.

Oh, I see, so your saying that this is a kind of real life prisoners dilemna type thing.

Not quite. The opposition wouldn’t want it any other way. They can always claim it was his fault, they just inherited the mess. And they want this election to be about the economy and only the economy.

BTW, I don’t think he has any principled objection to referenda. He just feared the result. The trend is clearly for introducing them for federal legislation (they exist on the federal level for redrawing state lines) eg. all new states have extensive referenda, popular initiatives and recalls. Several states have extended their use of referenda in the last decade.

]]> By: Edward http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/clueless-in-and-out-of-brussels/#comment-8643 Edward Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:44:04 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1456#comment-8643 "No, it can't. He'll be gone". Oh, I see, so your saying that this is a kind of real life prisoners dilemna type thing. He encourages the other countries to continue, and this way he doesn't have to find any other solution, in the meatime he's out the back door, leaving his successor in the mess. I mean, short term peace, longer term big bang. “No, it can’t. He’ll be gone”.

Oh, I see, so your saying that this is a kind of real life prisoners dilemna type thing. He encourages the other countries to continue, and this way he doesn’t have to find any other solution, in the meatime he’s out the back door, leaving his successor in the mess.

I mean, short term peace, longer term big bang.

]]> By: Melli http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/clueless-in-and-out-of-brussels/#comment-8642 Melli Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:41:15 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1456#comment-8642 Schroeder didn't say it needed a referendum to decide, just that the countries vote in the way they have chosen to vote for/ against the referendum. BTW, I wouldn't see the CDU criticizing Schroeder for this in a campaign. They too voted largely in both houses for the constitution and only very few propagated the use of a referendum, but the general tone is that a referendum in Germany is just not possible, therefore a parliamentary vote is sufficient. Schroeder didn’t say it needed a referendum to decide, just that the countries vote in the way they have chosen to vote for/ against the referendum.

BTW, I wouldn’t see the CDU criticizing Schroeder for this in a campaign. They too voted largely in both houses for the constitution and only very few propagated the use of a referendum, but the general tone is that a referendum in Germany is just not possible, therefore a parliamentary vote is sufficient.

]]> By: Oliver http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/clueless-in-and-out-of-brussels/#comment-8641 Oliver Fri, 03 Jun 2005 21:53:57 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1456#comment-8641 yes, quite, but this could yet bounce back on him in Germany itself. No, it can't. He'll be gone. yes, quite, but this could yet bounce back on him in Germany itself.

No, it can’t. He’ll be gone.

]]> By: Edward http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/clueless-in-and-out-of-brussels/#comment-8640 Edward Fri, 03 Jun 2005 21:25:56 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1456#comment-8640 "it would be unfair to those countries who haven't voted yet to deny them the chance to vote on the constitution ... ." yes, quite, but this could yet bounce back on him in Germany itself. “it would be unfair to those countries who haven’t voted yet to deny them the chance to vote on the constitution … .”

yes, quite, but this could yet bounce back on him in Germany itself.

]]> By: Melli http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/clueless-in-and-out-of-brussels/#comment-8639 Melli Fri, 03 Jun 2005 20:30:28 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1456#comment-8639 You may be right but Chirac and Schroeder may yet try to hold out for a continuation of the process - it might be stupid of them to do so I think Schroeder said something along those lines this afternoon (based on what I hear on DW-TV): it would be unfair to those countries who haven't voted yet to deny them the chance to vote on the constitution ... . You may be right but Chirac and Schroeder may yet try to hold out for a continuation of the process - it might be stupid of them to do so

I think Schroeder said something along those lines this afternoon (based on what I hear on DW-TV): it would be unfair to those countries who haven’t voted yet to deny them the chance to vote on the constitution … .

]]> By: Peter J. http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/clueless-in-and-out-of-brussels/#comment-8638 Peter J. Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:16:48 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1456#comment-8638 Anyway, this is rather academic, since there won't be a referendum in the UK, not on this constitution anyway :) You may be right but Chirac and Schroeder may yet try to hold out for a continuation of the process - it might be stupid of them to do so but then politicians are often stupid. My original point was bascially that these latter two may try to "enmerde" Blair - remember they don't like his "anglo-saxon capitalist model" the "New Communism" was how Chirac described it .... Anyway, this is rather academic, since there won’t be a referendum in the UK, not on this constitution anyway :)
You may be right but Chirac and Schroeder may yet try to hold out for a continuation of the process - it might be stupid of them to do so but then politicians are often stupid. My original point was bascially that these latter two may try to “enmerde” Blair - remember they don’t like his “anglo-saxon capitalist model” the “New Communism” was how Chirac described it ….

]]> By: J. Seidel http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/clueless-in-and-out-of-brussels/#comment-8637 J. Seidel Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:12:31 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1456#comment-8637 Send in the Ubercrats! I like that, the EU as idol...but I also think that the two kinds of perspectives introduced by the N-man are relevant - master and slave moralities...And to kill one's god might encourage (to borrow from Nietzsche) the killers to become like gods to justify and make themselves worthy of the dirty (or liberatory) deed... We just might be in need of the Uber-Eurocrat --those who can rise above the moralistic (good vs bad)not beholden to the slave morality (which itself is power used by the masses)...but is this democracy? Send in the Ubercrats!

I like that, the EU as idol…but I also think that the two kinds of perspectives introduced by the N-man are relevant - master and slave moralities…And to kill one’s god might encourage (to borrow from Nietzsche) the killers to become like gods to justify and make themselves worthy of the dirty (or liberatory) deed…

We just might be in need of the Uber-Eurocrat –those who can rise above the moralistic (good vs bad)not beholden to the slave morality (which itself is power used by the masses)…but is this democracy?

]]> By: Edward http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/clueless-in-and-out-of-brussels/#comment-8636 Edward Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:01:05 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1456#comment-8636 "Blair has already said he backs the EU Constitution so he would have to campaign for a "Yes"." No, I don't think this is necessarily so. I'm not sure I would be campaigning for a yes in this situation in the UK, mainly for the reasons I've already outlined, that with so much opinion evidently against, you need a rethink. We don't want to pit one country against another in the way Bolkende tried. Anyway, this is rather academic, since there won't be a referendum in the UK, not on this constitution anyway :). “Blair has already said he backs the EU Constitution so he would have to campaign for a “Yes”.”

No, I don’t think this is necessarily so. I’m not sure I would be campaigning for a yes in this situation in the UK, mainly for the reasons I’ve already outlined, that with so much opinion evidently against, you need a rethink. We don’t want to pit one country against another in the way Bolkende tried.

Anyway, this is rather academic, since there won’t be a referendum in the UK, not on this constitution anyway :).

]]>