Because it’s a lot easier to sing ‘Fuck the Pope’ than ‘Fuck the General Moderator of the Assembly of the Church of Scotland’

It’s complex, the question would be whether some of those who did the killing were able to find comfort in their faith. My guess is they were. John is also right to raise the questions about the protestant extremsts. The basis of the feud could well be seen in a theological view of the figure of the virgin mary in Christianity and the role of the pope as god’s representative on earth. But of course you can also give “touch-feely” social explanations (ie the ones you don’t like).

The 8 people who were savagely gunned down in a Belfast bar following the Republic of Ireland’s victory over Italy in the world cup were killed in the name of ‘No Popery’. I don’t imagine they needed to issue a communique.

BTW in Kosovo I don’t think we should miss the point that it was Orthodox Christianity which was used as an ‘aid and comfort’ for the massacre of members of another faith, in this case muslims.

Didn?t the ?Loyalists? kill more people ? Perhaps the Protestants were fighting on religious grounds more that the nationalists were ? resistance to incorporation into an Irish state in which Church doctrine determines law to some extent.

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The Pakistan connection is worrying because a lot of the security establishment in Pakistan is sympathetic to the Jihadists. Since we can?t watch everybody who goes on holiday there, we?ll have to rely on their community telling us about those who come back weird. And here, I admit we have a problem, since the bombers own parents didn?t seem to notice much change.

Anyway, Edward?s link to the description of life in Beeston shows that the issue is not just a matter of ideology but of how that ideology fits into a way of life. For the young, it?s going to be confusing.. They?re pulled in different directions and the temptation is to come down hard one side or the other ? especially those who?ve grown up Muslim but have had enough education to grasp how alien Islam is in a European context.

It?s not something those of us without any experience of such problems find easy to understand. If we make the effort, we may discover just how difficult an issue it is to grasp, because we?ll have to address the way an Islamic upbringing shapes a person?s self definition. Those ways are a lot more unfamiliar to us than we?re used to, from the religious spectrum we already know - Catholic, Jewish, Orthodox. I think we need some well-informed sociology that isn?t predetermined by the desire to reach a conventionally ?anti-racist? ?pro-diversity? answer. This is not at all a racist point, by the way.

The danger is not just going to fade away. There will be other conflicts with Islamic countries, other humiliations of the Ummah, and perhaps domestic issues. We need a long-term perspective as well as good policing.

I’m not at all familiar with the IRA, but my understanding was it was an Irish nationalist movement. Did the IRA every set off a bomb in Britain, then release a communique quoting the Bible? Or something similar?

Threaten, people inside the church did this plenty of times, actually do it, only during the first half of the last century I think (someone please correct me if I am wrong here). During the ‘troubles’ protestant fanatics made a lot of issues about this. There might seem to some to be an inconsistency in denying consecrated ground to someone who for some tragic reason takes his own life whilst granting a person who dies manipulating a bomb intended for innocent civilians burial rights with full military honours.

In this sense the UK is well accustomed to politically inspired terrorism with a religious dimension.

Britain’s largest Sunni group on Sunday issued a binding religious edict, known as a fatwa, condemning the July 7 suicide bombings in London. The Sunni Council said the bombings in London trains and a double-decker bus were against Islam, adding that any type of suicide attack was against the Quran. The attacks killed 55 people, including the four bombers, who were Muslims.

Obviously this is to be welcomed. I am not sure though that it will have any direct effect on those who are politically bent on terrorism, any more than the threat of excommunication by the Roman Catholic church was in the case of members of the Provisional IRA.

Everything up to here fair comment, and I broadly agree (ie about the US). What I also believe is that societies and communities evolve, and that is what we all need top do here, evolve. I suppose Rupert, you’ve got me wrong, I’m not one of those “touch feely everything-has-a-socialeconomic-cause” type of people at all, rather I am in the humanist tradition. I don’t believe we are determined either by our history or by our genetics, we are influenced by them but not determined by them, we can change. As I said, I am not a reductionist, and I think the future is an open question.

“The Muslim immigrants of the 50’s and 60’s came from a time of great European influence on Muslim thought, hence their greater willingness to become European.”

Yes, I agree…there was Arab nationalism in the shap of Nasser, Asad and of course secular Baathism in Egypt, Syria and Iraq, and the whole situation was different in Pakistan with Bhutto et al. But somewhere along the road we lost it.

I hate anti-semitism, and defend Israel’s right to live in peace, but if someone had had the courage to resolve the Israel/Palestine question back then, history might have been very different.

“But a rational look at the facts on the ground indicate that Muslims in Britain at least, are in pretty good shape.”

Again I think this is true, if it wasn’t they wouldn’t keep coming.

“But I think it can be argued that this new generation of Muslims is simply reverting to traditional Muslim thought. Europe is Dar-al-Harb, a place where Muslims are persecuted and must therefore be resisted.”

This, I think is the issue. If this was true the ‘experiment’ is doomed to failure. But I don’t believe it is. I think the road is a difficult one, but we have little alternative other than to embrace it. I think those who live in Europe and feel the way you describe are a small minority. I couldn’t give you a percentage. I think many UK muslims are now in a state of shock, and it is our role to try and help them make the transition, in this sense I very much endorse Ian Blair’s sentiments.

It turns out the three Leeds bombers had actually been banned from the local mosques, the question is why Scotland yard didn’t know this. What is security and communication like?

On the position of religious leaders, the position is not that different from Bishops in Belfast and Bilbao who, in their time, have found it difficult to condemn what is obviously to be condemned. This weekend we have made a start, but only a start.