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	<title>Comments on: Beslan, Pt. 2</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/beslan-pt-2/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: DoDo</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/beslan-pt-2/#comment-4775</link>
		<dc:creator>DoDo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Michael S, I quoted the ARD article not because it would mention examples of toy bombs, but because it points out that it is hard to tell whether Russian or Chechen claims of who made these weapons is true when no international de-mining experts are allowed in. I suspect such and similar limitations also explain why you didn't find anything from HRW.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael S, I quoted the ARD article not because it would mention examples of toy bombs, but because it points out that it is hard to tell whether Russian or Chechen claims of who made these weapons is true when no international de-mining experts are allowed in. I suspect such and similar limitations also explain why you didn&#8217;t find anything from HRW.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/beslan-pt-2/#comment-4774</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>While I lived in Russia, during the early years of the 2nd chechan war, Russia specifially shelled the university in Grozny during finals, calling it a bed of terrorists.  (It was in Jan. '00).  Does this count as vile, too, or does that only apply to primary schools?  I'd pick the former.  It was clearly done for terror reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I lived in Russia, during the early years of the 2nd chechan war, Russia specifially shelled the university in Grozny during finals, calling it a bed of terrorists.  (It was in Jan. &#8216;00).  Does this count as vile, too, or does that only apply to primary schools?  I&#8217;d pick the former.  It was clearly done for terror reasons.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael S</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/beslan-pt-2/#comment-4773</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Sep 2004 07:19:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>DoDo,

I agree, the Tamil Tiger bombings are important for context. I don't mention them only because I know very little about Sri Lanka.

As for the disguised booby-traps, I would imagine that rebels warn the people living in the vicinity. The ARD article doesn't mention examples of toy bombs (does anyone?), but cigarette lighters and cassette decks sound much like what the soldiers -- mostly teenagers from the lower income bracket -- might be tempted to pick up. That would be my conjecture, anyway. Google doesn't seem to bring up anything relevant in HRW reports.

By the way, the Recent Comments bar above shows a couple of my responses to your comments under older posts. (This is just to make sure I'm not arguing with you behind your back.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DoDo,</p>
<p>I agree, the Tamil Tiger bombings are important for context. I don&#8217;t mention them only because I know very little about Sri Lanka.</p>
<p>As for the disguised booby-traps, I would imagine that rebels warn the people living in the vicinity. The ARD article doesn&#8217;t mention examples of toy bombs (does anyone?), but cigarette lighters and cassette decks sound much like what the soldiers &#8212; mostly teenagers from the lower income bracket &#8212; might be tempted to pick up. That would be my conjecture, anyway. Google doesn&#8217;t seem to bring up anything relevant in HRW reports.</p>
<p>By the way, the Recent Comments bar above shows a couple of my responses to your comments under older posts. (This is just to make sure I&#8217;m not arguing with you behind your back.)</p>
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		<title>By: DoDo</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/beslan-pt-2/#comment-4772</link>
		<dc:creator>DoDo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Sep 2004 04:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=809#comment-4772</guid>
		<description>Michael S, your point about the distinction of Palestinian suicide bombings from its Hezbollah and Iranian origins is well taken, but then you should consider separate traditions of indiscriminate guerilla martyrdom for al-Qaida and Tamil separatists.

As for the booby-trapped toys, obviously both sides would blame it on the other, but I can hardly think of a reason why even the most cruel followers of Basajev would plant such. (As for 'homemade', aren't all booby-trapped toys are homemade?) Tough its hard to tell when no international de-mining experts are allowed in, as German TV ARD notes. (BTW, this abomination is more common than we'd like to believe; this NATO release speaks about de-mining such in Bosnia, where IIRC both Serbs and Muslims used this 'weapon'.) 

Doug, OK, it is a useful shorthand :-) The reason of my pickyness (I just admonished Edward for a 'the Kurds' too :-)) is that while normally language expresses thoughts, sometimes thoughts [not only the utterer's] are influenced by language - and I fear more direct danger to more people with 'the Kurds' or 'the Chechens' than with 'the Russians' or 'the Americans', at least presently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael S, your point about the distinction of Palestinian suicide bombings from its Hezbollah and Iranian origins is well taken, but then you should consider separate traditions of indiscriminate guerilla martyrdom for al-Qaida and Tamil separatists.</p>
<p>As for the booby-trapped toys, obviously both sides would blame it on the other, but I can hardly think of a reason why even the most cruel followers of Basajev would plant such. (As for &#8216;homemade&#8217;, aren&#8217;t all booby-trapped toys are homemade?) Tough its hard to tell when no international de-mining experts are allowed in, as German TV ARD notes. (BTW, this abomination is more common than we&#8217;d like to believe; this NATO release speaks about de-mining such in Bosnia, where IIRC both Serbs and Muslims used this &#8216;weapon&#8217;.) </p>
<p>Doug, OK, it is a useful shorthand <img src='http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> The reason of my pickyness (I just admonished Edward for a &#8216;the Kurds&#8217; too :-)) is that while normally language expresses thoughts, sometimes thoughts [not only the utterer's] are influenced by language - and I fear more direct danger to more people with &#8216;the Kurds&#8217; or &#8216;the Chechens&#8217; than with &#8216;the Russians&#8217; or &#8216;the Americans&#8217;, at least presently.</p>
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		<title>By: RSN</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/beslan-pt-2/#comment-4771</link>
		<dc:creator>RSN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Sep 2004 03:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=809#comment-4771</guid>
		<description>The Russians seem to have changed their tone, somewhat:

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=39076</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Russians seem to have changed their tone, somewhat:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=39076" rel="nofollow">http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=39076</a></p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/beslan-pt-2/#comment-4770</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=809#comment-4770</guid>
		<description>DoDo, re "the Chechens," not the best formulation, I agree, but not completely objectionable shorthand. Later, you'll probably catch me talking about "the Russians" as well, and if I had a dime for every time somebody wrote about "the U.S." or "the Americans" I'd be blogging a lot more because I wouldn't have to work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DoDo, re &#8220;the Chechens,&#8221; not the best formulation, I agree, but not completely objectionable shorthand. Later, you&#8217;ll probably catch me talking about &#8220;the Russians&#8221; as well, and if I had a dime for every time somebody wrote about &#8220;the U.S.&#8221; or &#8220;the Americans&#8221; I&#8217;d be blogging a lot more because I wouldn&#8217;t have to work.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael S</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/beslan-pt-2/#comment-4769</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Sep 2004 06:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=809#comment-4769</guid>
		<description>DoDo,

Suicide missions were of course a big deal in Iran during the Iran-Iraq war. I think these belonged entirely to the realm of battlefield sacrifice, which was glorified since time immemorial. It's very probable, given its religious Shi'a overtones, that the cult found an ideological echo in the Hezbollah bombings, aside from the apparent logistical support. Nonetheless, I think the Hezbollah is celebrated in the Arab world primarily as a traditional guerilla group. By Palestine-based I meant the cult of suicide bombings against civilians as a popular and media phenomenon, with the fame, the glorification, and all the rest. Aside from breaking the classic formula of atrocity -- kill the men, rape the women, burn down the house, and spare the children (why are children special? not sure, but I think it's something in our genes) -- the Beslan massacre just like much of today's terrorism was clearly conceived as a spectacle to be experienced in the privacy our living rooms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DoDo,</p>
<p>Suicide missions were of course a big deal in Iran during the Iran-Iraq war. I think these belonged entirely to the realm of battlefield sacrifice, which was glorified since time immemorial. It&#8217;s very probable, given its religious Shi&#8217;a overtones, that the cult found an ideological echo in the Hezbollah bombings, aside from the apparent logistical support. Nonetheless, I think the Hezbollah is celebrated in the Arab world primarily as a traditional guerilla group. By Palestine-based I meant the cult of suicide bombings against civilians as a popular and media phenomenon, with the fame, the glorification, and all the rest. Aside from breaking the classic formula of atrocity &#8212; kill the men, rape the women, burn down the house, and spare the children (why are children special? not sure, but I think it&#8217;s something in our genes) &#8212; the Beslan massacre just like much of today&#8217;s terrorism was clearly conceived as a spectacle to be experienced in the privacy our living rooms.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael S</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/beslan-pt-2/#comment-4768</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Sep 2004 05:55:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=809#comment-4768</guid>
		<description>No, it is a practice in Chechnya too. There are several such claims from Chechen ex-pats, but here is one SFGate article that refers to it. 

Hmm...

Thousands of children in Chechnya have died or lost their limbs after stepping on land mines or picking up unexploded ordnance or homemade bombs disguised as toys, videotapes or cigarette lighters, relief agencies say.

Yes, I've seen reports of rebel IEDs disguised as toys, which is I think what is meant here. I remain sceptical about the claim for Afghanistan, for the same reasons that Blum mentions in the chapter I linked to. I mean, given credible evidence, I wouldn't be shocked to note isolated acts of exceptionally perverted revenge in Afghanistan, and even in Chechnya, though the conflict there is a few notches less brutal.  But, particularly as a "practice" it strikes me as rather far-fetched.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, it is a practice in Chechnya too. There are several such claims from Chechen ex-pats, but here is one SFGate article that refers to it. </p>
<p>Hmm&#8230;</p>
<p>Thousands of children in Chechnya have died or lost their limbs after stepping on land mines or picking up unexploded ordnance or homemade bombs disguised as toys, videotapes or cigarette lighters, relief agencies say.</p>
<p>Yes, I&#8217;ve seen reports of rebel IEDs disguised as toys, which is I think what is meant here. I remain sceptical about the claim for Afghanistan, for the same reasons that Blum mentions in the chapter I linked to. I mean, given credible evidence, I wouldn&#8217;t be shocked to note isolated acts of exceptionally perverted revenge in Afghanistan, and even in Chechnya, though the conflict there is a few notches less brutal.  But, particularly as a &#8220;practice&#8221; it strikes me as rather far-fetched.</p>
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		<title>By: DoDo</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/beslan-pt-2/#comment-4767</link>
		<dc:creator>DoDo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Sep 2004 05:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=809#comment-4767</guid>
		<description>SFGate article</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SFGate article</p>
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		<title>By: DoDo</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/beslan-pt-2/#comment-4766</link>
		<dc:creator>DoDo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Sep 2004 05:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=809#comment-4766</guid>
		<description>Michael S, not disputing your main point that indiscriminate guerilla martyrdom is something original and novel that is happening to the entire "civilized" world; isn't modern guerilla martyrdom in the Middle East[*] Iran-based? Spreading first in the eighties to the also Shi'a Hezbollah in Lebanon, and only in the nineties to Sunnite Hamas in Palestine? (The first suicide bombing in Israel was sold as "response" to the Baruch Goldstein massacre.)

[*] I read somewhere that by far the most suicide attacks were committed by the Tamil separatists on Sri Lanka, but I don't have it handy - and have no clue whether Iranians were influenced by their example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael S, not disputing your main point that indiscriminate guerilla martyrdom is something original and novel that is happening to the entire &#8220;civilized&#8221; world; isn&#8217;t modern guerilla martyrdom in the Middle East[*] Iran-based? Spreading first in the eighties to the also Shi&#8217;a Hezbollah in Lebanon, and only in the nineties to Sunnite Hamas in Palestine? (The first suicide bombing in Israel was sold as &#8220;response&#8221; to the Baruch Goldstein massacre.)</p>
<p>[*] I read somewhere that by far the most suicide attacks were committed by the Tamil separatists on Sri Lanka, but I don&#8217;t have it handy - and have no clue whether Iranians were influenced by their example.</p>
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