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	<title>Comments on: An unpleasant anecdote from 1999</title>
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	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 07:39:06 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Murder and organ harvesting in Albania &#124; afoe &#124; A Fistful of Euros &#124; European Opinion</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999/comment-page-1/#comment-44664</link>
		<dc:creator>Murder and organ harvesting in Albania &#124; afoe &#124; A Fistful of Euros &#124; European Opinion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Dec 2010 15:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999#comment-44664</guid>
		<description>[...] this story first broke, I wrote a long-ish post about it here at the Fistful. For various reasons, I was extremely skeptical.  Okay, then. How believable is [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] this story first broke, I wrote a long-ish post about it here at the Fistful. For various reasons, I was extremely skeptical.  Okay, then. How believable is [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Muir</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999/comment-page-1/#comment-19990</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Muir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:38:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999#comment-19990</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right on the edge of deletion, &quot;R&quot;.  But since I try to keep this an open forum -- even for denialists and such -- I&#039;m erring on the side of caution.  Mind your manners.

I note in passing that the ICTY places the death toll at-and-around Srebrenica at approximately 8,000, not 2,000.  Also that the majority of those killed were civilians, not &quot;prisoners of war&quot;.  The Dutch government agrees, as does the IWPR.  Then of course there&#039;s the Republika Srpska&#039;s official apology, which set the number at &quot;several thousand&quot; including &quot;many&quot; civilians.

I&#039;m guessing you&#039;re pulling your information from the first &quot;official&quot; RS report -- it gave that same figure of 2,000, and the same claim that all the victims were combatants.  It was subsequently withdrawn, but it&#039;s still in wide circulation among Serb nationalists and their friends.


Doug M.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right on the edge of deletion, &#8220;R&#8221;.  But since I try to keep this an open forum &#8212; even for denialists and such &#8212; I&#8217;m erring on the side of caution.  Mind your manners.</p>
<p>I note in passing that the ICTY places the death toll at-and-around Srebrenica at approximately 8,000, not 2,000.  Also that the majority of those killed were civilians, not &#8220;prisoners of war&#8221;.  The Dutch government agrees, as does the IWPR.  Then of course there&#8217;s the Republika Srpska&#8217;s official apology, which set the number at &#8220;several thousand&#8221; including &#8220;many&#8221; civilians.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m guessing you&#8217;re pulling your information from the first &#8220;official&#8221; RS report &#8212; it gave that same figure of 2,000, and the same claim that all the victims were combatants.  It was subsequently withdrawn, but it&#8217;s still in wide circulation among Serb nationalists and their friends.</p>
<p>Doug M.</p>
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		<title>By: R</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999/comment-page-1/#comment-19972</link>
		<dc:creator>R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 06:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999#comment-19972</guid>
		<description>The first to confess and be convicted of the shootings of former Srebrenica defenders by the way was a Croat who had served if I&#039;m not mistaken in at least two other of the armies of ex-Yugoslavia before finding his way in the VRS&#039;s 10th Sabotage Detachment... The VRS had manpower shortages which unfortunately caused them to take on such &quot;help&quot; as Mr Erdemovic...

The organ allegation makes perfect sense in a way that the human blood banks do not. An army such as the VJ has already means to get the necessary blood for its troops. It could certainly get the necessary blood from volunteers. It had no use for human blood banks. The KLA, as part of organised crime, had kidnapped scores of people for terror purposes, and had a wonderful way to both increase terror and make some money mafia style on the side. Win-win as far as the KLA is concerned. 

As for any risks, there were none. Chechen rebels committed gruesome crimes including dismemberments of Western citizens and yet the media was uniformly singing their praises and bashing the Russians despite that. The KLA knows that there is no crime big enough that it  can commit to end the unconditional Western support it is getting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The first to confess and be convicted of the shootings of former Srebrenica defenders by the way was a Croat who had served if I&#8217;m not mistaken in at least two other of the armies of ex-Yugoslavia before finding his way in the VRS&#8217;s 10th Sabotage Detachment&#8230; The VRS had manpower shortages which unfortunately caused them to take on such &#8220;help&#8221; as Mr Erdemovic&#8230;</p>
<p>The organ allegation makes perfect sense in a way that the human blood banks do not. An army such as the VJ has already means to get the necessary blood for its troops. It could certainly get the necessary blood from volunteers. It had no use for human blood banks. The KLA, as part of organised crime, had kidnapped scores of people for terror purposes, and had a wonderful way to both increase terror and make some money mafia style on the side. Win-win as far as the KLA is concerned. </p>
<p>As for any risks, there were none. Chechen rebels committed gruesome crimes including dismemberments of Western citizens and yet the media was uniformly singing their praises and bashing the Russians despite that. The KLA knows that there is no crime big enough that it  can commit to end the unconditional Western support it is getting.</p>
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		<title>By: R</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999/comment-page-1/#comment-19970</link>
		<dc:creator>R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 06:19:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999#comment-19970</guid>
		<description>Denying Srebrenica? Hardly. I simply state that what they call the Srebrenica Massacre didn&#039;t happen in Srebrenica at all. It took place in villages in the area of Zvornik, to the north of Srebrenica. Prisoners of war from the 28th Division were captured from the 12th of July to the 15th at various points during their journey to Tuzla, and prisoners were shuttled about before several hundred of them were shot in the Zvornik area (up to 2,000 they have proven so far). This is what the documentation states. This is what the trials at the ICTY have revealed. It&#039;s not that complicated.

At any rate, the Israelis did the same thing at el-Arish during the Six Day War. No one considered to be respectable is accusing them of genocide for that act.

As for your speaking out in favour of organ harvesters, that&#039;s your own problem. Claiming it to be impossible is a cop out. Organised crime involved in white slavery is capable of almost anything to make money...

It&#039;s likely that some of the victims of the butchery were some of these white slaves taken from Ukraine and Moldavia, you know, countries that are so much better off as allies of Nato.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Denying Srebrenica? Hardly. I simply state that what they call the Srebrenica Massacre didn&#8217;t happen in Srebrenica at all. It took place in villages in the area of Zvornik, to the north of Srebrenica. Prisoners of war from the 28th Division were captured from the 12th of July to the 15th at various points during their journey to Tuzla, and prisoners were shuttled about before several hundred of them were shot in the Zvornik area (up to 2,000 they have proven so far). This is what the documentation states. This is what the trials at the ICTY have revealed. It&#8217;s not that complicated.</p>
<p>At any rate, the Israelis did the same thing at el-Arish during the Six Day War. No one considered to be respectable is accusing them of genocide for that act.</p>
<p>As for your speaking out in favour of organ harvesters, that&#8217;s your own problem. Claiming it to be impossible is a cop out. Organised crime involved in white slavery is capable of almost anything to make money&#8230;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s likely that some of the victims of the butchery were some of these white slaves taken from Ukraine and Moldavia, you know, countries that are so much better off as allies of Nato.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Karadjis</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999/comment-page-1/#comment-19930</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Karadjis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999#comment-19930</guid>
		<description>Very good trashing of this piece of demonisation. Not that Albanians or KLA folk weren&#039;t as capable as anyone else, particualry in war, of being brutal, but it is somewhat appalling that any decent leftist would pump this story based entirely on hearsay about Albanians harvesting Serb body parts, when the same people would have rightly rejected stories such as the one about Serbian forces using Albanians as blood banks in 1999.

Just one detail here: Del Ponte;s book actually reads &quot;Among the prisoners who were taken to these barracks were women from Kosovo, Albania, Russia and other Slavic countries.&quot; It says nothing about Serbs. Of course, in the unlikely event this story does actually have some truth, it is quite plausible that many of those from Kosovo were K Serbs, though since she also says &quot;Albania&quot;, it suggests the aleged operators didn&#039;t have many ethnic biases. Why would they if they were out to make a buck? This actualy calls into question even more the suggestion, from Del Pontes version based even more fully on hearsay, that high ranking KLA members approved or were involved. More likely K Albanian criminals with merely criminal aims. The KLA may not be nice, but blowing up that alleged aspect is merely an attempt to demonsie in order to delegitimise their legitimate struggle for an independent Kosova.

Finally:

&quot;Richard Says: 
March 27th, 2008 at 8:14 pm Doug M,
My understanding is that a total of 95,000 people died in the various conflicts surrounding the breakup of Yugoslavia, all ethnic groups confounded. Do we have an idea of the breakdown by ethnic group of those killed?&quot;

Here&#039;s my detailed answer to that - which conclusively shows how much bullshit was the left-liberal idea that Bosnia was a mere &quot;civil war&quot; between &quot;three sides&quot;:

http://mihalisk.blogspot.com/2007/10/how-many-and-who-died-in-bosnia.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good trashing of this piece of demonisation. Not that Albanians or KLA folk weren&#8217;t as capable as anyone else, particualry in war, of being brutal, but it is somewhat appalling that any decent leftist would pump this story based entirely on hearsay about Albanians harvesting Serb body parts, when the same people would have rightly rejected stories such as the one about Serbian forces using Albanians as blood banks in 1999.</p>
<p>Just one detail here: Del Ponte;s book actually reads &#8220;Among the prisoners who were taken to these barracks were women from Kosovo, Albania, Russia and other Slavic countries.&#8221; It says nothing about Serbs. Of course, in the unlikely event this story does actually have some truth, it is quite plausible that many of those from Kosovo were K Serbs, though since she also says &#8220;Albania&#8221;, it suggests the aleged operators didn&#8217;t have many ethnic biases. Why would they if they were out to make a buck? This actualy calls into question even more the suggestion, from Del Pontes version based even more fully on hearsay, that high ranking KLA members approved or were involved. More likely K Albanian criminals with merely criminal aims. The KLA may not be nice, but blowing up that alleged aspect is merely an attempt to demonsie in order to delegitimise their legitimate struggle for an independent Kosova.</p>
<p>Finally:</p>
<p>&#8220;Richard Says:<br />
March 27th, 2008 at 8:14 pm Doug M,<br />
My understanding is that a total of 95,000 people died in the various conflicts surrounding the breakup of Yugoslavia, all ethnic groups confounded. Do we have an idea of the breakdown by ethnic group of those killed?&#8221;</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s my detailed answer to that &#8211; which conclusively shows how much bullshit was the left-liberal idea that Bosnia was a mere &#8220;civil war&#8221; between &#8220;three sides&#8221;:</p>
<p><a href="http://mihalisk.blogspot.com/2007/10/how-many-and-who-died-in-bosnia.html" rel="nofollow">http://mihalisk.blogspot.com/2007/10/how-many-and-who-died-in-bosnia.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: bganon</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999/comment-page-1/#comment-19874</link>
		<dc:creator>bganon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 00:01:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999#comment-19874</guid>
		<description>R if you sincerely care about the Serbian cause (insomuch as you believe that one exists) you might think about drawing attention to this issue without denying Srebrenica in the next breath.

Most people in Serbia accept that some very torrid things occurred in Srebrenica, although figures might be disputed. My opinion is a dignified silence is better than denial. Whatever went on there is not to the credit of the Serbs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R if you sincerely care about the Serbian cause (insomuch as you believe that one exists) you might think about drawing attention to this issue without denying Srebrenica in the next breath.</p>
<p>Most people in Serbia accept that some very torrid things occurred in Srebrenica, although figures might be disputed. My opinion is a dignified silence is better than denial. Whatever went on there is not to the credit of the Serbs.</p>
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		<title>By: bganon</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999/comment-page-1/#comment-19873</link>
		<dc:creator>bganon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999#comment-19873</guid>
		<description>Well the story has become front page news in the British newspapers today - I don&#039;t know why the delayed reaction.

Still, its a positive, if there is any chance of finding substance to these allegations it wont be through Serbian requests, it will be through pressure from outside:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/12/warcrimes.kosovo

Also see the British Daily Telegraph.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well the story has become front page news in the British newspapers today &#8211; I don&#8217;t know why the delayed reaction.</p>
<p>Still, its a positive, if there is any chance of finding substance to these allegations it wont be through Serbian requests, it will be through pressure from outside:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/12/warcrimes.kosovo" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/12/warcrimes.kosovo</a></p>
<p>Also see the British Daily Telegraph.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug M.</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999/comment-page-1/#comment-19870</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:50:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999#comment-19870</guid>
		<description>Well, in a word, nonsense; uncomfirmed  assertion; bullshit; and bullshit.

(&quot;Shot as POWs&quot;?  WTF?)


Doug M.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, in a word, nonsense; uncomfirmed  assertion; bullshit; and bullshit.</p>
<p>(&#8220;Shot as POWs&#8221;?  WTF?)</p>
<p>Doug M.</p>
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		<title>By: R</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999/comment-page-1/#comment-19869</link>
		<dc:creator>R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:01:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999#comment-19869</guid>
		<description>The organ story has come out in the Western media. It&#039;s perfectly plausible. It&#039;s said that the KLA is too primitive to carry it out. Nonsense. Good money can be made on trafficking organs, it&#039;s an easy matter for a mafia to invest the money in medical equipment required to carry it off.

The KLA zone in question here is that of the recently-acquitted Ramush Haradinaj. He is also known for a mass grave containing 60 bodies near Donji Ratis that was discovered 9 September 1998 which was not mentioned at his so-called trial.

There was no massacre in Srebrenica. Rather, prisoners of war from Izetbegovic&#039;s 28th Division were shot in the Zvornik area. The 28th had broken out of Srebrenica the 11th July 1995 and and many were captured in subsequent days. As many as 2,000 of them were shot as PoWs.

The Serbian government arrested suspects in connexion with these shootings, men linked to the Croat Erdemovic convicted at The Hague for the shootings. When Zoran Djindjic took power on 5 October 2000, the suspects were almost immediately released.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The organ story has come out in the Western media. It&#8217;s perfectly plausible. It&#8217;s said that the KLA is too primitive to carry it out. Nonsense. Good money can be made on trafficking organs, it&#8217;s an easy matter for a mafia to invest the money in medical equipment required to carry it off.</p>
<p>The KLA zone in question here is that of the recently-acquitted Ramush Haradinaj. He is also known for a mass grave containing 60 bodies near Donji Ratis that was discovered 9 September 1998 which was not mentioned at his so-called trial.</p>
<p>There was no massacre in Srebrenica. Rather, prisoners of war from Izetbegovic&#8217;s 28th Division were shot in the Zvornik area. The 28th had broken out of Srebrenica the 11th July 1995 and and many were captured in subsequent days. As many as 2,000 of them were shot as PoWs.</p>
<p>The Serbian government arrested suspects in connexion with these shootings, men linked to the Croat Erdemovic convicted at The Hague for the shootings. When Zoran Djindjic took power on 5 October 2000, the suspects were almost immediately released.</p>
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		<title>By: Can&#8217;t believe all you read in the media&#8230; &#124; afoe &#124; A Fistful of Euros &#124; European Opinion</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999/comment-page-1/#comment-19664</link>
		<dc:creator>Can&#8217;t believe all you read in the media&#8230; &#124; afoe &#124; A Fistful of Euros &#124; European Opinion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:18:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/terrorism/an-unpleasant-anecdote-from-1999#comment-19664</guid>
		<description>[...] getting rather worried about the normally reliable B92. Doug M expertly dissected the organ-legging story a week or so ago; I&#8217;ve just come across this article from 26 March [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] getting rather worried about the normally reliable B92. Doug M expertly dissected the organ-legging story a week or so ago; I&#8217;ve just come across this article from 26 March [...]</p>
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