The latest news from Macedonia: a local art gallery did a billboard showing the Greek flag with a swastika in place of the cross.
The Greeks have, of course, gone completely apeshit. Front page news, demonstrations, formal diplomatic protest.
This is one of those perfect Balkan storms where you have obnoxious and stupid behavior that leads to even more obnoxious and stupid behavior. The billboards are both obnoxious and stupid; they’re nothing but a finger in the eye to Athens, and deliberately done a few days before the NATO summit where Macedonia’s membership is on the table. The owner of the art gallery apparently is from Greek Macedonia, where the Greeks have been treating the Macedonians like dirt since they took over in 1913, but that’s neither here nor there; it’s just a really fucking stupid thing to do.
That said, the Greek response is even dumber: demands that Macedonia take the billboards down and apologize. (The billboards are paid for by a private organization, so the government can’t do much about them and isn’t responsible for them.) This accompanied by a descent into narcissistic, self-righteous outrage that’s… well, I wanted to say very Balkan, but in this case there’s something particularly Greek about it.
Anyway. This pretty much eliminates Macedonia’s chance of joining NATO this year. Which by itself is no big deal — the Greeks were probably going to veto them anyhow — but Athens has been given a wonderful gift. Now instead of being disgusted by Greek stupidity and stubbornness, the rest of NATO will be disgusted by both parties. So, a net loss for Macedonia.
There are already plenty of the usual Balkan conspiracy theories floating around, but you know? Sometimes stupidity is all.
I should probably add here that I lived in the Balkans for five years and hope to go back and live there some more. But: Jesus Christ, people. Is it something in the water?
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April 1st, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Personally I think that they should make “shooting yourself in the foot” an Olympic sport. A Balkan country would take gold every time, which would be a big morale booster.
April 2nd, 2008 at 12:56 am
Call me old-fashioned, but I for one do not believe in the freedom of expression when that expression is clearly intended to offend someone else.
I don’t think there’s anything ‘in the water’, I just think that the Balkan countries (particularly Macedonia) are too often led by unexperienced leaders that are incapable of long term planning and are satisfied with short term political maneuvers.
Macedonia boasts the world’s youngest prime minister, but I don’t think that’s something to boast about. Many people believe that Macedonia lacks an identity and that’s why it has to “steal” from others, but in my opinion they lack a long term strategy and political vision that goes beyond the next 4 years (next elections).
Macedonia shares borders with Greece, Albania, Kosovo, Serbia and Bulgaria. It’s not particularly good friends with any of them.
It angered Greece, in addition to everything else, by naming it’s main airport “Alexander the Great” - not a great political move in my opinion - and now it allows certain groups to link Greece with Nazism (a clear copycat of vintage Serbian anti-Western, anti-NATO, anti-US campaigns).
It angered Albanians in Albania and Kosovo by suggesting Mother Teresa ‘could have’ been ethnically Macedonian, which is something than a seven year old can debunk in a minute.
It angered Serbia by arresting some Serbian monks in their churches a year or two ago.
And, finally, the Bulgarians believe that Macedonians are ethnic Bulgarians so the relations between the two are not great. The world’s youngest ever prime minister has recently declared himself to be ethnically Bulgarian, which has further added fuel to the fire of “identity issue.”
Now, I am not even trying to suggest that Macedonians are to blame for all or most of these issues, but the question has to be asked does Macedonia really need more of the “world record-breaking” prime ministers and leaders with no experience or do they need some more elder, more mature statesmen and women that can create long term regional alliances with neighbours.
In my opinion, NATO membership would have been like a badge of a “stable and secure country” (not a bad badge to wear in front of foreign investors) and it looks like they will miss out on that. EU membership is far more important and Greece (and Cyprus) have veto powers there too. So, why stir things up by naming the airport “Alexander the Great?” Couldn’t someone in the Macedonian leadership foresee these issues and dealt with them earlier? Missing out on NATO membership this year does not remove the Greek veto next time around, leading to a more “humiliating” public defeat at a later stage. If they had agreed on a name a few years ago it would have been an “agreement”, anything post-NATO summit in Bucharest will be a retreat (read “defeat”).
The real problem is that this dispute does not only affect the ethnic Macedonians, but also Albanians, Turks, Roma and others that live in Macedonia.
So, yeah, to whoever designed those posters: well done, you’re a true Macedonian patriot. Stay true to the regional tradition and hurt yourself a lot as long as you hurt others a little bit too!
April 2nd, 2008 at 1:11 am
This is one of those perfect Balkan storms….
There are already plenty of the usual Balkan conspiracy theories floating around, but you know? Sometimes stupidity is all….
April 2nd, 2008 at 7:57 am
First, the UN-accepted name(mutually accepted by both parties, but pleasant to none ) is FYROM. You want to do FYROM’s propaganda, please label it as such.
Second, where did you get this delusional idea that greeks have been treating Macedonians like dirt? There are real macedonians(in greece) and phony ones in FYROM(if fyromians are not going to recognize greek macedonians, then the name phony is appropriate). Even the prime minister of Greece is Macedonian! There is no fyromian minority in Greece, while there is a greek minority in FYROM. In the last elections, a coalition of ultraleftists and anarchists who perceive anything that is not harmful to the country is nationalistic, as they oppose the notion of a nation,
including a handful of people claiming to be Macedonian(with names showing an origing from South greece) got some 6000 votes, most of them in Athens. Greek macedonia is Just get it and get over it. The problem with the dispute is not history, though the FYROM propaganda that Alexander the great was not greek is pure bull(ask jews the victory over who do they celebrate in hannuka and they’ll tell you greeks, not macedonians, because ancient macedonians were just that),
but their claim that he was fyromian is simply delusional, as slavs appear in the region 1000 years later. The problem is that FYROM, which has maybe 30% of the geographical area of ancient macedonia claims all of it, including the over 50% by greece and the rest by Bulgaria.
It is as if one European country would rename itself republic of Europe, say they are the european nation and expect others to
recognize it. Or Mexico breaking up and one breakup republic wishing to go by the name of Republic of California. Or Stalin having renamed a part or all of Siberia “Soviet Socialist Republic of Alaska” and today this republic wishing to be recognized as Alaska. Or Argentina breakin up and one part wanting to go by the name “republc of the Falklands”.
This is exactly the kind of delusions we are talking about with FYROM: Thessaloniki is the 2nd largest greek city in greek macedonia. The people througout greek(real) macedonia are proud to be greek and macedonian, but they have no and want no relation with fyromians. It’s the same as Bavarians being proud to be both German and Bavaria, but should there be a former Swiss state of Bavaria, they would have no relation with them.
The problem with FYROM is that they do not recognize this, instead they talk about the macedonian nation, as if the greeks in real macedonia were not macedonian and print maps(that is the government, not private nationalists) showing all of macedonia(including the greek part ) under their flag.
Greece could agree to a name like “Northwest Macedonia” or Slavoalbanian Macedonia,
which would be even a concession, as the larger part of their country was never macedonia(Dardania, Vardaria etc were names used), but no, the other side is adamant.
So greece does not have any obligation to be friends with someone whose sole objective is to take over parts of Greece.
So, next time get your facts straight
April 2nd, 2008 at 8:57 am
Fidel, there are no Macedonians in That Country. There are only Former Yugoslav Macedonians. Honest. Pericles said so. (”In about 1500 years Slavs will settle those mountains Alexander will have left for sunnier climes and Indian takeout. They’ll fight a bunch and then make a small republic filled with Former Yugoslavs.” It’s in his less-known Afternoon Tea Oration.)
Seriously, though, there’s a United States of America and a United States of Mexico; there’s a Federal Republic of Germany and a Federal Republic of Austria; there’s two Congos. Why does the Greek government still gets its collective fustanella in a wad about what name to call the greater Skopje metropolitan area? Are they that eager to give us things to blog about?
April 2nd, 2008 at 9:07 am
Also, it all belongs to Kosovo anyway. See here for details.
April 2nd, 2008 at 10:57 am
A.Dimitriou Says: “There is no fyromian minority in Greece, while there is a greek minority in FYROM”
You just proved Doug right. There is no “Slavic Macedonians”, Albanians, Turks or Bulgarians in Greece, but there are Greeks in “Slavic Macedonia,” Albania, Turkey and Bulgaria - is that so?
Greece is simply not tolerant enough to allow anyone to have any other identity other then Greek regardless of their ethnic, racial or even religious background. Old Greeks gave democracy to the world, isn’t it time they start practicing it in their own home?
April 2nd, 2008 at 11:43 am
Fidel,
why do you present me as having said things I did not? Neither I, nor Greece would have a problem if there were a slavic minority.(However, people would be offended if anyone said they are part of a macedonian minority. So it 1/3 of the population and denying them their identity means they can sue and the courts will settle it). Anyone can say they are whatever they wish. I can say I am part of a Viking minority; but just because I say it does not mean people have to buy it.
But back to your question:
Greece and its neighbors have a history of population swaps. This means greeks in Bulgaria move to Greece and Bulgarians in Greece moved to Bulgaria, for example. This happened over 100 years ago and while by modern standards this
may look undesirable, it certainely was better than the ethnic cleansing that happened in Armenia, the Black sea and Asia Minor, for example. So this is the reason why there is no
Bulgarian minority in Greece and vice versa for example.
There are many Albanians in Greece, as there are Pakistanis, Indians, Kurds, Syrians and so on, but this is not a minority: Immigrants, either legal or illegal do NOT constitute a minority. I have lived and worked in a number of countries and never considered myself part of a “greek minority” there.
Regarding the turkish minority, there are treaties that talk about moslem minority in Greece and christian minority in Turkey, not Turks and Greeks. And, remember what has happened to the christian/greek community in Turkey in 55 and so on. Are you saying that because Greece did not do a cleansing, like Turkey did, they should be called intolerant? Are you really saying we should follow Turkey’s tolerant example and progrom the moslem/turkish minority????
And, let’s not forget Cyprus. The UK and the US is campaigning for instance for intellectual property rights(illegal mp3 downloads) which is petty theft, and calling those (immigrants) who have accepted the result of armed robbery with murder, Turkish-cypriots. Do we need a repeat of an invasion supposedly to protect a minority, especially given that the EU army is explicitly designed to go fight in far away places like Afghanistan, but not allowed to protect EU soil?
Look at how the US and the UK handle human rights(much more serious than name calling) when they think they interfere with security issues.
Greece, even though the security problems are much more serious, is not doing anything of the sort.
And to Doug: What is your interest in promoting another war in the area? Are you saying fyrom is not nationalistic in denying the greeks in macedonia the right to call themselves Macedonia
and printing maps of ALL of macedonia, tecahning their kids all sort of irredentist claims and greece is?????
What part of the republc of Europe argument did not you get or do you disagree with?
Particularly in conjunction with the irredentist claims by Fyrom(see the boing blog and the “truth” position!)
April 2nd, 2008 at 11:49 am
“There is no fyromian minority in Greece,”
Well, that’s just not true. There are tens of thousands of “Slavophone Greeks” in northern Greece. Nobody knows the exact number, because the Greek government hasn’t allowed them to identify themselves to census takers since 1951. But in 1951 there were at least 40,000 of them, and probably more. They haven’t gone anywhere.
It’s an interesting thing. The Greek government insists that there are almost no ethnic minorities in Greece. They acknowledge only a few — Turks, Jews, Armenians — all small. They vigorously deny the existence of others, even groups (like the Slav Macedonians) that have been there for hundreds of years. /And most Greeks accept this./
But yes, there is a Slav Macedonian minority; and yes, the Greeks have treated them badly since 1913. (Worse after 1948, since the Slavs tended to favor the Communist side in the civil war.)
The fact that most Greeks don’t know this and don’t want to hear it… well, it is a bit strange in a First World country that’s been in the EU for a generation. But there it is.
Doug M.
April 2nd, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Douglas Muir Says
“There are tens of thousands of “Slavophone Greeks” in northern Greece.”
I speak fluent english, french and german, but that does not make me any of these nationalities. My wife’s grandfather came over from Istanbul,
and he spoke fluent turkish, but that did not make him turkish. I knew Israelis who came to Israel from Arab countries and the were fluent in Arabic, but they did not consider themselves Arab. Since during the ottoman times (before 1913) there were also bulgarians there, people had to speak other language to communicate. But that does not say something on ethnic identity.
The hard fact is that in the latest elections the self-proclaimed “Macedonian party” took part under an umbrella of ultraleftwing/anarchist coalition and got some 6000 votes, most of them in Athens. For each of these 10s of thousand as you claim, or <6000 as the votes show of slav macedonians(now you use the term, before you used macedonian), there are many more greek macedonians. Don’t they also have the right to be called macedonian?
I’m not sure if you are saying population exchanges never happened. I’m sure back in 1913
people who supported the bulgarian comitadji
against the greek macedonian villages would not be welcome with open arms. Greece has no problem aknowledging Armenian or jewish minorities as you point out and although religiously different from what most greeks officially are(which does not say much, as religion is not taken that seriously), they are very well integrated and I have yet to hear a complaint from any.
Personally and also, I think the vast majority of greeks would have no problem accepting a slav minority, if there were one.
The problem would be if that slav minority would identify themselves as “Macedonians”, implying that the greek macedonians are not macedonian.
The same if true for FYROM. Just picking a name that will recognize that the greeks in for example Thessaloniki are Macedonian too, yet have nothingto do with them, would be acceptable(you still chose not to answer the republic of Europe argument). But so far FYROM is denying that and
is clear on having irredentist claims.
So, who is the nationalist here?
April 2nd, 2008 at 12:49 pm
Just for reference, I’m Doug (not Muir).
April 2nd, 2008 at 1:00 pm
sorry about that (it did match though Doug M)
April 2nd, 2008 at 6:14 pm
No worries. I try to sign in as above when I comment on his posts. Not that our positions differ on this set of questions.
April 2nd, 2008 at 6:23 pm
1) “Slavophone Greek” is your term, not theirs. These people call themselves Macedonians.
2) The “self proclaimed Macedonian party” was just that — a party that announced itself without any connection to the actual Slavs living in Greek Macedonia. So, not surprising it didn’t get many votes.
Again, there were 41,000 Slavs living up there in 1951. Did they all just go away?
3) “Greece has no problem accepting Armenian or Jewish minorities” — that’s true. And it’s true because those minorities are very small and not particularly difficult politically. Greece also accepts its small Turkish minority, because it’s required to be treaty.
But Greece is less accepting of its Slav, Romanian, Roma, and Albanian minorities. Also of its Greek Catholic minority — the Greek government got called before the European Court three times in the 1990s for actions against the Catholics, and John Paul II had to mention it more than once.
Again, the standard Greek reaction is to first deny that some of these minorities even exist. So.
4) “Population exchanges never happened” — I’m not sure where you get this from. Quite the opposite; the population exchanges are the reason Greeks are an overwhelming majority of the population in Greek Macedonia. Before 1913, they weren’t. It took the post-1923 exchange with Asia Minor, followed by the Holocaust, followed by two brisk bouts of ethnic cleansing (one in 1944, which got rid of the Albanians, and another in 1948, which pushed out most of the Slavs) to do that.
5) “The problem would be if that Slav minority would identify themselves as Macedonians”
Right, because people who have lived in Macedonia for centuries should call themselves, I don’t know, Swedes or something.
6) “FYROM is denying that and is clear on having irredentist claims.”
Actually, FYROM has amended its constitution (15 years ago!) and has formally rejected any irredentist claims. Repeatedly.
7) “So, who is the nationalist here?”
The guy who’s making stuff up? Just a guess.
Doug M.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:44 am
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Actually Slavophone is a term used by Rainbow and Helsinki and members of the minority.
You confuse the issue by writing: “these people all themselves Macedonian” since literally hundreds of thousands of Greeks self identify as “Macedonian” without any affinity (linguistic, historic or personal) with anything Slavic.
Some 40% of the Yugoslav “Macedonian” state identify themselves as Albanians anyway.
You also seem unaware that Greece’s de jure definition and social sense of minorities was externally defined and legitimized by treaty. Every country and social system has its own sense of what minorites are. This often confers special rights. certainly in the US legal minorities are accorded certain special preferential rights and this creates all kinds of tensions. Imagine throwing irredentism in a traditionally unstable and violent region on to of that.
April 3rd, 2008 at 8:29 am
“literally hundreds of thousands of Greeks self identify as “Macedonian” without any affinity (linguistic, historic or personal) with anything Slavic.”
So what? This has precisely nothing to do with what the country to the north of Greece whose capital is Skopje calls itself.
April 3rd, 2008 at 8:29 am
“and members of the minority.”
Um, no. They don’t call themselves “Slavophone Greeks”.
“You confuse the issue by writing: “these people all themselves Macedonian””
Well, no. They call themselves Macedonian. Whether you approve of that or not is a separate question.
“Some 40% of the Yugoslav “Macedonian” state identify themselves as Albanians anyway.”
That “40%” figure? That’s become another “stupid marker”.
The 2002 Macedonian census — surprise! They have censuses! — showed 25% Albanians. This was up from 21% in the 1991 census, which is no surprise, since Albanians have a high birth rate. By now it might be approaching 30%. But it’s definitely not 40%.
“Greece’s de jure definition and social sense of minorities was externally defined and legitimized by treaty.”
Again, no. There’s just one treaty — the one with Turkey — that does this. And it only applies to Greece’s Turkish and Muslim minorities.
Doug M.
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:03 am
Look, my background in this is this: my family came from a city in Greece that was occupied by the Bulgarians and where the Bulgarians killed half the Greeks and deported 100% of the Jews. I have not lived in the Balkans since is was five years old but I have long kept up with events there at an academic and serious level.
It is clear from your entry and your comments that you have a limited understanding of the Balkans, and I think, some kind of bias.
Bias? Yes. You challenge Athens’ census figures readily post those of Skopje. Your statement that using 40% for the Albanian minority is a “stupid marker”? Sorry, 25% is a “shallow fake Balkan expert” marker.
Oh and get some facts. “the is just one treaty.” LOL! Can I suggest you get another dilettante’s expertise? The treaty with Turkey was base on the Treaty with Bulgaria! Huge numbers of Greeks where ejected from Bulgaria on the basis of being non Slavic during the first and second Balkan wars and visa versa. After World War One but BEFORE Lausanne, these “transfers” were made de jure denaturalizations by TREATY. There are quite a few other TREATY’s dealing with transfers and minorities. You also have to understand the effect of (and tensions between) the post Balkan internal legal and external treaty obligation institutionalization of the millet system conferring of rights vs the tensions of modern views.
And as others have pointed out Slavophone is used by the Slavophic speakers themselves (many of whom have three Greek grandparents and know a handful of Slavic words) self appointed representative groups (e.g.Rainbow and Helsinki) and other third parties.
Something in the Balkan water? I don’t drink it and understand the Greek position. Do you think the United States government was “drinking the water” when it made a HUGE deal telling the Greeks from 1940’s through the 1970’s that the renaming of province by Tito (in 1944) was an attempt to grab part of Greece? Or is that simply another basic and elementary fact you don’t know?
April 3rd, 2008 at 12:10 pm
I’ve got a reasonable solution to all this. If the Greeks won’t compromise on the name issue, why not kick them out of NATO? Then they wouldn’t have a veto, and Macedonia can easily be admitted. If the Greek government objects, Turkey could be forced out too. This might even improve their relations in the long run.
April 3rd, 2008 at 12:57 pm
I think Doug Muir looks at things in a very ‘think tank’ analysis kind of way, sprinkled with a bit of I’m going to root for the underdog on this one.
I live in Greece and I personally know people who at least deep down inside feel an allegiance to FYROM and not Greece. I think that’s their right as long as they keep it inside. The moment it manifests itself in an open way, well, I think we are talking about treasonable acts.
How do Americans, Britons take to antidisestablishmentarianism when it happens close to home? Does Timothy McVay remind anyone of anything. How many Scotsmen would like to take the oil deposits that lie so close to home and make a go of it by themselves? More than a handful I suspect.
What I am trying to say is that If you live in Greece or feel Greek, even just a little, then ‘Macedonia’ is Greek. Allowing FYROM to use it is sac religious.
As I’ve said before, if anyone in Greece thinks that they are being oppressed they should just leave. I’m sure that is what Britain will tell any Scotsmen or Spaniard will tell any Basque or any American tell any Texan/Alaskan/Californian if they make a case for minority status.
The Balkans have the misfortune of having too many self identifying peoples living in too close proximity to each other. I personally believe the geography is to blame. In any case, I think there will always be problems here but lets hope that they stay among the words because I would hate to see things get out of hand which believe me could happen in an instant.
April 3rd, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Nice to see Nick in favor of ethnic cleansing for people who “feel they are being oppressed”. Do you think that was the right track for Greeks in Turkey in the 20th century, Nick? How about the vast, uncounted hordes that are the touted Greek minority in Albania? Should they just all go to Greece if they feel they are being oppressed?
The problem here is the conception of Greece as an ethnic state where citizens who are not culturally Greek are unwelcome. They are committing “treasonable acts” and somehow territorial claims become sacriligious. I wasn’t aware that Macedonia was a religious issue, particularly since Alexander the Great wasn’t a Christian, and Greece makes sure to list everyone’s religion on their identity cards. Since he wasn’t Orthodox, presumably he wouldn’t qualify as a true Greek.
April 3rd, 2008 at 1:27 pm
1) “Slavophone Greek” is your term, not theirs. These people call themselves Macedonians.
So do the greek Macedonians. Why should they give this up. And I can call myself Swedish, does that make me so?
2) The “self proclaimed Macedonian party” was just that — a party that announced itself without any connection to the actual Slavs living in Greek Macedonia. So, not surprising it didn’t get many votes.
You are joking, right? According to what you said they would be calling themselves “macedonians”, not slavs
Again, there were 41,000 Slavs living up there in 1951. Did they all just go away?
As I pointed out, Slav-speaking does not necessarily mean Slav. Plus assimilation. My father is from the north of greece, my mother from the south. What does this make me?
3) “Greece has no problem accepting Armenian or Jewish minorities” — that’s true. And it’s true because those minorities are very small and not particularly difficult politically. Greece also accepts its small Turkish minority, because it’s required to be treaty.
But Greece is less accepting of its Slav, Romanian, Roma, and Albanian minorities. Also of its Greek Catholic minority — the Greek government got called before the European Court three times in the 1990s for actions against the Catholics, and John Paul II had to mention it more than once.
One by one:
Slav- where is it?
Romanian- where is it?
Roma: Are you joking? They are everywhere and do not integrate. The only problems with them is when drugs are circulating in their settlements, some consider it discriminatory if the police enters to search for drugs.
Albanian: Again, legal or illegal immigrants are NOT a minority. In order to qualify as minority, you must be citizen. Can we clear this?
Again, the standard Greek reaction is to first deny that some of these minorities even exist. So.
Well, nobody is really asking you what minority you come from. If you take two boys, one greek, the other maybe from parents who emigrated from pakistan, the Philipinnes, FYROM(yes, there are) ,Albania or whatever, they have the same rights(school, medical treatment etc) except that the greek boy will have to do military service. So much for discrimination
4) “Population exchanges never happened” — I’m not sure where you get this from. Quite the opposite; the population exchanges are the reason Greeks are an overwhelming majority of the population in Greek Macedonia.
… and slavs in Bulgaria and FYROM
Before 1913, they weren’t.
So how come they won the fight against the comitadji back in 1897?
It took the post-1923 exchange with Asia Minor, followed by the Holocaust, followed by two brisk bouts of ethnic cleansing (one in 1944, which got rid of the Albanians,
are you talking about fighting nazi collaborators(Greece was still occupied in 1944, in case you missed it)? And are you talking about Macedonia or Epir?
and another in 1948, which pushed out most of the Slavs
you mean Bulgarians who were allied by the axis and had annexed Macedonia?
) to do that.
5) “The problem would be if that Slav minority would identify themselves as Macedonians”
Right, because people who have lived in Macedonia for centuries should call themselves, I don’t know, Swedes or something.
No, because they would imply that greeks who lived there even longer are not macedonian
6) “FYROM is denying that and is clear on having irredentist claims.”
Actually, FYROM has amended its constitution (15 years ago!) and has formally rejected any irredentist claims. Repeatedly.
In words. In practice their defence minitry publishes maps including greek Macedonia, their prime minister pays tribute to similar maps and they cannot accept that greek macedonians are macedonias, yet distinct from them. Just look at what they are bringing up ther people to think
-the posts in the internet, just see truth in the boing blog.
7) “So, who is the nationalist here?”
The guy who’s making stuff up? Just a guess.
You mean VMRO and those who make up a fake identity and deny that there is a greek macedonia with a population which is at least as much macedonian as they are and has nothing to do with them? We agree.
April 3rd, 2008 at 1:31 pm
BTW, I left out the European court. The same court who awarded a hefty sum of money to our ex-king
because his property(for which he had worked hard with his bare hands when he was not planning military coups or putting his hand in the state treasury for the dowry of his sister?) was taken
?
I should remind you that we had a catholic minister in the government (Elisabeth Papazoi , from Siros), so
if that is discrimination, discriminate me too!
April 3rd, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Yes Hektor Bim,
I do feel that way and if you tell me where it is that you live then I can compare it for you since unless the pickle is up your arse you can’t really feel the significance of it can you now.
And when I used the term sac religious
I meant that it has such importance to Greeks that we see it as sacred. Belittling something that someone finds important is wrong. Tell it the Danish when they get bombed by frenzied muslims for having their religion used as a means to have a laugh.
Why is it that Greeks all over the world can live harmoniously with others in other foreign lands and not cause problems but all of a sudden Greece has a minority problem. If you feel like you belong somewhere else then go there. But don’t expect the borders to change any time soon. That’s a line in the sand. You get my drift.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Do you know how many votes did the Rainbow party(slavophones in Greece) took during the 1996 elections?
1300 votes.
Is this the minority you are talking about. Ok I give 1.500 more.
I live for many years in Macedonia, north Greece and I saw or heard as many Slavophones as none.
Greece never said that its population is of 100% Greeks. Officialy its around 96%.
Population exchanges did happen and they cleaned the populations.
Every book of the early 1900 you open, you will not find not even once the word Macedonians as fyromians mean it. Even in Britanica you can find many things about The Balkan wars. There is no reference about the “Macedonians” It talks about Serbs, Greeks, Romanians and Bulgarians living in the region. It also talks about the population exchanges. You are the only who talk about ethic cleansing and minorities…
Is this accidental? No…
Keep on with your lives guys.
It s not Greece creating the problem.
It’s some posters, photographs and maps along with some propagandistic texts and books that do not talk only abvout a name…
The amount of slavophones reaches the increadible number of less than 0.2%
lol…
Greeks in Macedonia are more than 2.500.000. More than 95% of the population.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:09 pm
I’m still missing arguments for why, precisely, the government of Greece should have any say in what the republic whose capital is Skopje should call itself.
There was a claim of irredentism, which Doug Muir says was addressed 15 years ago. If there are actual, contemporary designs on Greek territory, we need to see some evidence.
There seems to be a claim that the use of the name Macedonia constitutes prima facie irredentism. I don’t think that holds water, any more than Mexico’s use of the term United States constitutes a claim to the territories Mexico lost in 1848.
Otherwise, it looks like Greece’s logic is “because we can,” which is not the smartest position for a smallish, medium-income country to be taking in international forums.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:42 pm
For the record Greece acted in good faith, took it on the chin and accepted a name with a geographical reference and still FYROM played hard ball. Who was saying ‘because we can’ Doug (not Muir)?
If you asked me FYROM lost a great chance to settle this because in the long run the name in practice will get withered down to Macedonia anyway. Just goes to show you how macho those in FYROM feel and how confident those who are backing them feel. In any case, they have proven that on the international scene they have much to learn about negotiating.
April 3rd, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Doug (not Muir) and Doug Muir: now it is my turn to be stupidly insulted!
OK, not really. But hey, I’m sensitive. Gimme some props, at least.
A.Dimitriou writes, “It is as if one European country would rename itself republic of Europe, say they are the european nation and expect others to recognize it.”
Hey, Dimitriou! Yeah, you! Didja know that there is in fact an American country that has named itself united states of America, says that its the American nation, and expects others to recognize it?
You might not know that people in the rest of this hemisphere over here call themselves Americanos and refer to the continent of América, but they do. And nobody gives a rat’s ass.
You’re not being very convincing, see, not to a resident of the American hemisphere.
Then you get worse! Check this out:
“Or Mexico breaking up and one breakup republic wishing to go by the name of Republic of California.”
Considering that Mexico has not one but two states calling themselves “Lower California,” this could happen. And you know how many Californians would care if the new republic dropped the “Lower” from the name? Like, three wingnuts.
And you know why? Because your fictional “republic of California” would pose no threat to the United States, especially if it, like, went so far as to amend its constitution to declare that it posed no threat.
Give me a fuckin’ break, Dimitriou. You’re emotions are very real, but your analogies disprove the point you’re trying to make.
(Props to Doug-not-Muir, of course, but you don’t even need to go to the “United States” analogy to show that Dimitriou’s analogies don’t hold up. His own use of “Europe” and “California” makes the point.)
Over to Nick Chrisopoulos. Nick, the vast majority of Mexican-Americans are Americans first and Mexican a distant second. But if you dig, you can certainly find a few wack-jobs who believe in established Aztlán or whatever.
Doesn’t bother me at all … except inasmuch as there are un-American types who might react to the existence of a fringe of Mexican nationalists in American the same way that you have reacted to the existence of a fringe of Macedonian nationalists in Greece.
To end, I refer y’all back to:
http://hdtd.typepad.com/hdtd/2008/03/sabidura-del-oc.html#comments
It all seems pretty silly from here.
April 3rd, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Wow. The grammar in the above post is seriously screwed up.
Seriously, English is my first language. Inasmuch as I /have/ a first language. Caray.
April 3rd, 2008 at 6:23 pm
Noel Maurer, you can’t compare 500 years of history (if talking just about the California area more like 300 years) with more than 2000 years of history. Ye the comparisons by Dimitriou where not too good.
Here’s one example that nobody mentioned yet and it happens to be exactely the same situation as the one discussed here.
Moldova is both a country and a large region of Romania. Language spoken in teh country Moldova is “moldovian” which is 99% romanian, 1 % slavic. 76% of population declared themselves “moldovian” therefore they have to speak the “moldovian” language which in fact is the romanian language spoken in the region of Moldova (from RO).
I don’t want to go any further altough I could fill pages here, but that is not my point. My point is this part of the world is the most fucked up and everybody can literaly claim a piece of everybody. We should just let things be and live our times and stop refferencing to the past which is very blurry. Nowadays with the EU extension there will be no more borders, there will be no more east and west europe, we (or better put our children) are all going to be one big brainwashed and we can’t do a thing about it (just as we couldn’t do a thing about it when our countries got chopped up after WWI and WWII)
PS: Please ignore american opinions on the Balkans, even if they claim they lived in our countries it is still almost impossible for them to understand anything that is going on arround them. they are already at the next level, waitting for us to get there.
April 3rd, 2008 at 8:35 pm
“Romanian- where is it?”
Dude. You have over 100,000 Romanian-speakers — you know, “Romanophone Greeks” — living up around the Pindus.
They’re not called “Romanians”, but they speak a language that Romanians can understand, and they’re not ethnic Greeks. And, oh yeah, they’ve been there forever — at least as far back as the Dark Ages.
(What are they called? I know… and you should, too; it’s your country. But you probably don’t, because Greek schools somehow fail to mention that these people exist.)
“Roma: Are you joking?”
If only!
“Albanian: Again, legal or illegal immigrants are NOT a minority.”
Oh no? Since when?
This deserves a post of its own, BTW. Greece has a large and growing body of Albanian immigrants — several hundred thousand of them, many legal, many not. The Greeks generally treat them very badly indeed. Once Albania joins the EU, the Greeks might not be able to do this any more.
Doug M.
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:22 pm
“Once Albania joins the EU”
In 2004, I confidently guesstimated that Albanians would be voting for MEPs in 2019. Just now, that’ looking a little optimistic. But it’s still my best guess.
http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-european-union/finalite
Didn’t Tom Wolfe do an essay on mau-mauing the Vlach catchers, back when he was funny?
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:39 pm
A question:
How come that more than 200000 people in so-called “Greece” Macedonia speak Macedonian that is spoken in Skopje?
Question Two:
Is this really about the name and the legacy of Alexander The Great, or about the properties that the Greece should return the Macedonians that were ethnically cleansed in 1944-48?
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:58 pm
About Vlachs:
http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/vlachs.html
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:37 pm
[...] a swastika” did “nothing but shoot Macedonia in the foot”; A Fistful of Euros examines “one of those perfect Balkan storms where you have obnoxious and stupid behavior that leads [...]
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:37 pm
[...] a swastika” did “nothing but shoot Macedonia in the foot”; A Fistful of Euros examines “one of those perfect Balkan storms where you have obnoxious and stupid behavior that leads [...]
April 4th, 2008 at 1:09 am
Fidel, Douglas, Dimitriou and others here who support Greece and history of Balkans.
First of all I want to ask you:
1. Who in Greece, has been calling Macedonian ?
Still we don’t have heard that Macedonian People are living in Greece.
2. Remember for the civil war in Greece, that you removed all ethnic real Macedonians from north part of greece, and waiting under their house’s windows, to wait if somebody talk on Macedonian to fight him ?
- That’s fact. But because Macedonian people has been quiet, you’ve done that perfectly and assimilate them, as well as to discriminate. Today they don’t have education on Macedonian language.
3. Tell me official Macedonian language is Greek ??????????
Dawm it, you are so stupid. How can Macedonians speak Greek ??? explain please… Macedonian talk Macedonian language, and Greeks, talk Greek.
4. Bulgarians, yes … they are vocalize ethnic Macedonian songs, with one aim: to Get this part of Macedonia with them.
5. Albanians: Albanians were terrorists in Macedonia, who were fighting with us, but why ?
To Get Big Albania…
6. Serbia … why serbia doesn’t respect Macedonian Church ? As I know, Greeks, Macedonians, Serbians, Bulgarians … all are cristian ortodox crowd … but !!! they do the most biggest vice of the world, what God has said: do not subjugate other people, be peaceful and live in peace. what Macedonia do that, never wanted something from nobody, never do somebody wrong or evil, and … evil still want to get the aim: Disapear Macedonia !!!
Macedonia will never desapear …
7. Greece, such a big country ! Why is affraid of Macedonia to get name Republic of Macedonia ???
- Because whole history was builded on Alexander the Great, or I will call him Alexander Macedonian, but what is so important about history ? … we just want to be what we are, and we are Macedonians. There isn’t Macedonians in Greece, because they speak Greek, not Macedonian language. That is against all indicators that Macedonia is Greek or whatever. You Greeks, are fighting against yourself. You want something what nobody can imagine. you want to change the world, you want one nation to die, … no will not… we were 500 years under Turks, but there were always Macedonians and will be. Macedonian people and race will never die, no matter how big is your wish …
and final:
Greece, thank you for everything, but you will always be loosers, and for your information (sad but true), MACEDONIA WILL LIVE FOREVER !
April 4th, 2008 at 8:40 am
Doug(not Muir) says:
“There was a claim of irredentism, which Doug Muir says was addressed 15 years ago. If there are actual, contemporary designs on Greek territory, we need to see some evidence.”
Take it from a pro-fyrom source(BBC):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7326017.stm
“And the Greeks feel insulted by recent images of their neighbour’s prime minister laying a wreath by a flag showing a map of Greater Macedonia, which includes parts of Northern Greece.”
Also: can you name one village or town in Pindus
where Romanian is spoken?
According to sensus
http://www.epirus.gov.gr/index_en.html
“According to the census of 2001 Epirus has a population of 353.820 inhabitants, which represents the 3,3% of the total population of Greece. The population density is 38-inhabitants/ square km, which corresponds to less than a half of the average population density in Greece.
Ioannina built by a lake, is the biggest city of the Region (61.629 inhabitants), its administrative center and a peripheral development, pole.
The towns Igoumenitsa (8.722 inhabitants), Preveza (16.321 inhabitants) and Arta (19.435 inhabitants), are the capitals of the corresponding prefectures.”
so, by your estimates, one out of 3 people in Epirus would speak Romanian, which would hardly make them invisible. If you mean Vlachs, why do not ask them what they think they are -even Dejan’s link(which is normally not to be taken seriously) says they consider themselves greek.
As for immigrants we have a different definition of what minority means. If I go and work in
a country without being a citizen, then I am not a minority. Armenians ,jews, roma etc are a minority in that they have all rights and obligations of every other greek citizen(such as voting and military service). Minorities participate in decision-making by means of voting and being eligible for all jobs; immigrants do not. Immigrants do not have the same right to vote or obligation to serve. I know of no country in the world where non-citizens vote. The vast majority of Albanians are doing quite well and have settled in greece- hardly a sign of bad treatment, as have some people from fyrom.
Dejan’s 200000 people speaking Macedonian is wrong: there are some 2500000 people (25%) of the population who CAN speak (in addition to official greek), macedonian dialect which is greek, and has NO relation to bulgarian (the fyrom language). But he is right, this is not about the legacy of Alexander, it is very clear that you have to be delusional to say he was fyromian. This is NOT about history, it is about
fyrom denying this 2500000 people the right to be macedonian(having nothing to do with them) and greek at the same time. These are the people living in greek Macedonia, Thessalonki for example who is the second major city in greece.
Nobody from FYROM had the guts to come out and admit that these people are no less macdonian than they claim to be, yet distinct from them.
Why? Has something to do with nationalism and irrdentism. We will not be able to even communicate until fyrom recognizes this fact because when they say macedonian they mean fyromian and we understand greek macedonians.
What Petar calls “facts” is as much “fact” as that Alexander was fyromian… But I must admit Tito did a great brainwashing job.
How come macedonians speak greek? The same way Cretans speak greek. They can also speak dialect, but they also speak the official language of their country, which is greek, of course(the language in which Macedonia itself has a meaning).
If you are not convinced about the republic of Europe example, just try it: have FYROM try to enter the EU as “Republic of Europe” and see whether people care or not.
As for the republic of Europe or California example, the exact analogy with the US is Stalin calling Siberia Soviet Socialist republic of Alaska. Tell me the US would accept that.
In any case I understand Greece would not be too concerned about a republic of Alaska as the US does not care about a republic of Macedonia, but
the point is we simply cannot accept that a small part of a region can claim the entire region. Petar and every post from fyrom I have seen denies that greek macedonians are macedonians. To recognize this would mean to deny the identity of 1/4 of our population. This is NOT going to happen. Greece has no territorial claims over fyrom or anyone else,
our wish is for them to do well, but whether it will survive or not is their problem, not ours.
They have much more serious internal problems than their hate and vitriolic propaganda against greece. Denying that 25% of the greek population is Macedonian, yet distinct from them is not a way to make good neighbors or friends. bringing up their new generation under the lies that they have somehow been wronged by greece and had part of their country stolen is also not going to make for good neighbors or friends.
April 4th, 2008 at 9:30 am
Dejan listen to Dimitriou how funny is he. He is telling us that Macedonian Language is - some Gree dialect wooooooooooooooooooow. ha ha ha … First of all, read about the languages in the world then talk. According to this Greeks ARE WORST than Hitler !!! (no matter you like that or not, you are). Dawm it, how you can say that this Macedonian Nation on Macedonian Teritory doesn’t exist ? Dimitriou how would you like tomorrow I will come to your home and tell you from tomorrow you will be callen: Alexander, or A.P.S. Dimitriou ???
Dimitriou, we don’t want something special, we want to call by our name, Republic of Macedonia. And don’t tell me that there is Macedonian people in Greece, because before 1991, you were speaking that there is no 1 Macedonian in Greece, and when Yugoslavia has parted … ups there are Macedonians in Greece. You are so contraticted yourself I don’t know why you are affraid of Macedonia. Just realease the veto, and breaked agreement in 1995 by greece, release the UN palliative aggrement and let us call by our name Republic of Macedonia, then will see Greece how good neibors we are. How this both countries will live …
But that will not happend and why ? Because Greeks want Macedonia to be out of this world, to disapear, because if Republic of Macedonia - we are, whole history about Alexander the Great - which is Macedonian - will fall in water
After lot of clever and wise people (Sokrat, Pitagora, etc etc etc…)what had Greece, now Greece it’s making one big mistake. Stealing the hitory of Macedonia. I believe that wise people didn’t want to steal, they want from you to be wise, not to steal. Everything what is stealen … you have to get back
April 4th, 2008 at 9:43 am
also stop with that FYROM, that is temporal name of Republic of Macedonia, because Greece wasn’t agree at all with it in 1991. Even then you were trying to block us. Greek politics 17 years is killing us because Alexander the Great - Macedonian or whatever. When Alexander the great was alive, greece wasn’t, there were city-states in greece, which Alexander acquire.
April 4th, 2008 at 11:27 am
You know there’s a province of Belgium called Luxembourg; and nobody cares.
April 4th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Petar and others, you need to find a common laguage with the greeks. Until you do, you will not be able to communicate and you will also get no support for NATO or ( I think more importantly) EU membership. Greeks are not disputing that you are a nation distinct from them or that you have a language distinct from them and they have no territorial claims. But to them “Macedonia” is their northern province. “Macedonians” to them are the people living there. They have been greek since antiquity and will continue calling themselves macedonian and be proud to be greek. They do not think you are macedonians, because after all your country has a small part of what was ancient macedonia and can claim no connection to antiquity, despite some ultranationalistic propaganda regrettably from your side. I understand that there was a war between greeks and slavs in macedonia and your country is not the only one with bitter memories: greeks have very bitter memories of attrocities by what the call the comitadji. But they want to look ahead, not 100 years back or more. France and Germany had much fresher bitter memories, but we look to the future, not to the past.
And, Greece has not tried to impose any name on you. They do not think you are Macedonians(they think this name if for the people in northern Greece -and yes, they do speak a greek dialect that is characteristic of the region and has nothing to do with slavic, I have lived in Thessaloniki for a number of years. ) and your propaganda has not helped good relations, such as your maps showing all of macedonian as yours,
or the fact that no politician in your country can make the statement that he understands that greeks in northern greece are also macedonian, but not what you call macedonian.
But greece’s position is very moderate: Find a compromise name that will accept that you are both macedonian, but not the same thing.
So we can be specific what we are talking about. Otherwise, you will have misunderstanings as above, for example to a greek, macedonian language is the language of macedonians, i.e. the inhabitants of northern greece. This is indeed just a greek dialect. To you it is the language in your country.
Imagine the following dialog: “What part of greece are you from?” -”Macedonia”. “So you speak macedonian?” “-Sure”, then one means greek the other means your language.
What greece is asking for is a very fair and reasonable compromise.
The first thing the interim agreement calls for is work to resolve the name issue. A position like “this is our name and resolving the issue means you accepting it” is not a position to resolve the issue.
Certainly many people in other countries do not care about the name, but they would have no problem if you had any other name; but you cannot blaim greeks for caring. After all if problems arise in their neighborhood, they will be affected. Luxemburg will not be affected.
So my advice is to get a solution accepting that you are both macedonian, but not the same macedonian, you have equal right to being where you are, and get along fine. Trust me, it is much better to have Greece as a neighbor than many other balkan countries. Just stop pretending that 1/4 of their population is not what it thinks it is, i.e. macedonian, but distinct from you.
April 4th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
There’s also a state in America called New Mexico, and nobody cares.
This thread has largely proved Doug’s original point.
April 4th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
A.D., I’d be interested in more details. There’s not really enough there to check what’s going on.
This later paragraph from the Beeb (same story) –
“[Greek foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis] says the government in Skopje regards the Greek province of Macedonia as occupied territory and has refused to remove such claims from textbooks speeches, maps and national documents.” — is just repeating what she claims. Again, I’d be interested in details.
April 4th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
“You know there’s a province of Belgium called Luxembourg; and nobody cares.”
Didn’t know that, which I suppose proves the point.
April 4th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Right, like the two Mexican states called California, and nobody cares.
Or the big American republic called America, and nobody cares.
Christ almighty. The stupid is truly amazing.
April 4th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Yes you are right, there is Area in USA (I want to tell Greeks this, and for everybody who didn’t know till now) called MACEDONIA, so who cares ????????
So Hans, you are telling if I am small to let them blackmail me ?
Nope Hans, I am proud Macedonian, I will be forever. And nobody will call me other name. Yes we speak Macedonian - slavian Macedonian or cyrilic Macedonian, but there isn’t Greek Macedonian language. Can you get that ???
I don’t care if You are from Germany, and you are saying that you are German or Deuthch (I think that is the same but imagine that as 2 names), and if you tell me: Petar, call me German; I will tell you ok … no problem … I can’t change your name, I can change my name, but not yours. I am not the right person to change your name. Only your God Father can change your name. And our GodFather is too old, maybe about 13 000 years … so we can not change something that is old about 13 000 years.
Also I want to tell you about anthic Macedonians. Near Bitola, there is Heraclea anthic city, where has founded money with face of Filip II, Alexander Macedonian, with Karan, what Greeks don’t know who is it. the King Karan was first Macedonian King 825 years b.c.
We do not want history (even it’s on our side), we want future. And if they respect us they can call us Macedonians and nothing else. BUT can’t they tell to UK to change their name ? they are not GodFather of UK, or USA, ?
Today Bakojani, has told UK and USA to change their names?
wtf is that ? uh… so Please people of the world, just Greece knows how the world should be called. Ask them for your name … ha ha ha …
And I want to tell you one more proof that Macedonia and Greeks are 2 different countries.
http://www.bible.org/assets/netbible/jp2.jpg
on this website you can see that there is Greece and Macedonia … watch out that url it’s Bible. So … please do not steal ours, and take that what you’ve found till now, and don’t ask more from us. Just leave us to call us by our name. There is in Bible that St.Jovan comes to Macedonia, and comes to Greece … that are 2 different things …
We don’t want anything yours Greeks, but leave us ours…
April 4th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
I’m beginning to regret that Admiral Codrington insisted on picking a fight with the Turks at Navarino Bay way back when. He didn’t have to; he exceeded his orders; he got in a lot of trouble with the Foreign Office.
April 4th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Doug Says:
“[Greek foreign minister Dora Bakoyannis] says the government in Skopje regards the Greek province of Macedonia as occupied territory and has refused to remove such claims from textbooks speeches, maps and national documents.” — is just repeating what she claims. Again, I’d be interested in details.
Listen Doug, what it’s done it’s done, they get 51% of the teritory of Macedonia in 1913 in Bucharesht agreement. Bulgaria got 37%. And if you know the bucharest agreement or if you have read it says: to have peace on the Balkan Peninsula, the Aliance will part Macedonia on three parts. The biggest to Greece, (which today they are calling Macedonia), East to Bulgaria, and only with that deal will have peace on the Balkan Peninsula. GREECE NEVER TOLD THAT !!! …
But, Greece don’t want to tell you that. Because only then you will know that their Macedonia, is our Macedonia. Because of that they are trying to block us not to call Macedonia !!!
Read more about that agreement on internet you will found out who is telling the truth and who lie.
The last post of this site http://p085.ezboard.com/fcoldbaconfrm44.showMessageRange?topicID=1.topic&start=61&stop=80 there is explanation about bucharest agreement.
And here most important think. Greek archeologists, telling the truth !
See this video. Their own archeologist, is telling that Greece and Macedonia has nothing common, and Greece it’s Greece, and Macedonia is Macedonia !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAYIDO5832Q&eurl=http://madeinmacedonia.blogspot.com/
April 4th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Apparently Atrios came to visit.
April 4th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
ha, when we are right, when we found proffs about the truth, … now stop with stupidness ?
NOPE… GREEK use Alexander the Great - Macedonian - to make SHADOW over MACEDONIAN HYSTORY !!!
April 5th, 2008 at 11:19 am
Talking about Mexico and the US, check this out!.
I wonder if no-longer-Swedish Absolut would dare to have campaigns like this in the Balkans
April 5th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
[...] Bush continues to make the case for Macedonia’s admission to NATO, even against the backdrop described by Doug Muir over the last week. Here he is in St Mark’s Square in Zagreb [...]
April 6th, 2008 at 6:24 am
There is not a serious person in the planet that will deny that “macedonians”, defined in a non-geographical sense, are part of a larger ethnic group defined as “greeks” (or “hellenes” as they call themselves, while perfectly accepting the term “greeks” used by everybody else).
It is an oversimplification to compare Macedonia with New Mexico or California, using thereby only a geographical connotation. Being “macedonian” is much more than a mere geographical term and one should compare it with being a “Sicilian”, a “Scot” a “Bavarian” or a “Kurd”.
It makes much more sense to think that some leaders of this new country proposed the name, not geographically any more, as it was when Yugoslavia split, but ethnically, trying to unite the different ethnicities and starting to forge a new identity.
While I personally have seen enough evidence of irredentism and expansionism, I tend to qualify these as extreme behaviors, causing, by reaction, similar (but a lot fewer) responses in Greece. Much more alarming is the fact that the name question becomes dangerously the major issue, distracting these people from other much serious questions they have to face.
April 6th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
“I’m sure that is what Britain will tell any Scotsmen or Spaniard will tell any Basque or any American tell any Texan/Alaskan/Californian if they make a case for minority status.”
I don’t have anything really to add to this discussion, except that I found the comparison to the UK and Scottish nationalism hilarious. Scotland has its own parliament, established 10 years ago by the British government, and its First Minister is someone who has advocated complete Scottish independence for decades, leading a party founded solely for that purpose. However much militant unionists might dislike all this, no-one is telling the Nationalists to leave their own country!
A more sensible comparison might be Northern Ireland. But really, the reason that’s a mess is because the Northern Irish themselves disagree about which country they belong to. Mainland British generally don’t care, and these days it isn’t a big issue in the Republic of Ireland either (which changed its constitution to drop its claim to the North, and in the referendum this change had 95% support). People do sometimes get a bit upset when Northern Ireland is called ‘Ulster’ by pro-British sources (the traditional province of Ulster is divided between Northern Ireland and part of the Republic), but not to the point of causing a political shitstorm in and of itself.
April 6th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Colin, you are missing the point completely.
This is not about a slav-macedonian minority living in Greece, nor a greek-macedonian group seeking independence. It is not a political issue either. Slav-macedonians, or whatever they will be called finally, are free to choose the political regime for their country.
Greeks feel their claim to the name macedonia in any sense other than geographical, is an unjustified claim of greek cultural and historical heritage. I’ll agree it is very difficult to find an analogy, as this is unprecedented.
April 9th, 2008 at 8:26 am
Petar, nobody is too small to have an opinion. But Greece is also not too small to act as a slave to the US. The only point is: You call yourself Macedonian, Greeks in Thessaloniki also call themselves Macedonian. Are you the same? No. Can you have the same name? According to the rules of logic, no. Yes there is an Athens, Georgia and a Paris, Texas, but this is not the same. Asking you to take a name that will distinguish you from the 2500000 greek Macedonians, so that we can all understand what you are talking about looks perfectly logical to me. I really do not understand why you have a problem with that and to me this justifies the greek claims that you deny that these 2500000 greeks in greek Macedonia are Macedonian -and they are no less Macedonian than you are.
There is a mixture of things the FYROM side is claiming(and by the way FYROM is the MUTUALLY agreed UN-accepted name, pleasant to none, but acceptable to both-at least that’s what both countries agreed to in the UN):
1) Ancient History. Philip, Alexander the great etc was Macedonian in the sense of fyrom and non-greek. This is plain stupid. First because Slavs do not appear in Macedonia before many centuries after Alexander the Great and second because
apart from the names and history records, the findings in Vergina, the fact that Alexander considered himself greek is also to be found in the history of other nations in the region. Jews for instance celebrate their victory over (Alexander’s descendants) as their victory over the Greeks, not the Macedonians.
It may be part of what Fidel was arguing very convincingly about inventing a history, with Mother Teresa etc. So falsifiying history will understandably not sit well with the greeks.
Use of ancient Macedonian symbols such as the 16-point star was thus seen a a clear theft of ancient greek cultural heritage, coming from a country with NO connection to ancient Macedonia.
So when Fyrom tries to advance and promote such theories abroad, this does not make for friendly relations.
2) Modern History:
With the arrival of Bulgarians in the region and after a lot of fights with the greeks(byzantines) populations were mixed all over the region. But it makes no sense to suggest that Macedonia was all slavs. There were many greeks there , and after the Balkan wars the population exchanges homogenized the region, both in Greece and in Bulgaria or South Serbia(the name for Fyrom then or Vardarska Banovina -a subsequent name)
3) Irredentism:
Fyrom removed official irredentist claims and has kept the low profile on the issue, but has never answered the hard questions:
-why were the irrendentist claims there in the first place?(such as the 91 constitution with a number of articles, such as 49 or schoolbooks with maps of Greater Macedonia printed in 1992) It is much harder to drop these claims in the popular feeling than in official documents.
If one makes an aggressive gesture and then under pressure says he means no harm, do you take this at face value?
-I think there was a reference in a previous post from BBC with FYROM’s PM in front of a map depicting “Greater Macedonia”
-there is probably a lot more
4) Personally, many people who are NOT affected may not care if a new country wants to call itself “Republic of Europe”, “Republic of California” and so one, but people who have an interest certainely have a right to care. Since I have discussed the issue with both greek and american friends(from California), all american s in the discussion said they would have a problem with a similar situation. Plus, my first reaction as a European with a “Republc of Europe” is that this woud be a crazy guy, why would I want to have anything to do with such an arrogant ***?
5) I do not see the greek position as strong-arming tactics. A strong arming tactic would at least adopt public opinion and say “we will not accept anything that includes the term Macedonia”. Greeks do not think the inhabitants or fyrom are Macedonians, yet the government offers a mixed name, like Upper Macedonia that will correctly recognize that there are people who call themselves Macedonian in both countries and no country has ALL of the geographical area.
On the contrary, the fyrom position looks extremely arrogant to me “we will accept nothing except Republic of Macedonia and you have to go along because papa-Bush is on our side.” Sorry, but this is not a realistic position.
Incidentally and funny enough, there was an interview by the guy who started all tis(The stupid, it burns) claiming that the swastika was used as a symbol of happiness…
April 9th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
So riddle me this: What give Athens the right to say what name its neighbors are known by?
April 10th, 2008 at 9:08 am
I’d put it this way: what gives anyone the right to claim a name (and it seems, if you read between the lines, the claims do not stop at the name) that is traditionally, historically, culturally, linguistically, ethnically and even geographically greek, since most macedonian territory is a greek province?
Given that, the greeks really do not care what their neighbours choose to be called.
April 10th, 2008 at 9:15 am
First, a correction:
Greece is not telling anyone what name they should go by; just what name they can NOT go by.
The first imposes one name; the second allows an infinite number of possibilities.
There are many reasons for this “right”:
First, logic and common sense. Two different things cannot have the same name.
This creates confusion and may well hide darker motives:
(On a lighter note, in some cases
even two identical things compositionwise cannot have the same name. For instance, only France can make
cognac. If Germany or England makes the exact same product, it would have to be called Brandy.)
When Siam changed its name to “Thailand” in 1939, it started printing schoolbooks showing
‘Greater Thailand’ as taking in China’s Southwest Provinces as far as Szechuan.
This territory was once part of ancient Thailand.(http://encarta.msn.com/sidebar_461501602/1939_Thailand_(Siam).html)
Second, prior art: After WWII, the allies denied Austria the name “German Republic of Austria”
Third, irredentism: In 1944 Tito renamed the province Vardarska Banovina “Macedonia”
and offered his assistance to greek partisans to drive the Axis forces off (greek)Macedonia,
which they wisely declined, even though they were allies as well as ideologically related.
Tito then started a propaganda that greek Macedonia is somehow occupied, which propaganda has outlived
Tito or Yugoslavia. Today the government of Fyrom cannot openly say that they seek to annex the
greek part, but this does not prevent them from:
-taking part(I mean the PM, which is as official as it gets) in ceremonies including monuments with maps
of “Greater Macedonia”
- having schoolbooks cultivating the idea of a greater Macedonia
-army maps of greater macedonia
-denying the right of some 2,5 mil greek Macedonians to be called Macedonians. I have never seen
anyone from fyrom, either official or any post aknowledge that right, as this would kill the idea of
a “macedonian” nation.
-promoting the idea that somehow they have been harmed and that “Aegean Macedonia” is occupied.
Just look at the posts
-following tactics that are reminescent of nazi Germany, that is building a national myth
as though they are descendants of Alexander the great, which is plain stupid(even Kiro Gligorof
said he did not subscribe to such nonsense), but more importantly building the national myth
not on who you are, but on who others are not. An example is the recent idiotic DNA “study”
finding that greeks come from “subsaharan Africa”, which bears at best a very strong resemblance
to nazi tactics with respect to non-arian race.
Luxemburg has none of the above with respect to Belgium.
All these are clear examples of “the stupid, it burns”
: You cannot hold a meaningful discussion by insulting the other party.
Finally, having lived in Greece, and knowing a lot of people there my impression is that
there are a lot of things that are wrong there, but these are not the things Greece is
usually blamed for. For instance claims of systematic police mistreatment of ethnic immigrants(I must say
I never considered myself a minority when in Greece) are no more founded than a similar claim based
on British police shooting an innocent Brazilian after the London bombings. I have seen Roma
settlements, I am amazed to find 6 year old children smoking there(I think this is criminal behavior
by their parents, not the state). I also think it is criminal behavior from the part of the parents to
send their kids begging instead of sending them to school, as this everely limits their
chances in life.
It is also true that some settlements have become a hotbed for drugs.
I do not think this would be acceptable to any EU government to have an area where the police
cannot enter to stop drug trafficing.
On the other hand I know of people with no minority background, i.e. as greek as it gets
whose human rights were violated, for instance even though they were the best candidate at the time
by far, they were denied a position because they had worked in the US on what was erroneously perceived as
military programs. But the issue of Macedonia is one where I think Greece is 100% right.
April 10th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
a typo: The Austria issue it should read WWI instead of WWII
“Between 1918 and 1919, Austria was officially known as the Republic of German Austria (Republik Deutschösterreich). Many territories it claimed under its control included regions that were later assigned to neighboring nations. Not only did the Entente powers forbid German Austria to unite with Germany, they also forbade the name; it was therefore changed to the Republic of Austria”
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria for instance).
This case was actually much worse, since it was not an interested party(germany) that forbid the name, but a third party.
April 10th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
There is some interesting information athttp://www.greece.org/themis/macedonia/historengl.htm.
With enough hindsight, the stupid thing was to choose the name Macedonia, to promote communist expansionist policy in the mid 20th century, in a manner typical of the times. The original reasons may now seem obsolete, but the propaganda has had its effect.
Petar, who most probably belongs to the indoctrinated generation, understandably feels affected. Others, however knowledgeable, but not immediately affected, are more likely than not to a have a shallow view on the matter. Still others, for their own reasons, choose position according to their particular interest of the moment, even if this means deliberately ignoring or falsifying facts.
Many greeks, like Alexander himself, are not interested in the origin or race of citizens. They only distinguish them on the basis of their virtue. It is hard to find virtue in these claims and positions.
April 14th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
[...] I know what could make this a great term of office! Start a new campaign: Tyrolia is only Italian! Because it’s worked so well for Greece… [...]
April 15th, 2008 at 6:47 am
But the nationalists in Skopje are saying that Macedonia is only theirs, even though they have a small part of it and have been there for a much shorter time than the greeks. Greece has been trying for 15 years to prove the obvious.
April 15th, 2008 at 7:58 am
Really Tim? There’s a campaign to forcibly rename the Greek province?
Wait’ll I tell the guys in Baja California Sur…
April 15th, 2008 at 10:02 am
I’m sure if Tyrolians in either Italy, Austria or Switzerland started a movement to claim the totality of Tyrol for themselves, they would immediately find supporters in the rest of the world.
Slowly, there will be plenty of “historical” justification of their cause, “documentation” about atrocities commited by the other side(s), minorities will appear in all three countries, after a few years or maybe a 2-3 generations, their descendands will self-identify as Tyrolians etc etc. Next, french speaking swiss will start to move towards the liberation of their brethren in occupied France, etc etc. French-bretons will claim Britain. American Indians will take over the US, Peru will have inca as their official language, and Greeks, to come to the bad guys, will start thinking of “liberating” Sicily, Marseilles and many other cities of the mediterranean, also re-claiming Persia, Afghanistan and probabaly Pakistan as well and, why not, put Egypt in the package as well. Meanwhile, sub-saharan africans –self-identifying as the “original” greeks — will wait grinning for the “ancient” world to destroy itself.
If you are into alternate truths, why not support such statements?
April 17th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Doug(not Muir),
come on! You really have not seen attempts by
Skopje to change history, e.g. portray the inhabitants of Macedonia from ancient times till today as distinct from greeks and that somehow
Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria somehow partitioned Macedonia as if the people who were living there
were not greeks and bulgarians(not to mention the turks) who wanted to reunite with their own countrymen , but something else?
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/26759.htm
http://faq.macedonia.org/history/concise.history.html
http://www.greekplanet.com.au/forum/index.php?s=524f0701df1033a9405bf794a4d4b2fd&showtopic=6812
Plus, you have NEVER seen maps referring to “occupied Macedonia”, e.g.
http://www.macedoniablogs.gr/2007/12/11/
You do not read even the posts in this blog, e.g.(Dejan)
“How come that more than 200000 (!!!!!)people in so-called “Greece” Macedonia speak Macedonian that is spoken in Skopje?[Not the so-called]
Question Two:
Is this really about the name and the legacy of Alexander The Great, or about the properties that the Greece should return the Macedonians that were ethnically cleansed in 1944-48?
(right, as if the greeks were not busy fighting a civil war at the time)
”
Unable to understand that over 50% of historical Macedonia is inhabited by greeks? Always has been.
I understand this sort of stupidity coming from people who were brainwashed for generations by Tito’s propaganda, but from people from the west?
April 18th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
I am a true Macedonian. I was born there, my family and indeed the entire village was there for a long as anyone can remember and they have always considered themselves nothing but greek. And they have not forgotten the treatment they have received for being greek.
So just a question:
Who the hell do you think you are, Douglas Muir, to tell me that greeks have been treating me like dirt? And what gives you the right to associate me with people that have nothing to do with me -or Macedonia for that matter?
April 21st, 2008 at 11:40 am
The history of the “Republic of Macedonia”:
The Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization was founded in 1893 in Ottoman Thessaloniki by a “small band of anti-Ottoman Bulgarian revolutionaries.
They considered Macedonia an indivisible territory and all of its inhabitants “Macedonians”, no matter their religion or ethnicity.
The organisation was a secret revolutionary society operating in the late 19th and early 20th centuries with the goal of uniting Macedonia with Bulgaria in a federated Slav State. They shortly after realized that ideal was too similar to San Stefano Bulgaria and changed course an strive for an autonomous, free and independent state.
According to Ivan Hadzhinikolov(one of the founders)
The five basic principles of the MRO’s foundation:
1.The revolutionary organization should be established within Macedonia and should act there, so that the Greeks and Serbs couldn’t label it as a tool of the Bulgarian government.
2.Its founders should be locals and living in Macedonia.
3.The political motto of the organization should be the autonomy of Macedonia.
4.The organization should be secret and independent, without any links with the governments of the liberated neighborly states, and
5.From the Macedonian emigration in Bulgaria and the Bulgarian society, only moral and material help for the struggle of the Macedonian revolutionaries should be required.
Dr. Hristo Tatarchev(another founder):
“We talked a long time about the goal of this organization and at last we fixed it on autonomy of Macedonia with the priority of the Bulgarian element. We couldn’t accept the position for “direct joining to Bulgaria” because we saw that it would meet big difficulties by reason of confrontation of the Great powers and the aspirations of the neighbouring small countries and Turkey. It passed through our thoughts that one autonomous Macedonia could easier unite with Bulgaria subsequently and if the worst comes to the worst, that it could play a role as a unificating link of a federation of Balkan people. The region of Adrianople, as far as I remember, didn’t take part in our program, and I think the idea to add it to the autonomous Macedonia came later.”
Although IMRO was predominantly ethnic Bulgarian since its establishment, it favoured the idea of an autonomous Macedonia and preferred to disassociate itself from official Bulgarian policy and was not under Bulgarian control. Its founding leaders believed that an autonomous movement was more likely to find favour with the Great Powers than one which was a tool of the Bulgarian government.
Can you now understand what you are? Can you know see that you are not one nation but a mixture of the local nations? Can you now see that you are Bulgarians, Greeks, Turks, Serbs and Albanians?
April 21st, 2008 at 2:30 pm
To form a nation, it takes more than decrees and political decision.
It takes more than clandestine organizations.
It takes more than self-identification.
It takes more than territorial occupation.
It takes more than the will and “help” of “friendly” powers (beware of “friendly” powers… people in fyrom surely must have the experience!).
It takes more than a hero-leader.
It takes more than all of the above together.
It takes more than a war (or many wars…).
“Finding” an enemy is not a good solution either. Nations are formed in peace time, not during conflicts.
You cannot form a nation by stealing somebody else’s history, culture or identity.
Greeks knew that, Romans knew that, Turks knew that.
People in fyrom (and elsewhere) just have to realize that Greeks are not out there to get them, but they’ll have to find/create their own identity + culture + history and respect their neighbors’.
It will take time, effort, unity, culture, education, goodwill, high ideals but less “big ideas”.
April 21st, 2008 at 8:06 pm
To help defuse the high tensions in this blog, I have come up with an interesting (as in not serious) proposal for the name dispute. I propose for Macedonia to adopt the following name:
REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA 2.0
I made the same proposal at the BBC News website on Mark Mardell’s Euroblog where almost a cyberwar has started.
The rationale behind this proposal:
1.
It contains a reference to ancient Macedonia — hooray I hear from Skopje!
2.
It contains a time reference, ie the 21st century — hooray I hear from Athens! They can keep the original Macedonia.
3.
It’s cool to be 2.0 because it implies confidence and improvement on the previous version. This means a country that will be more confident and better than the home of Alexander the Great. Wow! More confident than Alexander the Great — now, that’s something.
4.
Finally, Republic of Macedonia 2.0 is clearly different to the Greek Macedonia, but is also open to others. That is, you could be from “lower” Macedonia and still can be a Macedonian 2.0 — you could be from the east, west, north and south of ancient Macedonia and still be Macedonian 2.0 because this identity is not limited to a specific geographic region and thus not mutually exclusive.
5.
Now, does anyone have Nimetz phone number of email address. I need to get in touch with him because I have something important to say to him!
Respectfully yours,
Fidel
P.S. On the BBC’s website I also suggested that as a peace gesture YouTube move its headquarters to the country and the government as a gesture of good will offer 0% corporate tax for 100 years to all Web 2.0 companies that are established or move their headquarters to the country.
April 22nd, 2008 at 7:33 am
thank you dyia!
“…Bulgarian revolutionaries.
They considered Macedonia an indivisible territory and all of its inhabitants “Macedonians”, no matter their religion or ethnicity.
We couldn’t accept the position for “direct joining to Bulgaria” because we saw that it would meet big difficulties by reason of confrontation of the Great powers and the aspirations of the neighbouring small countries and Turkey. It passed through our thoughts that one autonomous Macedonia could easier unite with Bulgaria…”
meaning that this was a plot to take all of Macedonia for Bulgaria with or whithout the consent of its non-Bulgarian residents. Which is exactly what IMRO and the comitadji tried to do, but just did not work. And unfortunately, what some people still have on their minds.
So to dyia, the Macedonia residents are their brand of “Macedonian” whether they want it or not!
Fidel,
good suggestion. But do you really think your friends from Skopje will keep the 2.0 or just drop it, like they did the FY?
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:13 pm
I suggest the name Scopjan or Vardar Macedonia…
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Please d.i.y.a, you are nothing to suggest … Can I say that your child name, or your father name from tomorrow will be called Petar ?
shame on you !
We will be only Macedonia, or Republic of Macedonia, and your Macedonia you can change into Greek Macedonia (to get yours with the name, because was ours) …
And Please do not talk anymore what suggestions you will say… there is only 1 solutions: to look in future, not in history - and we have to be called Republic of Macedonia !!!
April 22nd, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Yes Petar look in the future if you dare and move on… What exactly is there in front of you?
Exactly you don’t know. Take a look in the past then and guess… That is why you need it…
April 22nd, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Just a gentle reminder that this is a moderated forum. We try to keep order with a light hand, but we will take firm action if it’s necessary.
I’ve just deleted one comment from this thread: calling other posters nasty names is a no-no. Play nice, please.
Doug M.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:52 pm
I have read all the post from this forum and found it interesting and exhausting maybe. I am glad that it has been moderated because it is a real cyber war out there about this name dispute.
The only thing I can add in here is that both sides have extreme statements which leads nowhere. I don’t want to sound biased but plenty of the so called facts from Greece are inacurate seen from a third party.
The Macedonians too (I dare to call them that way because they have been called so for over 60 years and nobody complained until just recently) have their extremists (some of them in the government) and looking back 2500 years back doesn’t do any good for them either.
I just hope there will be a mutual solution and all these confrontations will stop.
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:11 am
why you are calling me Petar the Vardar ? … Because you own know that Egey or (Egej I don’t know how is right on english or greek) you got from us ? because of that you are calling me Vardar ? What about Pirin ? or Bulgarian people you will call Pirin ?
As I told you, forgot history, it’s on our side … look: youtube videos, your greek archeologists, said that: long time ago Macedonia was kingdom, and Greece was democracy. why can’t you get that, we were always here and will be … why don’t you let me calling me by my name ? I know my name , you know yours …
unfortunately the elephant (Greece) it’s affraid of the mouse (Macedonia) as your primer minister said. We are small … but you are affraid of us whyyyyyyyyyyy ????? look healty, not with your cinizm, and non facts….. THERE ARE FACTS !!!
but you know why ???
Because you are power or you think that you are powerfull country, but !!!
I WILL TELL YOU 1 MORE THING !
IN THE BIBLE THERE IS COUNTRY MACEDONIA MENTION, AND NOT GREECE, IF YOU HAVE READ IT, YOU CRISTIAN … SOMEBODY HAS COME IN MACEDONIA, AND DIDN’T IN GREECE, WHAT ARE MENTIONED BOTH COUNTRIES IN THE BIBLE…
SO PLEASE STOP !!! ADMIT THAT WE ARE PEOPLE AND LEAVE US ALONE TO CALL BY OUR NAME, WHAT WE ARE CALLING THOUSNT OF YEARS, AND GET YOUR GREEK NAME, AND ONCE FOR ALL TO FINISH !!!
AND NEVER AGAIN CALL ME VARDAR !
I didn’t call you cyprus or turkey … I don’t want to abuse you so !!! don’t you !!!
First of all … read the bible
Second: ask any people of Athens, who don’t want Macedonian to be called Macedonia ??? from the polls, 80% of the people in Athens don’t care … and who are you few people to take care how to change our name ??? and why ??? YOU ARE NOT GOD !
leave us to live, and block everything what is greek for macedonia. You blocked Macedonian Airlines (Airplanes) to stop flying on the space of Greece. Is it that natural ??? put embargo for us … no problem, we will still survive… but unfortunately we WILL BE HERE FOREVER ! JUST TO REMIND YOU THAT YOU ARE NOT GOD, AND YOU CAN’T PLAY WITH PEOPLE AND CHANGING THEIR NAMES…
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:23 am
d.y.i.a and felix
your conclusion is this:
Can you now understand what you are? Can you know see that you are not one nation but a mixture of the local nations? Can you now see that you are Bulgarians, Greeks, Turks, Serbs and Albanians?
Shame on you !!!
You abuse me … we neved did !
You are telling what to do … we never did !
You are writing the history by your advantages … history can’t be written by somebody, it’s just like it is … the bible told that .
You are telling that macedonia doesn’t exist. .. look at the map in Vatican you’ll see .. do you both remember when was that ???
You are telling that we are no slovenian, macedonian, or I don’t know … we don’t tell you who you are …
so why just once leave us, and stay on our place … look into your country and don’t look into ours. you have enought problems to solve inside Greece, inside Bulgaria and don’t want to know about MAcedonia. And felix, you are Bulgarian ? You also talk like this, because you want to get rid of this peace of country Macedonia ? … you want to disapear ???
we will always live, no matter of your wish … we will always be here no matter of your pretensions … BECAUSE GOD WANT THAT !!! not you…
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:29 am
I think it’s time for the moderators of this thread to clean some garbage from here. Calling names an use of indecent language is not allowed in here. Some of you are posting all over the cyber places incredible insults. It is ubelievable how much hatred was developed in this dispute about the name. All of you better watch your language or you will be banned and your posts deleted. This applies especially for the comments of d.i.y.a.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:15 am
I’ve watched this video, and I ‘ve also watched these “archeologists” talking about Macedonia? Why is it eddited?
Why is the channel’s name and the subtitles erased? Is this a video played in your schools?
Why are some parts deleted?
Take a look to all other videos,from History channel etc, and you will see original videos…
Don’ t talk about God? Do you think that He is more intrested on you than other nations? God created man not nations.
Do you want to talk about the Bible? Then comment on everything not only the fact that he mentions Macedonia, or Greece or Israel, or Rome. Go tell God…” please God don’t forget us, you mentioned us in your Bible…” Anyway, 2012 is close… It would be intresting if you write a few things about 2012. Tell us what is going to happen then according to your Bible…
You are also confusing the region of Macedonia with your country. Yes there isn’ t a “Macedonia” as you mean it. There never was.
You are where you are. We didn’t ask you to live. We asked you to stop this falsification of the history. Not just Greek history but all the Balkan.
You insult both Greeks and Bulgarians with all these lies.
I’ m sorry Paul Brams for my comment. Douglas will delete it in a few hours…
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:03 am
Ok, I also do not see any reason for name calling, so let me bring up a different subject
that will divert the flames maybe:
For the record, I must say that there is no denying that Greece has been run dismaly for most of the post war
period, if not before. For the most part it is a country that does not take itself seriously, on a number of issue: It has a criminaly bad environmental policy(if you can call that a policy), a fat, expensive and inefficient judicial system, a nomenclature of incompetent or corrupt people in key positions , it is not serious enough about its own defence, and I can
list many more, including the fact that politics is such a good business that one can see the country run almost exclusively by dynasties: The Karamanlis dynasti, the Papandreou dynasty, the Mitsotakis/Bakoyani dynasty and so on.
Now to the flame part:
Having looked at many posts by Doug Muir, it is clear that he has a very poor understanding
of Greece and is quick to accept as truth things that range from half-truths to blatant lies.
He makes no secret about preferring Turkey, no doubt with its flawless history regarding
human rights, Albania or Skopje. The very thought of talking about nationalism in Greece looks to me as stupid
as comparing the allied bombing of Dresden to nazi attrocities during WWII. There is no comparison.
Greece has no “insulting greekness” law, it does have REAL security problems,
with often daily dogfights and casualties as a result on both sides(the alternative would be to
accept that turkish fighters can roam freely unchecked till Athens), it does have
a extremely free press(even free to report navy movements when the country was in the brink of war
with Turkey), and a huge amount of immigrants(why would they stay there and not move to a
less nationalistic place like the UK?) Want to talk nationalism? Look around: Turkey(Attaturk is the
greatest military leader, the greatest scientist, the greatest politician and so on), Albania,
Skopje, even the US
This is typical of anti-greek bias by british sources(another country with a flawless
human rights record). I somewhere saw in a fistful that the guardian reported that Oliver Stone’s
Alexander movie somehow heated things up? Why? what’s there to heat up? Is anyone seriously
questioning that Alexander was greek(except of course for the portayed as perfectly
non-nationalistic folks in Skopje?) Even clearer are comments that greeks “didn’t do much except
for giving Mussolini a red nose”. That was not true either(Greece lasted longer than France
and gave the germans hell with the partisans at a very big price. Much more in terms of
resistance and much less in terms of collaboration than Albania, Bulgaria
Turkey for example did during WWII).
Mr. Muir makes (correctly, but selectively) a big deal of the Bosnia war crimes, but has nothing
to say about Cyprus,as if no ethnic cleansing and massacres were commited by the turkish troops
there(come to think of it, he does have some things to say: that current politicians are
terrorists; the greeks deserve
what they got; they should grab the Anan plan with both hands, accept turkish occupation troops
on EU soil and grant Turkey the right to intervene militarily anytime it feels like, with their
own consent. I assume Mr. Denktash
was a dove all along; that Kossovo has a right a recede, but Cyprus never did, since this
did not please the mighty british empire. Or that greece has lost the moral high ground long ago(to whom?
The UK? Turkey? Albania? The US?).
Another example is the alleged cleansing of the Chams in 1944. It does not take more than common
sense to understand that this is a blatant lie:
But even if one were to believe in fairy tales, there is a consensus that when bad things happen
it is the government’s job to either prevent it, or else to punish those responsible. And guess what:
There was no greek government in 1944. Cleansing requires a plan and at the time there
was no government until very late 1944, and even as late as December 1944, it did not even have
control over Athens. The area he is talking about, as well as all of the countryside was under
the control of the partisans. No country can assume responsibility for events that happened while
it was occupied, so the whole story is incredibly stupid to start with.So if anyone should be
apologizing it would be the germans; after all Greece was under their jurisdiction when these
things supposedly happened.
Lots of bad things also happened at the
end of 1944 when while the rest of the allies were trying to defeat Hitler, british troops were
busy exterminating greek resistance fighters and collaborating with black market people and
nazi collaborators(over which britain umm, never apologized. Come to think of it, I have not seen
any apologies over those years of colonial rule, or more recently taking part in “shock and awe”
bombings of civilians, also referred to as “colateral damage”) . Doesn’t that qualify as ethnic
cleansing too?
Furthermore, although pro-british partisans under
Zervas were operating in the area for most of the time, by the end of the war, ELAS had defeated
Zervas and taken over.
ELAS partisans were aligned with Stalin and not especially nationalistic-
to the old communists there was no national enemy, just class enemy-. They did retaliate against
nazi collaborators, with no regard to their ethnic background. They did not make distinctions between
nazi collaborators. And, for an organization that prided themselves of “not even shooting a rabbit
from behind”, they never touched women and children. So this story is obviously false.
Equally stupid are claims of cleansing against slavs(which he labels macedonians, as though
greek macedonians were absent or were also cleansed): During a civil war there is no neutrality
Anyone with the winning side would be well-treated, anyone supporting the losing side
would suffer IRRESPECTIVE of background. Again ethnic cleansing requires a mastermind,
and it is just foolish to suggest that the civil war was fought over or was a pretext
for ethnic cleansing.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:40 am
I think I can agree with Felix’s view on the matter.
Most Greeks will also agree with him, even if they won’t easily admit it to foreigners or even between themselves (who said Greeks are famous for their cool head?).
What Felix describes in his first paragraph is, for decades, precisely what everyday news in Greece is about. The quasi-total inefficiency of the “state”, government and institutions. Then, there is celebrity gossip. Everyday life is also a lot like that. A trait similar to Italy: if it as much as it rains, Italians in the street complain “governo ladro”. Then, there is also celebrity gossip. But if you are Greek you have the right (and the duty) to do so. If you are not, then back-off, we need no lessons on democracy
You call this nationalism?
It is very difficult for someone to put aside his own background/preferences/culture etc and see things from an absolutely objective and unselfish point of view. I’m not immune either, so keeping this in mind and hating to generalize, I’d say that British have a fuzzier and distant view about Greece and/or the Balkans than others, let’s say French or Italians. If you must also add Cyprus to the british view mix, then also add a dash of imperialism (and do I discern a hint of revenge? bloody Cypriots didn’t like the british rule…) I would not go as far as to qualify this as anti-greek. To me it looks more like hidden envy for mediterranean laisser-aller
Facts? Facts are ok if you are doing math or physics, but in politics, history and economics, facts tend to be subordinate to the outcome. So the real question is not who is telling the truth, but who is bending it less. For example, in WWII, Germans killed lots of Greeks and Greeks killed lots of Germans. If you want a mathematical discussion you can put down numbers of dead soldiers, civilians, destroyed houses, successful sabotages and so forth. People don’t really care for math though, just read between the lines of the posts here, they are prepared to accept whatever they are served. Inevitably, some Greeks will continue to hate Germans for the rest of their lives and vice-versa. Nevertheless, shortly after the war, Greeks went to Germany as “gasterbeiter”, Germans came to Greece for the holidays and everything is fine after a glass of beer (or ouzo) in the sun. Want to fight?, Greeks will remind Germans they still haven’t paid war damages… Want to be nice? lets do business together and have another beer. The choice of the word “German” is intentional for this example. Some would prefer I’d used the term nazi, but this “political correctness” would only serve to obscure my point. Anyway, the bad feelings coming from such things were, as the should be, forgiven and forgotten. It’s a completely different story to forget or abandon your history and identity just to be nice to your neighbor… or because you expect economical, strategic, military or other benefits from him. Even, though in a lesser manner, allowing history and identity to be falsified or distorted, your own or somebody else’s, in the name of political stability, economic growth or other “high-goals” is a bit like watching a wrong committed, and say or do nothing to prevent it, because you believe there is some benefit in the outcome.
The behavior and feelings between Greeks and Germans, could equally exist between Greeks and people in FYROM (please find a suitable name…), Albanians, Turks or anybody else. When current issues will be resolved, any wrongs should be forgiven and forgotten after a generation or two. Greeks have already proved many times, they can do that.
To come back to the name issue, as long as the name was used internally in Yugoslavia, or in a geographical sense, Greece whether it liked it or not, had no reason or right to push for changes. But when you have a state claiming name, history, culture and (to put it nicely) having part of the population with visions of enlargement, now that’s another story. Greece cannot change her position on the name without losing her beliefs and principals (the ones emanating from her history and culture), and I think the rope is stretched as far as it can go. In fact, continued intransigence risks to have adverse effects. To make things clear, I’ll say once again, Greece does not want to tell anyone how to call themselves, but don’t expect her to sit back in this blatant falsification (or extreme bending of truth) and do nothing. You can say (in another post) that forbidding airplanes to land is childish. I agree. What would be the adult thing to do? Follow the US example and declare embargo? War maybe? Should we start with phrases like “If you are not with us, you are against us” etc.? When you have to deal with immaturity, do you use mature words to explain your point?
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:15 pm
There are not lies. 2012 ? … the World will end ? nope …
Because of that I told you that you are against the peace, against the everything just to prove that Greeks are only nation on this teritory from b.c. ? nope 
God never tell the future, just telling you to expect the future, and devil has in ahead assign the future.
what you think … doesn’t exist people eg. 3-4000-7000 years before on the earth ? and how count they that in 2012 will be end ? in the bible doesn’t write numbers … or years … so maybe you are reading some books from Jehovah, some people writen. also I think that in bible are writen some facts about jesus and etc, because I think that the god written just this:
I am the Lord thy god, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
Honor thy father and thy mother.
Thou shalt not murder.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbor.
Thou shalt not covet anything that belongs to thy neighbor.
And if you respect this, you will stop bothering whole the world trying to tell lie that we are not Macedonians … Imagine what will be with you … where will go your soul because you lie ???
According that you are trying to tell me that I am the lier, to whole here I am sending you the paragraph from bible:
“Acts 16:6
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
Paul’s Vision of the Man of Macedonia
“6Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia.”
“9During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.”
Acts 20:1
Acts 20
Through Macedonia and Greece
“1When the uproar had ended, Paul sent for the disciples and, after encouraging them, said good-by and set out for Macedonia.”
So please don’t go against the history you can’t change it. Macedonia was Macedonia will be forever and it’s ours. And your Macedonia please change it to Greek Macedonia. And then immidiately you will have peace, you will have everything what you need by us, and we also … we will live in peace and community … if you don’t please make us problems, and be the worst people in history who is the GodFather of the countries, and change all countries names. You CAN’T DO THAT, Can you get that ? want me to paint you ??? how to explain I don’t know … and PLEASE DON’T YOU EVER AGAIN CALLED ME VARDARIAN, BECAUSE YOU DON’T RESPECT ME, I DO. IF GREECE HAS DEMOCRASY IN B.C. WE HAVE NOW, AND YOUR CULTURAL LEVEL ON GENTLEMAN, CIVIL SOCIETY AND HEATH BRAIN, IS LOW . I WILL BE AGAIN GENTLEMAN, AND I WILL NOT ABUSE YOU LIKE YOU DID ! BECAUSE GOD SAY SO
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Good lord!
So if God had told Peter to go to Sicily would that prove it is not part of Italy?
You are just asking the greeks to respect your chosen name and tell them that they need to change their to greek macedonia? Like “Italian Sicilians”, “Greek Cretans”, “French marseilleise”
and “American NewYorkers” and “British Welsh”?
Really, what is your problem with agreeing
you are both macedonian(in the sense you live there), just that you are a slav, bulgarian or north-macedonian and they are greek or south-macedonian? It would be clear, it would be
true and would close the issue.
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:19 pm
well … I will finnaly put dot on this issue, and I want not to prove nobody nothing !!!
Anyway, we are nobody to decide who and how we will be our name, or Greek Macedonia will be Macedonia or something .. there are lot of big games who are lead the more powerful countries … and even we are callen Vardar Macedonia, or even if we are callen Freaks, we know that we are Macedonia. So … I have more intelegent job than proving you something. Anyway Buy to all,
was pleasure talking to you, and honestly … God didn’t told me .. just I am looking into future … I had and still have friend of Greece, who look into the stuffs really, and also he admited me that there was Macedonia and Greece, Macedonia to Macedonians, Greece to Greeks … but whatever … call me whatever you want … but call me by my name … don’t you FYROM me …
I will end my exhibit with this:
Love people to love you, hate people to hate you, do people what you want they to do to you !!!
Lot of Love from Petar, to all over the world and everybody who respect me as I am, not as I should be or was !
Call me Greek, call me Bulgarian, call me Albanian, call me turk, call me serbian, … but Love me and Respect me, so will I.
I think that you are cheating you by yourself (visual , I am Macedonian.
Bitola Babam Bitola !
Whoa-oa-oa! I feel good, I knew that I would, now
I feel good, I knew that I would, now
So good, so good, I got you !
April 23rd, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Correction: Lot of Love from Petar, to all over the world and everybody who respect me as I am, not as I should be or was !
Call me Greek, call me Bulgarian, call me Albanian, call me turk, call me serbian, … but Love me and Respect me, so will I.
I think that you are cheating you by yourself - I am Macedonian.
Bitola Babam Bitola !
Whoa-oa-oa! I feel good, I knew that I would, now
I feel good, I knew that I would, now
So good, so good, I got you !
April 24th, 2008 at 4:06 am
For Your Information,
Please don’t mix the population of the Yugoslav part of Macedonia with the Bulgarians. That would be at least a lack of knowledge.
One thing you should know that Hitler promised Macedonia (the San Stefano version) to the Bulgarians ruled by Tsar Boris. While collaborating with the Nazis they occupied the Yugoslav part of Macedonia and part of the Greek Macedonia too. The local population had to change their last names by the Bulgarian suffixes “OFF” instead of “ICH” which they already have done during the Yugoslav Tsar Aleksandar and later his son Petar rule in the previous Kingdom of Serbs, Croatians and Slovenians.
They had to go to schools taught by teachers brought from Bulgaria and the whole government clerk apparatus was brought from there too. Although the communists are now blamed for plenty of nasty things, they were allies with UK, France, USA etc during the WW-2. They, as partisans fought Nazi forces of the tripple axe from Germany, Bulgaria and Italy. So these partisans supported by the local population fought the Bulgarian Tsar soldiers until they withdrew from Macedonia and were replaced by German forces that stayed till the end of the war. As an irony Tsar Boris was poisoned by the Nazis for his “loyalty” toward the axe. The resistance existed in all the parts of this region, sooner or later. Unfortunately there was an idea by both Greek and Slavo-Macedonian partisans/communists after the war to convert Greece into a communist country which led to the civil war in 1947 and became a huge tragedy with consequences felt even nowadays. I believe this is the reason why Slavophone Greek citizens in Northern Greece never gained any public respect later on.
Anyway, have in your mind that there is no greater insult for the Yugoslav Macedonians to call them Bulgarians although they had some common development a few centuries ago. Even Bulgarian themselves don’t deny their Tatar’s roots. They were named by the Greeks as Vulgars (barbarians). They also widely accepted the Slavic culture, religion and alphabet, mixed with Slavic tribes and were more successful in establishing their own kingdom while the western Slavic tribes did not succeed in such process, divided in smaller feudal territories. These two ethnicities, the Bulgarians and the Yugoslav Macedonians had different developement that split long time ago and they have distinguished paths of life. I know that there are supporters in both parts of Macedonia, so called Bulgarofiles but that is a minor number. The conciseness and the written culture of the Slavic population in this region was kept and maintained by the Orthodox Church for centuries because there were no independent schools for the Slavo-Macedonians in their language during the 5 centuries slavery under the Turks and some 30 years under the Serbs until the end of the WW-2. The influence from the neighboring countries that had established their own states made them to go to Greek, Bulgarian or Serbian schools which planted different conciseness for certain number of the population that still call themselves Bulgarian, Serbs or even Greeks. The latest group are actually Rumanian nomad tribes also called Vlachos that lived in this region for quite long time (some of them populated parts of the current Albania). These Vlachos widely accepted the Greek conciseness, culture and alphabet. It’s also true that they were not always expressing their identity not because it was forbidden but because first of all most of them they blended with the Slavic population in mixed marriages or they simply were afraid of being mocked up by the society. While they used to be called Grkomans or Grkofiles before the war, nowadays they simply express they nationality as Vlachos when it comes to the national census in the Yugoslav part of Macedonia. They also have evening schools for their youngsters that want to keep their national identity, language and folklore which was hidden for a long time ago for a simple reason not to be condemned by the society.
So, the current population of the Yugoslav Macedonia is not pure Slavic but certainly not 50% Albanians as someone here wrote. The real number of the Albanian population currently is about 25% and its growing.
It really is a mixture of ethnicities as the population of most of the Balkan countries is. This region is a crossroad of the peoples’ migrations for millenniums and nobody can say we are a pure nation and screw everyone else.
I also understand that there shouldn’t be border changes in the 21st century and every citizen no matter the nationality has to be loyal to the government where resides, has to accept the language and local customs and there is no reason for irredentism as long as the basic human rights are maintained.
As for the name of the Yugoslav part of Macedonia I would leave that for the governments of both countries to decide and find a mutual solution.
Playing with someone’s ethnicity feelings is a very dangerous game that often led to wars.
April 29th, 2008 at 5:43 am
Paul,
interesting piece.
But what is the real origin then of Yugoslav Macedonians? Obviously to claim roots of ancient Macedonia is stupid, so they must have come from somewhere. Their language suggests Bulgarian origin. Is there any other theory?
April 29th, 2008 at 8:11 am
Hans,
You can read my post about the history of the “Republic of Macedonia” and you will understand some things…
They are not only Bulgarians. They are a mixture of the local populations. Mostly Bulgarians and Serbs.In few words mostly Slavs.
The truth is that their “heroes”, the founders of the IMRO (Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization,)were Bulgarian.
As I said “They considered Macedonia an indivisible territory and all of its inhabitants “Macedonians”, no matter their religion or ethnicity[...]Its founding leaders believed that an autonomous movement was more likely to find favour with the Great Powers than one which was a tool of the Bulgarian government.”
In few words, they “worked” for a free “Macedonia” in order to succeed the annexation of the region with Bulgaria.
They created this idea of an autonomous and free “Macedonia”. This is the reason they are heroes in both Bulgaria and Scopje… The former claim they were Bulgarians and the latter claim they were “Macedonians”. This is the case at least for one of the founders.
———
To Petar…
Since you want to call yourself a “Macedonian” I can call you anything I want. As for 2012 this is not my problem. It is you who say some things about this year. Tell us what you say about 2012…
You are not Macedonians the way you mean it. You are residents of the region but you are not ethnic Macedonians. There is no such thing. In the Balkans, there are only Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians, Greeks, bla bla… but there are no ethic Macedonians. If you want to “create” a nation then you have to create its own history too. Using the history of another nation, just because you live in the region that used to be ours, cannot be tolerated.
Mr Petar, in order to understand what is Greeks, who is Greek and what belongs to the Greeks, you have first to understand the word Greek. What is common to the Greeks? Why are they called Greeks? How did they come in the Balkans? Do you know these things? Have you ever read anything about the Greeks?
We know what God said. You should consider these things too.
———–
Some people cannot understand what is happening in the region. There are more than just a name. These people might understand if they read some of your books. Books used in your schools. Or if they take a look of the maps that your military academy uses. Maps of the year 2019 showing half of Greece as “Macedonian”…This could be a joke, but it isn’t. It is the truth!
April 29th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
For instance claims of systematic police mistreatment of ethnic immigrants(I must say
I never considered myself a minority when in Greece) are no more founded than a similar claim based
on British police shooting an innocent Brazilian after the London bombings. I have seen Roma
settlements, I am amazed to find 6 year old children smoking there(I think this is criminal behavior
by their parents, not the state).
This reminds me of the following:
Meanwhile, I suspect there is a very simple explanation for this:
No doubt it is; after all, there’s this province of Greece called Macedonia, right? I mean, what do you want them to call it on their maps?
April 30th, 2008 at 6:57 am
Alex wrote:
“No doubt it is; after all, there’s this province of Greece called Macedonia, right? I mean, what do you want them to call it on their maps?”
Are you joking? You didn’t understand me. Read it again. I mean that they have maps showing half of Greece being Scopjan. (and the other half turkish). The worse is that they believe these things. At least some of them.
May 2nd, 2008 at 5:58 am
I suspect Alex is pointing out that “nationalism is behavior by other countries or nationals(especially these Balkan people) that would be called patriotic if it were our country/nationals”. Certainly this is the case for the US(”Patriot act” anyone?
Keeping up the “stupid” thing, I see Mr.Gruevski pointing out that among other things “VMRO-DPMNE will stand for supporting minority and natonal rights of “Macedonians” who live in neighboring countries as well as the US, Australia and Canada.”
And also : “We will continue talks, but will not move an inch from our position”, i.e. no change in name and no qualification of “macedonian” nation. So what are they going to talk about?
June 30th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
A blog that truly lived up to its name! I can understand people in fyrom having been brainwashed to think that they are the descendants of Alexander, but here we have even more stupidity from westerners with a weird desire to represent others! I mean Noel Maurer -last time I checked he was neither the governor of California
nor an elected member of congress-! Three wingnuts are the nationalists in the US? Right,
renaming french fries “freedom fries” is not nationalistic, it’s patriotic. Burning Dixie Chick records, also patriotic. Is Cuba a threat to the US to justify an embargo? Only a wingnut would think so. Wait, that’s the government!
As for Doug(not Muir), who has appointed himself representative of “Macedonians” in Greece,
how stupid can you get? If there is such a minority, it is in their interest to distinguish themselves from greek macedonians-any greek macedonian can sue any such rep on the grounds that he cannot speak on behalf of macedonians, as greek macedonians are also macedonians and did not authorize any “minority member” to speak on their behalf.
Another incredibly stupid idea is that somwhow
Macedonia was empty of greeks(apparently “macedonians” had wiped all ancient greek macedonians out) before the Balkan wars. This was shot down by the comment on the fight with the comitadji, won by the greeks before the Balkan wars. Was it because the turks supported the greeks? Well, the greek hero of the Struggle for macedonia(pavlos melas) was killed by the turks, not the bulgarian comitadji he was fighting….
A well-justified title indeed!