[...]Greek journalist sued for writings on Bosnia | afoe | A Fistful of Euros | European Opinion[...]…

As for the mysterious “he”, I already said that this is not a question for you except that you tried to defend it by an untenable suggestion:
“Hasn’t it occurred to you that he may use the term for both groups”

“Not an inch”. Precisely. Greece has moved from its initial position to a new one” We still don’t understand why the hell you want the name of a region you have nothing to do with -just like Sicily or Scotland, but since you want it so badly, let’s say you are ALSO macedonian by adopting a qualifier. But no, FYROM is still in the early 20th century mentality and want all of it. Admitting that they are not the only macedonians is viewed as treason”

“So, can we also expect the Greek province to change it name to “South Macedonia” correspondingly”
Meaning the region holding the vast majority of Macedonia?

“Bugger along, you and your low national self-esteem”
Another great way to hold a discussion. Did you measure my national self-esteem?

When you are short of arguments, you either try to end the discussion by insulting your party, or change the subject. The crux of the matter is that FYROM has about as much relation to Macedonia, as it does to Scotland and you agreed that taking the name Scotland is unacceptable.

“Greeks should not be allowed on the intertubes.”

Yeah, that’s pretty obvious. I’ll cover this in one really short post.

______________

“Chris” commented:

“Can you find ONE example when he uses the term to refer to the more numerous and with a much stronger historical connection greek macedonians?”

… the mysterious “he” in the above quote refers to Douglas Muir. To give you a real short answer: frankly, I don’t give a fuck. Assuming that Doug would be writing an article specifically of the said Greek province of Macedonia and its population, I suppose that he’d do exactly that. But ask him, not me.

“Greece has moved from its initial position and accepts a compromise name, while FYROM has not moved an inch.”

“Not an inch”? That’s a load of bollocks.

“So share the name, but disambiguate by something like ‘North Macedonia’.”

Right on! So, can we also expect the Greek province to change it name to “South Macedonia” correspondingly?

Whatever. Bugger along, you and your low national self-esteem. Thankfully the rest of your countrymen aren’t like you. I suspect that you wouldn’t mind boycotting Finland, because this country dared to plagiarize the blue-cross flag, originally a patent Greek invention?

Cheers,

J. J.

Most of the region was known as “Paionia”, and it was an integral part of the ancient Kingdom of Macedonia.

”
Well, no. Only a small part of it is part of the historic region of Macedonia(unless you mean in Alexander’s time, when half the world all the way to India was a part of his kingdom). Look it up in ancient maps as in
ancienthistory.about.com/od/geography/ig/Maps-of-Ancient-Greece
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_(kingdom)
“Paionia or Paeonia was in ancient geography, the land of the Paeonians
, the exact boundaries of which, like the early history of its inhabitants,
are very obscure but they were in the region of Thrace. In the time of Classical Greece, Paionia
originally including the whole Axios River valley and the surrounding areas, in what is now the
northern part of the Greek region of Macedonia, most of the Republic of Macedonia, and a small
part of western Bulgaria.[1] It was located immediately north of ancient Macedon (roughly
corresponding to the modern Greek region of Macedonia) and south of Dardania (Europe)
(roughly corresponding to modern-day Kosovo). In the east were other Thracians and in the west the Illyrians.
In early times, the chief town and seat of the Paionian kings was Bylazora (now Veles in the Republic of Macedonia)
They joined with the Illyrians in resisting the northward expansion of the Macedonian state….”

Further, as far as I know every archaeological finding from ancient macedonia has been found in Greece, not in FYROM.

“and both the Slavs as well as the Greeks, as historic inhabitants of the territory, have an equal right to claim it? There’s no rational reason whatsoever why the name cannot be shared both by the Greek province as well as by the neighbouring independent republic.”
Although greeks may think they have more than equal right(been there much longer) as well as they have practically all of Macedonia except for very small regions, I would go along with the “equal”. So share the name, but disambiguate by something like “North Macedonia”. What the hell is wrong with that? It aknowledges the neighbor’s concerns, does not mistakenly try to potray them as the only Macedonians and settles a stupid row once and for all. At the same time Greece aknowledges that FYROM are Macedonians(of the North), so their macedonian identity is safe. Are South and North Koreans not Korean? Same way with the language.

To further give you an example of how stupid the theory that a country can name itself as it pleases without any control, suppose that Greece splits and its province Macedonia also becomes an independent state. Are you saying that a) they will be entitled to the name as they wish or b) they would need FYROM’s approval, so that the smaller and with much less relation to the region gets to dictate the name of the larger, more populous and with a stronger historical connection part?

“So, again: it doesn’t matter. Regions change and adapt their names all the time, both by the local inhabitants as well as by the outsiders; it’s a normal historical phenomenon, and doesn’t necessarily have any logic.”

Apparently it matters to greece and fyrom. You yourself seemed opposed to the idea of a Scotland, but the argument you gave was a logical(although incorrect) one, i.e. that FYROM is not even close to Scotland. So you do accept logic and this is why I support a sane name like North Macedonia, which acounts for both parties concerns. Right now it is FYROM which does not seem agree to a sane solution, and coupled to all the rest of the actions I mention above makes it very clear that their position is stupid and they are to be blamed for making a mess, raising the temperatures and creating a bad atmosphere for no reason.

“Hasn’t it occurred to you that he may use the term for both groups”
Can you find ONE example when he uses the term to refer to the more numerous and with a much stronger historical connection greek macedonians? Your example makes a distinction between the fYROM population -the vast majority of Macedonians are always left out, as if the term did not apply to them.

Samoa is a case of the aftermath of the colonial era with American Samoa semi-absorbed by the US.
‘it triggered immediate protests from American Samoa, claiming that the “exclusive use” of the word “Samoa” threatened to “undermine the identity” of American Samoa.
Sounds familiar, no? Yet somehow, they’ve managed without any further spat.’
So the greek reaction is not the first one. I should say Greece and FYROM also manage -they have trade, diplomatic relations and so on. So life can go on as it has for the past 18 years. It’s not like there will be a war tomorrow.

“Greco-Macedonian quarrel is _sui generis_ in its stubbornness and stupidity”
Greco-Macedonian? Since when is Greece quarreling with its province? Do you see
why this is misrepresenting the facts?

“And as noted, FYROM”
Ah, you meant the tiny part of Macedonia called FYROM all along. Why didn’t you say so?

” has been quite ready to compromise in every issue that really matters.”
Like? Inventing these theories of hailing from Alexander? Speaking about “macedonian minority in Greece”?(which is 2,5 million strong and does not wish to be associated with FYROM)?
Raising issues of “macedonian property” in Greece? Further infuriating greeks by the PM paying tribute to maps showing ALL of Macedonia?
Or just making a mockery out of the interim agreement which mentioned a temporary solution while the parties work to solve the name dispute? Greece has moved from its initial position and accepts a compromise name, while FYROM has not moved an inch. I see one side trying and the other saying “you will do as we wish because the great G.W. Bush will force you to”. Well, it has not worked thus far.

That’s sort of impressive. See earlier comment about dowsing rods.

Doug M.