i was passing by your internet page while i was reading as I am doing lately on several balcan issues. As a greek i have to state that I can’t really be that proud of many things mainly having to do with how the government should handle immigrant issues. Nevertheless I have also to state that as a child of immigrants myself (nikos will also recall the great emigration wave during the 60’s especially to germany) I am trying as much as possible to understand these people. With the history learnt in the alarmingly recent past, i don’t think that any person with sensitivity would go through all this trip again and again revising historical parts for his her own interest. It is true that the greek government has played a significant role in all this hysteria caused with the main victims albanian immigrants in my country. The mass media come second but not less responsible (don’t forget that following the west’s standards is a must-nevertheless there are some documentary shows on greek tv that i rank among the best in the world)…anyway just wishing to say apart from the Tsamides/Cam/Chams issue that i wish for the albanian immigrants one day to repatriate to their homes, start building up their lifes after endless working years, live and prepare a prosperus life for the next generations to come, and from time to time to show some kindness by not humiliating us so much in our soccer match meetings (I am really sorry for the facts that took place in the city centre that day). All of you don’t forget that even for Greece the transition to democracy and prosperity took some time, lots of years spent living in slums, lots of tears shed for loved ones leaving back, but sooner or later with necessary movements from greeks outside their coutry the goals gradually had been achieved. Does anyone know that a true by all means national health system in greece was introduced NOT before 83′? You are no different in this case, believe me, i know this from my parents who offered me more than a child could ever ask - the same thing you will do one day as i will for my own child (I am using singular because in greece having more than one child IS painful-financially i mean).

Take care people and be as open as possible to ideas and stimuli. regards

The northern neighbours had their own fears about assimilation and cultural survival to cope with, and the dynamic for that runs deeper than the machinations of the powers, or later, of the West. After all, Hoxha and Tito had very divergent views of the future of the region, n’est-ce-pas.

The powers were rather taken by surprise by the final expulsion of the Turks from the Balkans, but generally speaking, the Florence Protocol border was a reasonable reflection of ethnic realities, even if Austrian fears about Russian expansion played their part. Minorities were left on both sides, but that was rather inevitable.

I’d like to take this opportunity to ask Nikos on whom he blames the current state of Greek-Albanian relations. Is it all the Greek media that vilifies Albs, or just a section linked to particular political groups, and does the Church have a particular responsibility in this problem?

Britain and USA are largely responsible for greek irredentism and greek fascism. But of course they couldn’t allow democracy in Greece, they had a cold war to fight.

I can understand if you do not make a connection between the blond chams and the whole issue, in my view Greeks often refer to Albanians as turkalbanoi or chams as turkotsamides, however the fact that chams look more like northern european shows that chams apart from the relegion got nothing in common with turks or the middle east. To me most Chams look like a long lost northern european tribe.

Anyhow don’t consider the physical appearance discussion to be racist in any shape or form, as i am not in the slighest racist, but simply wanted to stress Chams european look-and-feel.

I personally do not know any Chams that go to mosque frequently or at all, but islam was the relgion that most adopted after 500 years of ottoman rule, most did to hold on to their land as it is recorded(dionisios skilosofos revolt involving mostly CHAMS against the ottomans, they lost and converted in order to hold on to the land)

Albania in EU would not be bad at all, but Albanians in Albania like Greeks in Greece wouldn’t give a shiat about Chams, even though Chams are ethnic Albanians, but that is a differet matter and it got very little to do with pro-axis, anti-axis discussins, etc, etc., when you lose your homeland, house, etc, then you are the mercy of the others, and i would be the first to see myself different from Albanians in Albania, however make no mistake i am an ETHNIC ALBANIAN!

I am sorry to hear that your grand parents had to go through probably the same scenario in Turkey.

As for me i am already in EU and an EU citizen, i have said fairwell to Albania a long time ago(was a kid back then) and don’t plan on ever going back, and as a teenager i am used and set on my European ways, so there you have it, however to me Chameria will always be the homeland of my parents and grandparents, they existed there for centuries, the land where my ancersots are burried.

I agree with people asking to visit their grandparents’ graves, but i don’t understand the connection between this and the trade thing or the blond chams you were talking about. I really can’t see what you mean there.

I don’t agree with people suggesting border changes, such as giving Chameria to Albania. Border change will come only by another bloodshed, something the region cannot afford.

Btw, don’t expect any apologies from our backward politicians. Anyway, why do you need one? Will you really be morally satisfied if someone that tells lies all the time says he is sorry for your looted village? I personally don’t care if some important hypocrite in Turkey apologizes for my grandparents’ lost home and property in 1922 (it’s never going to happen but anyway). You can’t feed on an apology pal.

What you really should be after is getting Albania in the EU. Then you will be free to cross the border as often as you like, and maybe even get the chance to buy back your lost property and settle in your ancestors’ homeland.

Anyway, i don’t advise you to come and live here. My country is by far the most fucked up place in the EU right now. You will be greatly disappointed.

The thing about Chams is that they got a raw deal, trapped in communist Albania for 50 years, unlike the greeks from Asia Minor, and the very physical proximity makes it somewhat different to the other peoples cases.

Today, you can travel in Greece from Albania but not if you are a Cham, i know the case of a Cham kid 11 years of age (from the border region in Albania) who crossed the border to Greece to buy medicine for his ill mother in the nearest Greek village on the greek side and was caught by the Greek border guards and he beaten extrmiley terated badly, taken to athents and your “fair” and “democratic” legal system sentenced him to 18 years in prison on the basis of been a Cham and some other silly and false allagetions, when you get tens of thousands of Albs crossing the border, why sacrifice the kid? He is free now thanks to my dad’s efforts through the European connections(my clan lives in western Europe more like northern Europe, both of my older brothers have businesses here), but so you know it’s about dignity my friend and timeless humiliation, so much a people can take man so much.

I don’t see the connection between the physical appearance discussion and your penis point, whatever you mean, but i mentioned the blonde looks of Chams as there is aalso that facet to the problem that most do not know, and there are others, for instance Cams are very good merchants, in Albania they known to be very good in commerce. In Tirana you got the Chams trading place and a lot of business are on their hands, something that greeks also seem to be able too.

Greece should make a public apology to Chams and give headway by allowing the elders to visit their birth places and their relatives graves in Chameria.

Albanian Cham got no other beef with Greeks, we have shared the region for centuries, and when i speak on behalf of chams here i also represent the small but unfortunate greek moslem chams(yes there were greek speaking or ethnic greek of moslem religion) who found exactly the same fate as the albanian chams at the hand of the greek zervists.

History all over the world, even as we speak, is being written with blood, and blood doesn’t always come from battles between armies lined up against each other, you know, fighting and dying romantically over a noble cause. It mostly comes from massive and brutal slaughter, name it genocide, ethnic cleansing or plain massacre. This was undisputedly the case with the Chams in Greece, as it was with Armenians and Greeks in Pontus and Eastern Tukey, Jews and Roma all over Europe, all kinds of indigenous people in America and Africa. History is written with the pain and tears of humiliated, tortured, harassed, raped, robbed, evicted, murdered civilians, most sadly children. So where, historically or geographically, do you draw the line between incidents that should be punished and others that should be forgotten?

Payback of previous “wrongs” has been the cause of many balkan conflicts. Right now, virtually each nation in the Balkans feels “wronged” by every other Balkan nation. Ethnic cleansing has been a common practice since the first 19th-century liberation movements. Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Albanians, Muslims, have all been victims of massacres.

Will we keep on digging through history, counting murders and rapes, comparing numbers and statistics? Or are we going to look forward, as Western european nations have already done? This is the real question, the only one that matters.

Unfortunately, taking a look at this list of comments proved a really pessimistic point: that nationalism, enmity, backwardness, racism, pseudo-religious doctrines combined with stupidity are inherent in these lands, and that the current illusion of stability is very likely to burst any time now. The public display of hatred reminds me of male teenagers comparing the size of their genitals, and sadly this is an impression you can get from a simple discussion with an average balkanian. The european prospect is really the only thing that keeps the savages (that’s us balkanians) from killing each other. One can only hope that as our societies advance, even with our slow balkanian pace, our education system and our media will stop pouring oil in the fire and maybe in many generations’ time, our distant grandchildren will overcome the loads of stupidity which has been concentrated through the ages.

I’m a Greek ashame for his country and his balkan identity, in case one wonders.

Sure i know that, simply repalce the Turkish with Greek and you get the same.

So they(greeks) say Suliots were Greek and Chams Turkoalbani, however greeks were smart enough to cleanse both Suliots and Chams from their teritory, how many Suliots remain in Suli today?? Not many, the same with Chams, so in the end whether you were orthodox albanian or moslem suliot or cham, you had no place in Epirus because it intefered with the pure Greek state concept.