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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Multiculturalism&#8221;? As if!</title>
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	<description>European Opinion</description>
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		<title>By: Indigo Jo Blogs</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/multiculturalism-as-if/comment-page-1/#comment-11737</link>
		<dc:creator>Indigo Jo Blogs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2005 14:54:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2065#comment-11737</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Boris Johnson wheels out the Sookhdevil&lt;/strong&gt;

On the way to an early job on Friday, I always look forward to what&#039;s going to be on the front of the political magazines, the New Statesman and the Spectator, associated with the left and right respectively. I&#039;d sort...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Boris Johnson wheels out the Sookhdevil</strong></p>
<p>On the way to an early job on Friday, I always look forward to what&#8217;s going to be on the front of the political magazines, the New Statesman and the Spectator, associated with the left and right respectively. I&#8217;d sort&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Joerg Wenck</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/multiculturalism-as-if/comment-page-1/#comment-11736</link>
		<dc:creator>Joerg Wenck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Nov 2005 23:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2065#comment-11736</guid>
		<description>I notice that both posters and commenters here employ mutually contradictory definitions of the term &quot;multicultural&quot;. Such confusion cannot possibly be conducive to a fruitful discussion. BTW, not only South Africans have been burning trains that weren´t arriving on time: Argentineans did it, too - without having a background of ethnic discord like South Africa has(due to a lack of comparable ethnic divisions, of course). 
I leave the construction of the rest of the argument as an exercise for the reader (though I have an inkling that Edward will resist to take it on, since he has already announced that Eric Cheney´s prescriptions seem &quot;sensitive&quot; - and I have to assume he thinks they´re sensible, too, since &quot;sensitivity&quot; alone obviously wouldn´t distinguish anyone´s response to the occurrences from that of his racist neighbour).
WRT the minimum wage , I´d like to be offered an explanation why employment in France is negatively impacted by its existence while employment in the U.S. isn´t (and why German unemployment is high although there is no minimum wage in Germany and the number of welfare recipients was reduced by more than 40% as a consequence of Hartz IV). Remember that Walmart´s CEO just suggested raising the minimum wage. I could conceive of a situation where a minimum wage in the private sector might not be necessary, but that´s very different from saying that abolishing the minimum wage would by itself contribute to solving the unemployment problem without also decreasing overall welfare outcomes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I notice that both posters and commenters here employ mutually contradictory definitions of the term &#8220;multicultural&#8221;. Such confusion cannot possibly be conducive to a fruitful discussion. BTW, not only South Africans have been burning trains that weren´t arriving on time: Argentineans did it, too &#8211; without having a background of ethnic discord like South Africa has(due to a lack of comparable ethnic divisions, of course).<br />
I leave the construction of the rest of the argument as an exercise for the reader (though I have an inkling that Edward will resist to take it on, since he has already announced that Eric Cheney´s prescriptions seem &#8220;sensitive&#8221; &#8211; and I have to assume he thinks they´re sensible, too, since &#8220;sensitivity&#8221; alone obviously wouldn´t distinguish anyone´s response to the occurrences from that of his racist neighbour).<br />
WRT the minimum wage , I´d like to be offered an explanation why employment in France is negatively impacted by its existence while employment in the U.S. isn´t (and why German unemployment is high although there is no minimum wage in Germany and the number of welfare recipients was reduced by more than 40% as a consequence of Hartz IV). Remember that Walmart´s CEO just suggested raising the minimum wage. I could conceive of a situation where a minimum wage in the private sector might not be necessary, but that´s very different from saying that abolishing the minimum wage would by itself contribute to solving the unemployment problem without also decreasing overall welfare outcomes.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott MacMillan</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/multiculturalism-as-if/comment-page-1/#comment-11735</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott MacMillan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Nov 2005 23:04:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2065#comment-11735</guid>
		<description>Haven&#039;t talked to much of anybody in Egypt about this, frankly. Not a hot topic of conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haven&#8217;t talked to much of anybody in Egypt about this, frankly. Not a hot topic of conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott MacMillan</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/multiculturalism-as-if/comment-page-1/#comment-11734</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott MacMillan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Nov 2005 23:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2065#comment-11734</guid>
		<description>Aspects of this discussion have definitely surprised me. One topic that would come up in our (American) high school classroom discussions was whether American society was really a &quot;melting pot&quot; or whether it was more like a fruit salad. 

The consensus was usually that it actually more like a fruit salad -- lots of great tastes that taste great together, mmmm, good. 

I&#039;m surprised I don&#039;t see anybody making the point that this could ever be possible in France. Many are in fact making the opposite point. 

To answer your question, Rupert, I suppose a multiculturalist attitude was not in fact a key component of the civil rights movement, but I think it sure helped. 

To suggest that blacks and whites have somehow blended into one homogenous American culture (or, even more naive, that there was never much difference to being with) suggests we didn&#039;t eat lunch in the same cafeteria.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aspects of this discussion have definitely surprised me. One topic that would come up in our (American) high school classroom discussions was whether American society was really a &#8220;melting pot&#8221; or whether it was more like a fruit salad. </p>
<p>The consensus was usually that it actually more like a fruit salad &#8212; lots of great tastes that taste great together, mmmm, good. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m surprised I don&#8217;t see anybody making the point that this could ever be possible in France. Many are in fact making the opposite point. </p>
<p>To answer your question, Rupert, I suppose a multiculturalist attitude was not in fact a key component of the civil rights movement, but I think it sure helped. </p>
<p>To suggest that blacks and whites have somehow blended into one homogenous American culture (or, even more naive, that there was never much difference to being with) suggests we didn&#8217;t eat lunch in the same cafeteria.</p>
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		<title>By: JLS</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/multiculturalism-as-if/comment-page-1/#comment-11733</link>
		<dc:creator>JLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Nov 2005 05:24:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2065#comment-11733</guid>
		<description>France of course is not multiculturalist.
It&#039;s exactly opposite.
the purpose of France is to create a society where people mixed I mean have children with French men and women, who don&#039;t want to stay apart.
Of course French language is very important.
&quot;In principle, accepting French culture means you&#039;re French. &quot;
As French I totally agree with that.
France is the opposite of an Ethnic nation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>France of course is not multiculturalist.<br />
It&#8217;s exactly opposite.<br />
the purpose of France is to create a society where people mixed I mean have children with French men and women, who don&#8217;t want to stay apart.<br />
Of course French language is very important.<br />
&#8220;In principle, accepting French culture means you&#8217;re French. &#8221;<br />
As French I totally agree with that.<br />
France is the opposite of an Ethnic nation.</p>
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		<title>By: Hans Suter</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/multiculturalism-as-if/comment-page-1/#comment-11732</link>
		<dc:creator>Hans Suter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 23:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2065#comment-11732</guid>
		<description>May I invite some comment on this:

While cars have been torched in France, in South Africa commuters fed up with delays in public transport have started burning trains. On Tuesday four train carriages were burned in Vereeniging to protest against delays that had apparently been caused by cable theft. Last night angry commuters in Soweto, also fed up with delays, burned four trains at three different stations. A total of 27 carriages were damaged. This will cost Metro Rail over R200 million. Commuters have warned Metro Rail that more coaches will be burnt if the delays aren&#039;t addressed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>May I invite some comment on this:</p>
<p>While cars have been torched in France, in South Africa commuters fed up with delays in public transport have started burning trains. On Tuesday four train carriages were burned in Vereeniging to protest against delays that had apparently been caused by cable theft. Last night angry commuters in Soweto, also fed up with delays, burned four trains at three different stations. A total of 27 carriages were damaged. This will cost Metro Rail over R200 million. Commuters have warned Metro Rail that more coaches will be burnt if the delays aren&#8217;t addressed.</p>
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		<title>By: Oskar</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/multiculturalism-as-if/comment-page-1/#comment-11731</link>
		<dc:creator>Oskar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:56:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2065#comment-11731</guid>
		<description>The comparison some like to make to the afroamerican population in the US is completely false. They are descendants of slaves who continued to suffer from de-facto state sanctioned racism. They have the same religion as &#039;white&#039; Americans and the same culture. 

Furthermore, the US is not an ethnically defined nation like west European states but an ideologically defined state. Loyalty to nation and &#039;American values&#039; are the conditions for inclusion and citizenship. Native american refusal to accept this contributed to their ethnic cleansing.

Examples of other &#039;ideological&#039; states are the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. Both were built around an ideology which transcended ethnicity. However, the ethnic groups still constituted the &#039;nations&#039;, often with specific group rights, ...or punishments.

This is why I believe that those who say that Europe should learn from the US when it comes to integration and immigration policy have got it wrong. West European states are &#039;nation&#039; states in that they are based on a shared language, culture and &#039;ethnicity&#039;. This is one reason why they have managed to build up welfare states, which assume a high level of group solidarity. Minorities within these nation states have always had problems. These have been solved either through assimilation or through some kind of minority rights.

This makes it difficult to include large muslim immigrant groups. For them to become accepted members of the &#039;nation&#039; it&#039;s not enough for them to simply &quot;pledge aliegence to the flag&quot; like in the US, but they also need to adopt the culture and, by extension, the religion (to the extent that the culture is based on the religion), of their new countries.

Funilly enough, Republican France is probably the country in Europe which most closely resembles the US in being an ideological nation. In principle, accepting French culture means you&#039;re French.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The comparison some like to make to the afroamerican population in the US is completely false. They are descendants of slaves who continued to suffer from de-facto state sanctioned racism. They have the same religion as &#8216;white&#8217; Americans and the same culture. </p>
<p>Furthermore, the US is not an ethnically defined nation like west European states but an ideologically defined state. Loyalty to nation and &#8216;American values&#8217; are the conditions for inclusion and citizenship. Native american refusal to accept this contributed to their ethnic cleansing.</p>
<p>Examples of other &#8216;ideological&#8217; states are the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. Both were built around an ideology which transcended ethnicity. However, the ethnic groups still constituted the &#8216;nations&#8217;, often with specific group rights, &#8230;or punishments.</p>
<p>This is why I believe that those who say that Europe should learn from the US when it comes to integration and immigration policy have got it wrong. West European states are &#8216;nation&#8217; states in that they are based on a shared language, culture and &#8216;ethnicity&#8217;. This is one reason why they have managed to build up welfare states, which assume a high level of group solidarity. Minorities within these nation states have always had problems. These have been solved either through assimilation or through some kind of minority rights.</p>
<p>This makes it difficult to include large muslim immigrant groups. For them to become accepted members of the &#8216;nation&#8217; it&#8217;s not enough for them to simply &#8220;pledge aliegence to the flag&#8221; like in the US, but they also need to adopt the culture and, by extension, the religion (to the extent that the culture is based on the religion), of their new countries.</p>
<p>Funilly enough, Republican France is probably the country in Europe which most closely resembles the US in being an ideological nation. In principle, accepting French culture means you&#8217;re French.</p>
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		<title>By: Oskar</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/multiculturalism-as-if/comment-page-1/#comment-11730</link>
		<dc:creator>Oskar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:21:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2065#comment-11730</guid>
		<description>I think the French riots will act as a catalyst in the European debate on immigration from Africa and the Middle East. I also think that the end result will be more or less the same in most countries:

1. increasing efforts at integrating the immigrants who are already in Europe, while also taking a harder stance on the need for Islam and Muslims to adapt to the societies they&#039;ve chosen to live in

2. increasing efforts at limiting new immigrants from Africa and the Middle East. Perhaps immigration policy will be more like they have in Canada or Australia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the French riots will act as a catalyst in the European debate on immigration from Africa and the Middle East. I also think that the end result will be more or less the same in most countries:</p>
<p>1. increasing efforts at integrating the immigrants who are already in Europe, while also taking a harder stance on the need for Islam and Muslims to adapt to the societies they&#8217;ve chosen to live in</p>
<p>2. increasing efforts at limiting new immigrants from Africa and the Middle East. Perhaps immigration policy will be more like they have in Canada or Australia.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/multiculturalism-as-if/comment-page-1/#comment-11729</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 19:16:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2065#comment-11729</guid>
		<description>The right word to be looking at is assimilation. Doug&#039;s comments about acceptance get pretty close to that.

That&#039;s part of it, but I wanted to get at something more, too: Explicit recognition that the receiving country is changed by the new arrivals and their descendants, and that this is a good thing. How did chicken tikka masala become Britain&#039;s national dish? How is it that salsa has outsold ketchup in the US for something like a decade now?

(I avoided the US/UK comparison because the classic Continental rejoinder is that those countries have long traditions of immigrations, whereas the Continental countries supposedly do not. Which is bunkum, as, for instance, a glance at German MPs from Wieczorek to De Maziere will quickly show.)

When I wrote that the protesting youths are every bit as French as M. Bové, I meant that quite directly. Not only have they absorbed much of the French culture around them, they have influenced it as well; what it means to be French (or German or Danish or Hungarian...) is a moving target. Acknowledging that -- in word and in deed -- is an important task for leaders of democratic countries. Perhaps it should be taught at ENA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The right word to be looking at is assimilation. Doug&#8217;s comments about acceptance get pretty close to that.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s part of it, but I wanted to get at something more, too: Explicit recognition that the receiving country is changed by the new arrivals and their descendants, and that this is a good thing. How did chicken tikka masala become Britain&#8217;s national dish? How is it that salsa has outsold ketchup in the US for something like a decade now?</p>
<p>(I avoided the US/UK comparison because the classic Continental rejoinder is that those countries have long traditions of immigrations, whereas the Continental countries supposedly do not. Which is bunkum, as, for instance, a glance at German MPs from Wieczorek to De Maziere will quickly show.)</p>
<p>When I wrote that the protesting youths are every bit as French as M. Bové, I meant that quite directly. Not only have they absorbed much of the French culture around them, they have influenced it as well; what it means to be French (or German or Danish or Hungarian&#8230;) is a moving target. Acknowledging that &#8212; in word and in deed &#8212; is an important task for leaders of democratic countries. Perhaps it should be taught at ENA.</p>
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		<title>By: Maynard Handley</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/multiculturalism-as-if/comment-page-1/#comment-11728</link>
		<dc:creator>Maynard Handley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:14:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2065#comment-11728</guid>
		<description>Stupid you! 
Multiculturalism means the *very presence* of &quot;them&quot;. 
The solution is to get rid of multiculturalism by shipping &quot;them&quot; all &quot;back to wherever they came from&quot; (which I guess means heaven or something if they were born in France/the US).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stupid you!<br />
Multiculturalism means the *very presence* of &#8220;them&#8221;.<br />
The solution is to get rid of multiculturalism by shipping &#8220;them&#8221; all &#8220;back to wherever they came from&#8221; (which I guess means heaven or something if they were born in France/the US).</p>
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