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	<title>Comments on: Kosovo 46, South Ossetia 2?</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/kosovo-46-south-ossetia-2/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 07:39:06 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Ahtisaari</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/kosovo-46-south-ossetia-2/comment-page-1/#comment-25703</link>
		<dc:creator>Ahtisaari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:46:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3573#comment-25703</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Ahtisaari...&lt;/strong&gt;

I wanted to write a post comparing Kosovo and South Ossetia but Dan Drezner has already written it.  [...]...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Ahtisaari&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>I wanted to write a post comparing Kosovo and South Ossetia but Dan Drezner has already written it.  [...]&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Muir</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/kosovo-46-south-ossetia-2/comment-page-1/#comment-25667</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Muir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:20:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3573#comment-25667</guid>
		<description>The first, I wouldn&#039;t call a mixed message so much as a confusion of identity.  Though Montenegrins don&#039;t see it that way, of course.

The second is simple pragmatism.  Looting and raping over the border is fine.  Looting and raping in your own country, less so.  And I wouldn&#039;t say Montenegro is &quot;welcoming&quot; of non-Serb minorities, exactly.  &quot;Tolerant&quot;, on a good day.


Doug M.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The first, I wouldn&#8217;t call a mixed message so much as a confusion of identity.  Though Montenegrins don&#8217;t see it that way, of course.</p>
<p>The second is simple pragmatism.  Looting and raping over the border is fine.  Looting and raping in your own country, less so.  And I wouldn&#8217;t say Montenegro is &#8220;welcoming&#8221; of non-Serb minorities, exactly.  &#8220;Tolerant&#8221;, on a good day.</p>
<p>Doug M.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/kosovo-46-south-ossetia-2/comment-page-1/#comment-25660</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jun 2009 22:16:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3573#comment-25660</guid>
		<description>&quot;(1) they are totally different from Serbs, with their own distinct and heroic history and a totally unique culture; but also (2) they are, of course, Serbs.&quot;

Also, in a previous post about Montenegro&#039;s secession, one of you talked about how some Montenegrins eagerly participated in Serb atrocities in Bosnia even as Montenegro itself is welcoming of non-Serb minorities and sought separation from Serbia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;(1) they are totally different from Serbs, with their own distinct and heroic history and a totally unique culture; but also (2) they are, of course, Serbs.&#8221;</p>
<p>Also, in a previous post about Montenegro&#8217;s secession, one of you talked about how some Montenegrins eagerly participated in Serb atrocities in Bosnia even as Montenegro itself is welcoming of non-Serb minorities and sought separation from Serbia.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Muir</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/kosovo-46-south-ossetia-2/comment-page-1/#comment-25638</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Muir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 07:46:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3573#comment-25638</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure what mixed messages you mean?


Doug M.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure what mixed messages you mean?</p>
<p>Doug M.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/kosovo-46-south-ossetia-2/comment-page-1/#comment-25637</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jun 2009 04:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3573#comment-25637</guid>
		<description>Question (if anyone reads this): Could the mixed messages from Montenegro be the result of one part of the country being pro-Serb and the other being anti-Serb?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Question (if anyone reads this): Could the mixed messages from Montenegro be the result of one part of the country being pro-Serb and the other being anti-Serb?</p>
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		<title>By: Alban</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/kosovo-46-south-ossetia-2/comment-page-1/#comment-22235</link>
		<dc:creator>Alban</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 08:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3573#comment-22235</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The point is that The United States is no longer the sole power who can chop up independent countries and create fiefdoms on stolen territory.&lt;/i&gt;

Stolen? You came from Russia (pretty late too) and claim it as your land!!! You got some nerve.

One cannot expect guerrilla fighters to go toe to toe against tanks. They had no choice but to disperse and use hit and run. I have to say that as NATO was bombing, tank warfare was being taught to the KLA, so things would have gotten heated. There is a video of a Serbian tank getting blown up in Presevo 2001 trouble.

 Let&#039;s face it: Serbia with a third world economy aand barely 7 million (very old) people, cannot keep 2 million people colonized. They still have not paid their regular soldiers (the paras got paid by looting and raping)

Will Kosovo unite with Albania in 20-30 or 50 years? Who knows. Montengro might join Serbia again too, and once the status is solved it&#039;s up to the two countires. There is safety in numbers, 2-3 million vs. 7-8 million will make a huge difference in Serbia&#039;s decision to attack or not to attack.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The point is that The United States is no longer the sole power who can chop up independent countries and create fiefdoms on stolen territory.</i></p>
<p>Stolen? You came from Russia (pretty late too) and claim it as your land!!! You got some nerve.</p>
<p>One cannot expect guerrilla fighters to go toe to toe against tanks. They had no choice but to disperse and use hit and run. I have to say that as NATO was bombing, tank warfare was being taught to the KLA, so things would have gotten heated. There is a video of a Serbian tank getting blown up in Presevo 2001 trouble.</p>
<p> Let&#8217;s face it: Serbia with a third world economy aand barely 7 million (very old) people, cannot keep 2 million people colonized. They still have not paid their regular soldiers (the paras got paid by looting and raping)</p>
<p>Will Kosovo unite with Albania in 20-30 or 50 years? Who knows. Montengro might join Serbia again too, and once the status is solved it&#8217;s up to the two countires. There is safety in numbers, 2-3 million vs. 7-8 million will make a huge difference in Serbia&#8217;s decision to attack or not to attack.</p>
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		<title>By: adaniel</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/kosovo-46-south-ossetia-2/comment-page-1/#comment-22198</link>
		<dc:creator>adaniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 22:22:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3573#comment-22198</guid>
		<description>The Kosovars have been involved in very heavy diplomacy to gain those recognitions. On the other hand, the South Ossatians do not seem to care too much about independence at all. &lt;a href=&quot;http://julienfrisch.blogspot.com/2008/09/south-ossetia-wants-to-join-russia.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Their president has just denied&lt;/a&gt; that he asked Russia to annex his statelet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Kosovars have been involved in very heavy diplomacy to gain those recognitions. On the other hand, the South Ossatians do not seem to care too much about independence at all. <a href="http://julienfrisch.blogspot.com/2008/09/south-ossetia-wants-to-join-russia.html" rel="nofollow">Their president has just denied</a> that he asked Russia to annex his statelet.</p>
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		<title>By: Global Voices на македонски &#187; Косово, Јужна Осетија: Резултати од признавањето</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/kosovo-46-south-ossetia-2/comment-page-1/#comment-22180</link>
		<dc:creator>Global Voices на македонски &#187; Косово, Јужна Осетија: Резултати од признавањето</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:03:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3573#comment-22180</guid>
		<description>[...] оф Еурос пишува за интернационалното признавање на Косово наспроти [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] оф Еурос пишува за интернационалното признавање на Косово наспроти [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Global Voices Online &#187; Kosovo, South Ossetia: Recognition Score</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/kosovo-46-south-ossetia-2/comment-page-1/#comment-22169</link>
		<dc:creator>Global Voices Online &#187; Kosovo, South Ossetia: Recognition Score</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 12:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3573#comment-22169</guid>
		<description>[...] Fistful of Euros writes about international recognition of Kosovo vs that of South Ossetia, and explains why it is likely [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Fistful of Euros writes about international recognition of Kosovo vs that of South Ossetia, and explains why it is likely [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/kosovo-46-south-ossetia-2/comment-page-1/#comment-22158</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 19:05:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3573#comment-22158</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure what the point of the discussion is. That  the US has more friends? Israel is routinely condemned in UN resolutions for essentially practicing self-defense. What would it mean if for instance all islamic countries plus a few more island states in the South Pacific would in block recognize S.Ossetia, so reversing the score 46 to 100 or something?
I doubt anyone would change his views depending on this.

I really  do not have any evidence about Kossovo uniting with Albania, one way or another. However, in negotiations there is a minimal and a maximum set of demands and if you cannot get the maximum, you get the most of what you can get. You do not have to go far in the Balkans. An example in the Balkans is  the VMORO/VMRO/IMRO, a Bulgarian organization in the start of last century  who in the words of their founders had the maximalist goal of grabbing Macedonia for Bulgaria and as a minimum goal getting an independent Macedonia which could unite with Bulgaria at a later stage. They did not openly say it would have to be cleansed of non-Bulgarians; they just practiced it(and failed, but this was another topic)

The point is that in international politics there is speakable and unspeakable. Kossovo uniting with Albania would be hard for the West to swallow;
Maybe it is not in the mind of Kossovo Albanians; but if it is, do you really expect them to say it openly?
If I were a Kossovo Albanian and I did favor reunion, I&#039;d say take the safe road, wait 50 years, make sure things subside  and then claim right of self-determination and so on. I&#039;m not saying this is what Kossovo Albanians want. I just don&#039;t read minds, only actions. Wim&#039;s concerns are quite justified.

Finally about the undecided countries:
Law  is what the weak needs against the strong.
So many of the weaker countries are understandably reluctant to recognize Kossovo: if they side with breaking the law, how will they invoke the law if they are the victims?
The counterargument is that Kossovo is a unique case:
 no one else in the planet has suffered that much. One can argue that S.Ossetians being bombed and killed was all they needed, but maybe I&#039;ll skip this  discussion and suggest another topic: There are basically two different concepts of law: The french concept is a detailed list of what you may not do(such as &quot;you may not use swearwords a,b,c on this blog&quot;-I know it is not that detailed, but it helps for contrast). The anglo-saxon concept is essentially &quot;You must not do anything bad&quot;. 
This has the advantage of flexibility, as new forms of &quot;bad&quot; behavior arise, but it gives enormous power to the judge or jury to define what bad is. The relevance here is that  the reasons given for Kossovo&#039;s independence are
 based on the anglo-saxon model, without even a valid jury(meaning UN-approved) I doubt any country would agree to subject itself to such an interpretation of  international law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure what the point of the discussion is. That  the US has more friends? Israel is routinely condemned in UN resolutions for essentially practicing self-defense. What would it mean if for instance all islamic countries plus a few more island states in the South Pacific would in block recognize S.Ossetia, so reversing the score 46 to 100 or something?<br />
I doubt anyone would change his views depending on this.</p>
<p>I really  do not have any evidence about Kossovo uniting with Albania, one way or another. However, in negotiations there is a minimal and a maximum set of demands and if you cannot get the maximum, you get the most of what you can get. You do not have to go far in the Balkans. An example in the Balkans is  the VMORO/VMRO/IMRO, a Bulgarian organization in the start of last century  who in the words of their founders had the maximalist goal of grabbing Macedonia for Bulgaria and as a minimum goal getting an independent Macedonia which could unite with Bulgaria at a later stage. They did not openly say it would have to be cleansed of non-Bulgarians; they just practiced it(and failed, but this was another topic)</p>
<p>The point is that in international politics there is speakable and unspeakable. Kossovo uniting with Albania would be hard for the West to swallow;<br />
Maybe it is not in the mind of Kossovo Albanians; but if it is, do you really expect them to say it openly?<br />
If I were a Kossovo Albanian and I did favor reunion, I&#8217;d say take the safe road, wait 50 years, make sure things subside  and then claim right of self-determination and so on. I&#8217;m not saying this is what Kossovo Albanians want. I just don&#8217;t read minds, only actions. Wim&#8217;s concerns are quite justified.</p>
<p>Finally about the undecided countries:<br />
Law  is what the weak needs against the strong.<br />
So many of the weaker countries are understandably reluctant to recognize Kossovo: if they side with breaking the law, how will they invoke the law if they are the victims?<br />
The counterargument is that Kossovo is a unique case:<br />
 no one else in the planet has suffered that much. One can argue that S.Ossetians being bombed and killed was all they needed, but maybe I&#8217;ll skip this  discussion and suggest another topic: There are basically two different concepts of law: The french concept is a detailed list of what you may not do(such as &#8220;you may not use swearwords a,b,c on this blog&#8221;-I know it is not that detailed, but it helps for contrast). The anglo-saxon concept is essentially &#8220;You must not do anything bad&#8221;.<br />
This has the advantage of flexibility, as new forms of &#8220;bad&#8221; behavior arise, but it gives enormous power to the judge or jury to define what bad is. The relevance here is that  the reasons given for Kossovo&#8217;s independence are<br />
 based on the anglo-saxon model, without even a valid jury(meaning UN-approved) I doubt any country would agree to subject itself to such an interpretation of  international law.</p>
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