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	<title>Comments on: Immigration: Europe&#8217;s Difficult and Perplexing Road to Reform</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/immigration-europes-difficult-and-perplexing-road-to-reform/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
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		<title>By: imran khan</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/immigration-europes-difficult-and-perplexing-road-to-reform/comment-page-1/#comment-911</link>
		<dc:creator>imran khan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:48:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=82#comment-911</guid>
		<description>dear sir / madam,

i&#039;m  mailing from pakistan i&#039;m 25year old single.

i would like to take immigration of any one country of europe.

kindly advise me the all process of immigration .

best regards 
imran
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dear sir / madam,</p>
<p>i&#8217;m  mailing from pakistan i&#8217;m 25year old single.</p>
<p>i would like to take immigration of any one country of europe.</p>
<p>kindly advise me the all process of immigration .</p>
<p>best regards<br />
imran</p>
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		<title>By: shane gan</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/immigration-europes-difficult-and-perplexing-road-to-reform/comment-page-1/#comment-910</link>
		<dc:creator>shane gan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:30:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=82#comment-910</guid>
		<description>I would like to know what is a qualifications to be UK citizen?please email me let me know them thanks a lot!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to know what is a qualifications to be UK citizen?please email me let me know them thanks a lot!</p>
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		<title>By: FransGroenendijk</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/immigration-europes-difficult-and-perplexing-road-to-reform/comment-page-1/#comment-909</link>
		<dc:creator>FransGroenendijk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=82#comment-909</guid>
		<description>Chris&#039; link is a nice one. Interesting to find for example that until recent the Inflow of foreign-born population into the Netherlands was bigger than the one in the US for example (but of course there is some (..) difference between the immigrants.
I think it should be a good idea for the fistful to collect (and review) reliable and relevant databases. 
On the environment I found for example http://earthtrends.wri.org/ of the world resources institute. Seems reliable. offers possibility of comparisons. (disadvantage: not all data are up-to-date). 


http://earthtrends.wri.org/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris&#8217; link is a nice one. Interesting to find for example that until recent the Inflow of foreign-born population into the Netherlands was bigger than the one in the US for example (but of course there is some (..) difference between the immigrants.<br />
I think it should be a good idea for the fistful to collect (and review) reliable and relevant databases.<br />
On the environment I found for example <a href="http://earthtrends.wri.org/" rel="nofollow">http://earthtrends.wri.org/</a> of the world resources institute. Seems reliable. offers possibility of comparisons. (disadvantage: not all data are up-to-date). </p>
<p><a href="http://earthtrends.wri.org/" rel="nofollow">http://earthtrends.wri.org/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Edward</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/immigration-europes-difficult-and-perplexing-road-to-reform/comment-page-1/#comment-908</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2003 11:28:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=82#comment-908</guid>
		<description>&quot;Back in 2000 they were lured into the U.S. with H1B visas and they are now the first ones to be kicked out of the country.&quot;

Yep, but this is now causing a very nasty kick back for the US.

I&#039;m still working on this and trying to sort it out, but the story goes a bit like this.

Is the &#039;brain drain&#039; good for you? Well yes and no.Obviously you lose talent. So this is bad. But the success of this talent encourages others. So this is good. To cut a long story short, from very small beginings (isn&#039;t this the whole complexity/chaos idea?) you can generate a very big process where everyone copies everyone else.

This seems to have happened in India, with even people from relatively small villages saving money to send their children to college to learn about IT. An enormous education and training industry developed.

Then comes the crunch. The Nasdaq crashes. No more H1B&#039;s. But there is a river of people as big as the Ganges training up ready to go. So what happens, the water in the river &#039;backs up&#039;, and gets diverted into tributaries locally. Then the &#039;boys on the bench&#039; start to arrive home with nothing to do and plenty of experience. 

So some intelligent entrepreneurs (Schumpeter had it sooooo right) step-in and start the ball rolling. The next thing you know, Silicon valley is dying.

Incredible thing globalisation, isn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Back in 2000 they were lured into the U.S. with H1B visas and they are now the first ones to be kicked out of the country.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yep, but this is now causing a very nasty kick back for the US.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still working on this and trying to sort it out, but the story goes a bit like this.</p>
<p>Is the &#8216;brain drain&#8217; good for you? Well yes and no.Obviously you lose talent. So this is bad. But the success of this talent encourages others. So this is good. To cut a long story short, from very small beginings (isn&#8217;t this the whole complexity/chaos idea?) you can generate a very big process where everyone copies everyone else.</p>
<p>This seems to have happened in India, with even people from relatively small villages saving money to send their children to college to learn about IT. An enormous education and training industry developed.</p>
<p>Then comes the crunch. The Nasdaq crashes. No more H1B&#8217;s. But there is a river of people as big as the Ganges training up ready to go. So what happens, the water in the river &#8216;backs up&#8217;, and gets diverted into tributaries locally. Then the &#8216;boys on the bench&#8217; start to arrive home with nothing to do and plenty of experience. </p>
<p>So some intelligent entrepreneurs (Schumpeter had it sooooo right) step-in and start the ball rolling. The next thing you know, Silicon valley is dying.</p>
<p>Incredible thing globalisation, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Scheible</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/immigration-europes-difficult-and-perplexing-road-to-reform/comment-page-1/#comment-907</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Scheible</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2003 01:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=82#comment-907</guid>
		<description>Personally, I think that LEGAL immigration to the U.S. is pretty much a road full of obstacles. This is why I cannot really agree with statements like &#039;the U.S. has progressive and positive immigration legislature compared to Europe.&#039; I just graduated from an American university with a B.Sc. in Business Administration and a GPA of 3.84. This grade point average puts me in the top 5% of the graduating class of my college. Yet, I do not have a chance to legally work in the U.S. A temporary work permit (H1B - specialized worker) would cost any potential employer several thousand USD in legal fees and a lengthy application process. If I were awarded this work permit, I would be bound to the employer who helped me arrange it. If my employer decided to sack me one day, my work permit would be void. 

Seriously, I do not want to be in the position of an Indian programmer in Silicon Valley today. Back in 2000 they were lured into the U.S. with H1B visas and they are now the first ones to be kicked out of the country. 

I think that when talking about immigration, a distinction between the high road of LEGAL immigration and illegal immigration is absolutely necessary. One cannot compare the cases of a highly trained professionals with low-skilled sweatshop workers from Mexico. Ironically, the legal system is exploitative for both: The foreign professional in the U.S. lives under the constant fear of his or her visa being revoked and the illegal immigrant fears being detected which deprives him from any social advancement. 

I know this view is probably perceived as pretty much negative. But if you think that I got an attitude against the U.S. in general, I can only say: (IRONY ON) Yeah, right, I studied at a U.S. college for three years living among American and foreign students only because I disdain the United States. (IRONY OFF)

Compared to the U.S. immigration dilemma, the temporary work permit and even the immigration legislature of Canada is cutting edge. Canada has a rating system to assess a visa applicant&#039;s potential. Points in this system are awarded for language skills, education, work experience, etc. If you have the necessary qualification, you are invited. Now that&#039;s a progressive immigration legislature tailored to the country&#039;s needs! 

Well, as for my personal perspective, I am really glad that I have EU citizenship and that the EU legislature promotes economic factor mobility within the union, including labor. Isn&#039;t it nice to think of yourself as being an economic factor? 

Chris Scheible</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I think that LEGAL immigration to the U.S. is pretty much a road full of obstacles. This is why I cannot really agree with statements like &#8216;the U.S. has progressive and positive immigration legislature compared to Europe.&#8217; I just graduated from an American university with a B.Sc. in Business Administration and a GPA of 3.84. This grade point average puts me in the top 5% of the graduating class of my college. Yet, I do not have a chance to legally work in the U.S. A temporary work permit (H1B &#8211; specialized worker) would cost any potential employer several thousand USD in legal fees and a lengthy application process. If I were awarded this work permit, I would be bound to the employer who helped me arrange it. If my employer decided to sack me one day, my work permit would be void. </p>
<p>Seriously, I do not want to be in the position of an Indian programmer in Silicon Valley today. Back in 2000 they were lured into the U.S. with H1B visas and they are now the first ones to be kicked out of the country. </p>
<p>I think that when talking about immigration, a distinction between the high road of LEGAL immigration and illegal immigration is absolutely necessary. One cannot compare the cases of a highly trained professionals with low-skilled sweatshop workers from Mexico. Ironically, the legal system is exploitative for both: The foreign professional in the U.S. lives under the constant fear of his or her visa being revoked and the illegal immigrant fears being detected which deprives him from any social advancement. </p>
<p>I know this view is probably perceived as pretty much negative. But if you think that I got an attitude against the U.S. in general, I can only say: (IRONY ON) Yeah, right, I studied at a U.S. college for three years living among American and foreign students only because I disdain the United States. (IRONY OFF)</p>
<p>Compared to the U.S. immigration dilemma, the temporary work permit and even the immigration legislature of Canada is cutting edge. Canada has a rating system to assess a visa applicant&#8217;s potential. Points in this system are awarded for language skills, education, work experience, etc. If you have the necessary qualification, you are invited. Now that&#8217;s a progressive immigration legislature tailored to the country&#8217;s needs! </p>
<p>Well, as for my personal perspective, I am really glad that I have EU citizenship and that the EU legislature promotes economic factor mobility within the union, including labor. Isn&#8217;t it nice to think of yourself as being an economic factor? </p>
<p>Chris Scheible</p>
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		<title>By: Antoni Jaume</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/immigration-europes-difficult-and-perplexing-road-to-reform/comment-page-1/#comment-906</link>
		<dc:creator>Antoni Jaume</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2003 23:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=82#comment-906</guid>
		<description>Mitch, not all immigrants are from states that allow for double citizenship. Giving them voting rights, specially at the local levels, help in devising the best way to accomodate them, avoiding ghettoization. 

DSW</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mitch, not all immigrants are from states that allow for double citizenship. Giving them voting rights, specially at the local levels, help in devising the best way to accomodate them, avoiding ghettoization. </p>
<p>DSW</p>
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		<title>By: Mitch H.</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/immigration-europes-difficult-and-perplexing-road-to-reform/comment-page-1/#comment-905</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitch H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2003 23:52:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=82#comment-905</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Edward.  It&#039;s better than I thought, worse than I could hope for.  &quot;Discretionary&quot; is not a word I ever want to see in conjunction with a bureaucracy, but it sounds like Italy isn&#039;t a pure racial-citizenship state.

As such, I have to wonder why in the world they&#039;d want to give non-naturalized immigrants voting rights, if there&#039;s a naturalization process.  Better to rationalize the naturalization process (IE, get rid of the &quot;discretionary&quot; language, standardize the period of residence, etc) than to invent some sort of half-citizen, half-resident chimera.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Edward.  It&#8217;s better than I thought, worse than I could hope for.  &#8220;Discretionary&#8221; is not a word I ever want to see in conjunction with a bureaucracy, but it sounds like Italy isn&#8217;t a pure racial-citizenship state.</p>
<p>As such, I have to wonder why in the world they&#8217;d want to give non-naturalized immigrants voting rights, if there&#8217;s a naturalization process.  Better to rationalize the naturalization process (IE, get rid of the &#8220;discretionary&#8221; language, standardize the period of residence, etc) than to invent some sort of half-citizen, half-resident chimera.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/immigration-europes-difficult-and-perplexing-road-to-reform/comment-page-1/#comment-904</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:02:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=82#comment-904</guid>
		<description>&quot;London, which has both ethnic minorities and refugees in abundance, used to be a place where the far-right enjoyed a toe-hold. Now the capital consistently displays the lowest levels of intolerance of any region in the country.&quot; - from: http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2121793

&quot;AN IRAQI yesterday spoke of his terror at being hunted &#039;like a fox and hounds&#039; through the streets of Hull by a gang of men in cars in an incident police are now treating as attempted murder. The 31-year-old told police he was chased before being hit from behind by one of the cars and thrown into the air &#039;like a rag doll&#039;. He fell into the path of a taxi, which stopped and helped him. But even as he lay injured cars stopped menacingly across the street to stop help arriving, their occupants shouting racial abuse at him before finally driving off.&quot; - from: http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticleMore2.aspx?SectionID=55&amp;ArticleID=568747&amp;Page=1&amp;ReturnUrl=NewsFrontMore.aspx

By official reports, half of all ethnic minorities in Britain live in London where together they comprise about 30% of the resident population. The Census profile for Hull reports the resident population as 97.7% white. But then London always was a melting pot since its foundation by the Romans after their invasion in 43 AD. We still celebrate that tradition of openness in a regular Xmas pantomime based on the true story of Dick Whittington from the fourteenth century: http://london.allinfo-about.com/features/dickwhit.htmlhttp://www.softdata.co.uk/gloucester/dick.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;London, which has both ethnic minorities and refugees in abundance, used to be a place where the far-right enjoyed a toe-hold. Now the capital consistently displays the lowest levels of intolerance of any region in the country.&#8221; &#8211; from: <a href="http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2121793" rel="nofollow">http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2121793</a></p>
<p>&#8220;AN IRAQI yesterday spoke of his terror at being hunted &#8216;like a fox and hounds&#8217; through the streets of Hull by a gang of men in cars in an incident police are now treating as attempted murder. The 31-year-old told police he was chased before being hit from behind by one of the cars and thrown into the air &#8216;like a rag doll&#8217;. He fell into the path of a taxi, which stopped and helped him. But even as he lay injured cars stopped menacingly across the street to stop help arriving, their occupants shouting racial abuse at him before finally driving off.&#8221; &#8211; from: <a href="http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticleMore2.aspx?SectionID=55&#038;ArticleID=568747&#038;Page=1&#038;ReturnUrl=NewsFrontMore.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticleMore2.aspx?SectionID=55&#038;ArticleID=568747&#038;Page=1&#038;ReturnUrl=NewsFrontMore.aspx</a></p>
<p>By official reports, half of all ethnic minorities in Britain live in London where together they comprise about 30% of the resident population. The Census profile for Hull reports the resident population as 97.7% white. But then London always was a melting pot since its foundation by the Romans after their invasion in 43 AD. We still celebrate that tradition of openness in a regular Xmas pantomime based on the true story of Dick Whittington from the fourteenth century: <a href="http://london.allinfo-about.com/features/dickwhit.htmlhttp://www.softdata.co.uk/gloucester/dick.htm" rel="nofollow">http://london.allinfo-about.com/features/dickwhit.htmlhttp://www.softdata.co.uk/gloucester/dick.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Edward</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/immigration-europes-difficult-and-perplexing-road-to-reform/comment-page-1/#comment-903</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:12:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=82#comment-903</guid>
		<description>Mitch,

This would be  for immigrants with six years of legal residence. The naturalisation situation is the following:

&quot;Naturalisation on the basis of residence is possible after ten years of regular residence in the country. This period is reduced to five years for refugees and stateless persons, four years for EU citizens and three years for descendants of persons born Italian citizens and for foreigners born in Italy. Further requirements stipulated in the law for obtaining naturalisation on the basis of residence include sufficient income and payment of tax duties. However, even when these criteria are met, the attribution of citizenship remains a discretional act of the Italian authorities. Although knowledge of the Italian language is not a requirement provided for by either the law or regulations, there are indications that it is taken into account in the exercise of this discretionary power. The procedure for naturalisation on the basis of residence lasts from one to two years.&quot;

This extract comes from an interesting document released by the Council of Europe, Commission Against Racism and Intolerance in April 2002.

http://www.coe.int/t/E/human_rights/ecri/1-ECRI/2-Country-by-country_approach/Italy/CBC2-Italy.asp

Part of the Executive summary reads as follows:

&quot;In the present report, ECRI recommends that the Italian authorities take action in a number of fields. These recommendations cover, inter alia: the urgent need to take measures to improve the situation of the Roma/Gypsy communities in Italy; the need to counter the exploitation of racism and xenophobia in politics; the need to fine-tune the legislation to combat racism and discrimination and to ensure a more effective implementation; the urgent need to adopt a comprehensive law on asylum; and the need to further strengthen the efforts towards mutual integration of majority and minority populations in Italy, including through ensuring that the existing opportunities in this respect are used in practice.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mitch,</p>
<p>This would be  for immigrants with six years of legal residence. The naturalisation situation is the following:</p>
<p>&#8220;Naturalisation on the basis of residence is possible after ten years of regular residence in the country. This period is reduced to five years for refugees and stateless persons, four years for EU citizens and three years for descendants of persons born Italian citizens and for foreigners born in Italy. Further requirements stipulated in the law for obtaining naturalisation on the basis of residence include sufficient income and payment of tax duties. However, even when these criteria are met, the attribution of citizenship remains a discretional act of the Italian authorities. Although knowledge of the Italian language is not a requirement provided for by either the law or regulations, there are indications that it is taken into account in the exercise of this discretionary power. The procedure for naturalisation on the basis of residence lasts from one to two years.&#8221;</p>
<p>This extract comes from an interesting document released by the Council of Europe, Commission Against Racism and Intolerance in April 2002.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.coe.int/t/E/human_rights/ecri/1-ECRI/2-Country-by-country_approach/Italy/CBC2-Italy.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.coe.int/t/E/human_rights/ecri/1-ECRI/2-Country-by-country_approach/Italy/CBC2-Italy.asp</a></p>
<p>Part of the Executive summary reads as follows:</p>
<p>&#8220;In the present report, ECRI recommends that the Italian authorities take action in a number of fields. These recommendations cover, inter alia: the urgent need to take measures to improve the situation of the Roma/Gypsy communities in Italy; the need to counter the exploitation of racism and xenophobia in politics; the need to fine-tune the legislation to combat racism and discrimination and to ensure a more effective implementation; the urgent need to adopt a comprehensive law on asylum; and the need to further strengthen the efforts towards mutual integration of majority and minority populations in Italy, including through ensuring that the existing opportunities in this respect are used in practice.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/immigration-europes-difficult-and-perplexing-road-to-reform/comment-page-1/#comment-902</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2003 04:34:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=82#comment-902</guid>
		<description>Florian - You know what they say about great minds thinking alike?

By a magnificant coincidence, the first leader article in this Saturday&#039;s The Economist has:

&quot;rigidities in labour and product markets in France and Germany, aggravated by high tax and social security contributions, have discouraged investment and the hiring of labour, keeping growth down and unemployment high.&quot; - from: http://www.fxstreet.com/nou/noticies/noticiadiagran.asp?bhjs=0

There is also this useful summary, produced by the British Treasury, of the relating OECD Jobs Study (1994): http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/201/PDF/Article02.pdf

And this paper reports on the national labour markets of the major Eurozone economies:
http://www2.fe.uc.pt/~ip99/ruehmann.pdf 

An illuminating EU Commission report on the functioning of Community product and capital markets is at: http://europa.eu.int/comm/internal_market/en/update/economicreform/docs/com-2002-743_en.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Florian &#8211; You know what they say about great minds thinking alike?</p>
<p>By a magnificant coincidence, the first leader article in this Saturday&#8217;s The Economist has:</p>
<p>&#8220;rigidities in labour and product markets in France and Germany, aggravated by high tax and social security contributions, have discouraged investment and the hiring of labour, keeping growth down and unemployment high.&#8221; &#8211; from: <a href="http://www.fxstreet.com/nou/noticies/noticiadiagran.asp?bhjs=0" rel="nofollow">http://www.fxstreet.com/nou/noticies/noticiadiagran.asp?bhjs=0</a></p>
<p>There is also this useful summary, produced by the British Treasury, of the relating OECD Jobs Study (1994): <a href="http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/201/PDF/Article02.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/201/PDF/Article02.pdf</a></p>
<p>And this paper reports on the national labour markets of the major Eurozone economies:<br />
<a href="http://www2.fe.uc.pt/~ip99/ruehmann.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www2.fe.uc.pt/~ip99/ruehmann.pdf</a> </p>
<p>An illuminating EU Commission report on the functioning of Community product and capital markets is at: <a href="http://europa.eu.int/comm/internal_market/en/update/economicreform/docs/com-2002-743_en.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://europa.eu.int/comm/internal_market/en/update/economicreform/docs/com-2002-743_en.pdf</a></p>
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