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	<title>Comments on: Belgium yet again in turmoil over killings</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/minorities-and-integration/belgium-yet-again-in-turmoil-over-killings/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 13:58:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: iloverights</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/minorities-and-integration/belgium-yet-again-in-turmoil-over-killings/#comment-14460</link>
		<dc:creator>iloverights</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 May 2006 04:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2532#comment-14460</guid>
		<description>The independant media in Belgium is controlled by the left-wing &#038; far-left. What to say more?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The independant media in Belgium is controlled by the left-wing &#038; far-left. What to say more?</p>
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		<title>By: A</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/minorities-and-integration/belgium-yet-again-in-turmoil-over-killings/#comment-14459</link>
		<dc:creator>A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 18:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2532#comment-14459</guid>
		<description>Well the only mistake the killer made was not having signed with the American or British Army. They offer contracts of variabale length and even free introductory lessons plus transport to the killing zone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well the only mistake the killer made was not having signed with the American or British Army. They offer contracts of variabale length and even free introductory lessons plus transport to the killing zone.</p>
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		<title>By: emma</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/minorities-and-integration/belgium-yet-again-in-turmoil-over-killings/#comment-14458</link>
		<dc:creator>emma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 11:10:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2532#comment-14458</guid>
		<description>Motive behind the killings is clear. Its not money,its racism. The problem lies within the society and its system and not with the victims. They r just made the scapegoats to show anger. 
What kind of punishment is lying for VB?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Motive behind the killings is clear. Its not money,its racism. The problem lies within the society and its system and not with the victims. They r just made the scapegoats to show anger.<br />
What kind of punishment is lying for VB?</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Martens</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/minorities-and-integration/belgium-yet-again-in-turmoil-over-killings/#comment-14457</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Martens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 04:17:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2532#comment-14457</guid>
		<description>No, the Vlaams Belang is not just about racism.  Sometimes it's about ethnocentrism and middle class paranoia.

I do understand fear of losing what you have.  I generally try to stand behind the people who have those kinds of fears, but my support is conditional, and among the conditions are recognizing that your neighbours are probably just as scared as you are.  Any "Flemish interest" that is different from the interests of the people who have to live with Flanders is simply a scam.  I'm pretty sure it's not my interests they have in mind.

For a long time, the strategy against the VB has been to do nothing, address none of the reasons why so many people are scared of losing what they have, and hope the problem would go away.  This has not been working.  Letting them into government would make Belgium a visibly worse off place.  I suppose there's always confronting Belgians with their prejudices - there was an entire chapter in my Dutch curriculum about prejudices and dealing with them, maybe Flemings need the same training - but somehow telling Flemings that they all share the blame probably won't earn anyone votes.  Somehow, the idea that their favourite scapegoats have nothing to do with their problems is a message that doesn't ever sink in.

I'm beginning to think there might be something to calls to end mandatory voting.  I'll bet a lot of the VB voters would just as soon stay home.

But instead, Flemings are going to talk about gun control.  Dewinter has already beaten a hasty retreat from the VB's earlier calls to reduce gun controls.  In the States, I always used to respond to both pro- and anti-gun arguments with "Guns don't kill people; Americans kill people. Mandatory licensing for Americans now!"  Racism is not white trash with guns; racism is systemic oppression.  Racism is when you can't get into a nightclub in Antwerp on a Friday night because your skin is too dark and then when you go to a mosque, people suspect you of being a terrorist.

De Morgen quoted an elderly Antwerpenaar in its Sunday edition, saying that the refugees coming to Belgium now are not doing anything different than what she did fleeing the Luftwaffe in 1940.  So, I have a little hope.

Sorry to sound so bitter.  It's just that there are a lot of moments lately when I want to take this entire country and slap it upside the head.  Usually it's just in traffic, or when Belgians have to line up for something.  If there is a people less capable of organizing a queue, I am hard pressed to think of who they could be.  Or sometimes, when I have to deal with the Belastingsdienst who still won't acknowledge that I live in Brussels and should damn well be able to use French forms.

But lately, it's been whenever I buy a newspaper.  I guess it's the price of finally getting involved in local affairs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, the Vlaams Belang is not just about racism.  Sometimes it&#8217;s about ethnocentrism and middle class paranoia.</p>
<p>I do understand fear of losing what you have.  I generally try to stand behind the people who have those kinds of fears, but my support is conditional, and among the conditions are recognizing that your neighbours are probably just as scared as you are.  Any &#8220;Flemish interest&#8221; that is different from the interests of the people who have to live with Flanders is simply a scam.  I&#8217;m pretty sure it&#8217;s not my interests they have in mind.</p>
<p>For a long time, the strategy against the VB has been to do nothing, address none of the reasons why so many people are scared of losing what they have, and hope the problem would go away.  This has not been working.  Letting them into government would make Belgium a visibly worse off place.  I suppose there&#8217;s always confronting Belgians with their prejudices - there was an entire chapter in my Dutch curriculum about prejudices and dealing with them, maybe Flemings need the same training - but somehow telling Flemings that they all share the blame probably won&#8217;t earn anyone votes.  Somehow, the idea that their favourite scapegoats have nothing to do with their problems is a message that doesn&#8217;t ever sink in.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m beginning to think there might be something to calls to end mandatory voting.  I&#8217;ll bet a lot of the VB voters would just as soon stay home.</p>
<p>But instead, Flemings are going to talk about gun control.  Dewinter has already beaten a hasty retreat from the VB&#8217;s earlier calls to reduce gun controls.  In the States, I always used to respond to both pro- and anti-gun arguments with &#8220;Guns don&#8217;t kill people; Americans kill people. Mandatory licensing for Americans now!&#8221;  Racism is not white trash with guns; racism is systemic oppression.  Racism is when you can&#8217;t get into a nightclub in Antwerp on a Friday night because your skin is too dark and then when you go to a mosque, people suspect you of being a terrorist.</p>
<p>De Morgen quoted an elderly Antwerpenaar in its Sunday edition, saying that the refugees coming to Belgium now are not doing anything different than what she did fleeing the Luftwaffe in 1940.  So, I have a little hope.</p>
<p>Sorry to sound so bitter.  It&#8217;s just that there are a lot of moments lately when I want to take this entire country and slap it upside the head.  Usually it&#8217;s just in traffic, or when Belgians have to line up for something.  If there is a people less capable of organizing a queue, I am hard pressed to think of who they could be.  Or sometimes, when I have to deal with the Belastingsdienst who still won&#8217;t acknowledge that I live in Brussels and should damn well be able to use French forms.</p>
<p>But lately, it&#8217;s been whenever I buy a newspaper.  I guess it&#8217;s the price of finally getting involved in local affairs.</p>
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		<title>By: Guy</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/minorities-and-integration/belgium-yet-again-in-turmoil-over-killings/#comment-14456</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 03:42:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2532#comment-14456</guid>
		<description>"This explains, for example, why VB is popular with people who want an independent Flanders (ie no longer subsidising Wallony)."

Better: This explains "partly" why VB is popular with "a number of people" in the middle-class segment of the population.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;This explains, for example, why VB is popular with people who want an independent Flanders (ie no longer subsidising Wallony).&#8221;</p>
<p>Better: This explains &#8220;partly&#8221; why VB is popular with &#8220;a number of people&#8221; in the middle-class segment of the population.</p>
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		<title>By: Guy</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/minorities-and-integration/belgium-yet-again-in-turmoil-over-killings/#comment-14455</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 03:08:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2532#comment-14455</guid>
		<description>"Does the VB have a position on the death penalty? And to they generally present themselves as a law-and-order party? Since I don't follow Belgian politics, these are not rhetorical questions."

VB does present itself as a law-and-order party and as a party defending family values. I do not know where they stand on the death penalty, they do not mention it in their party programme.

One of their raisons d'être is an independent Flanders. Even when they have been focussing on immigration in the past couple of years, it has never been off their political agenda and I have a feeling separatism is fast becoming one of their major campaign issues again.

It is important to know they are more than just a "racist party". They present themselves as the true defenders of Flemish interests. Financially, culturally, socially and politically. At least, in their campaigns and official publications. That is why Verhofstadt is playing a dangerous game by blaming them for the Van Themsche murders. Most people I have spoken to do NOT blame VB and if Verhofstadt is seen as playing a cynical game of strategy, that might very well play into the hands of VB. 

If you blame them, make sure you are on target and have clean hands yourself. I am not at all an apologist for VB, but I have seen the demonisation strategy backfire before. And do not forget VB has been in the opposition their entire history, they are battle-hardened and know to press the correct buttons (like any political party) at the right moments.

Today there was a Belgian professor on French tv who said the average profile of a VB-voter is solidly middle-class and consists of people who are afraid to lose what they have. This explains, for example, why VB is popular with people who want an independent Flanders (ie no longer subsidising Wallony). It is not just about racism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Does the VB have a position on the death penalty? And to they generally present themselves as a law-and-order party? Since I don&#8217;t follow Belgian politics, these are not rhetorical questions.&#8221;</p>
<p>VB does present itself as a law-and-order party and as a party defending family values. I do not know where they stand on the death penalty, they do not mention it in their party programme.</p>
<p>One of their raisons d&#8217;être is an independent Flanders. Even when they have been focussing on immigration in the past couple of years, it has never been off their political agenda and I have a feeling separatism is fast becoming one of their major campaign issues again.</p>
<p>It is important to know they are more than just a &#8220;racist party&#8221;. They present themselves as the true defenders of Flemish interests. Financially, culturally, socially and politically. At least, in their campaigns and official publications. That is why Verhofstadt is playing a dangerous game by blaming them for the Van Themsche murders. Most people I have spoken to do NOT blame VB and if Verhofstadt is seen as playing a cynical game of strategy, that might very well play into the hands of VB. </p>
<p>If you blame them, make sure you are on target and have clean hands yourself. I am not at all an apologist for VB, but I have seen the demonisation strategy backfire before. And do not forget VB has been in the opposition their entire history, they are battle-hardened and know to press the correct buttons (like any political party) at the right moments.</p>
<p>Today there was a Belgian professor on French tv who said the average profile of a VB-voter is solidly middle-class and consists of people who are afraid to lose what they have. This explains, for example, why VB is popular with people who want an independent Flanders (ie no longer subsidising Wallony). It is not just about racism.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/minorities-and-integration/belgium-yet-again-in-turmoil-over-killings/#comment-14454</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 02:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2532#comment-14454</guid>
		<description>Does the VB have a position on the death penalty? And to they generally present themselves as a law-and-order party? Since I don't follow Belgian politics, these are not rhetorical questions.

A question that is a bit more rhetorical: For any commenters here not inclined to see a connection between the VB and these murders, what do they think (or did they think at the time) of connections between Italy's communists and the Red Brigades? Or between the left wing of the German SPD and the Rote Armee Fraktion?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does the VB have a position on the death penalty? And to they generally present themselves as a law-and-order party? Since I don&#8217;t follow Belgian politics, these are not rhetorical questions.</p>
<p>A question that is a bit more rhetorical: For any commenters here not inclined to see a connection between the VB and these murders, what do they think (or did they think at the time) of connections between Italy&#8217;s communists and the Red Brigades? Or between the left wing of the German SPD and the Rote Armee Fraktion?</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Martens</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/minorities-and-integration/belgium-yet-again-in-turmoil-over-killings/#comment-14453</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Martens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 May 2006 01:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2532#comment-14453</guid>
		<description>If the press is any guide, the weight of this is falling on the VB.  Of course, one of the problems in Belgium is that the press isn't a really good guide.  BTW, whose brilliant idea was it for the VB to put their headquarters in Sint-Josse-ten-Node, the commune with the highest percentage immigrants in Belgium?  

I note, with irony, how crimes committed by immigrants are subject to collective responsibility for the far right, while crimes by white people are purely a matter of persona responsibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the press is any guide, the weight of this is falling on the VB.  Of course, one of the problems in Belgium is that the press isn&#8217;t a really good guide.  BTW, whose brilliant idea was it for the VB to put their headquarters in Sint-Josse-ten-Node, the commune with the highest percentage immigrants in Belgium?  </p>
<p>I note, with irony, how crimes committed by immigrants are subject to collective responsibility for the far right, while crimes by white people are purely a matter of persona responsibility.</p>
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		<title>By: Luca Brasi</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/minorities-and-integration/belgium-yet-again-in-turmoil-over-killings/#comment-14452</link>
		<dc:creator>Luca Brasi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 May 2006 20:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2532#comment-14452</guid>
		<description>This can't be.  The USA is supposed to be the only racist nation on the planet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This can&#8217;t be.  The USA is supposed to be the only racist nation on the planet.</p>
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		<title>By: Expresso_expression</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/minorities-and-integration/belgium-yet-again-in-turmoil-over-killings/#comment-14451</link>
		<dc:creator>Expresso_expression</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 May 2006 19:13:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2532#comment-14451</guid>
		<description>'Falling Down,' for sure. Throw in the shaven head and a feeling that society is going to hell in a hand basket and then you've got 'Taxi Driver' as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Falling Down,&#8217; for sure. Throw in the shaven head and a feeling that society is going to hell in a hand basket and then you&#8217;ve got &#8216;Taxi Driver&#8217; as well.</p>
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