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	<title>Comments on: Gamsakhurdia</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/history/gamsakhurdia/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 01:25:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Kulick</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/history/gamsakhurdia/#comment-22756</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Kulick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3460#comment-22756</guid>
		<description>Your characterization of the Armenians in Georgia isn't quite right.  They are not "geographically dispersed"; a few neighborhoods of Tbilisi and, in Samtskhe-Javakheti, the Ninotsminda and Akhalkalaki districts and the city of Akhaltsikhe, account for nearly all.  Outside of Tbilisi, to the extent that they're "bilingual" it's in Armenian and Russian--very few speak Georgian.  Outside of Tbilisi, education is poor and unemployment high.

You're right that irredentist sentiments are weak these days.  As for the Georgian government's posture towards S-J, I think you're too harsh.  Under Shevardnadze, the region was ignored.  Full stop.  It was physically and culturally isolated, with much closer ties to Armenia than to the rest of Georgia.  The Saakashvili government has sought to end that isolation and to promote national integration.  Roads, media, Georgian-language instruction, and such. 

The approach has been hamfisted and tone deaf, but it is improving.  Faster than most Georgians' attitudes about Armenians, I'd venture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your characterization of the Armenians in Georgia isn&#8217;t quite right.  They are not &#8220;geographically dispersed&#8221;; a few neighborhoods of Tbilisi and, in Samtskhe-Javakheti, the Ninotsminda and Akhalkalaki districts and the city of Akhaltsikhe, account for nearly all.  Outside of Tbilisi, to the extent that they&#8217;re &#8220;bilingual&#8221; it&#8217;s in Armenian and Russian&#8211;very few speak Georgian.  Outside of Tbilisi, education is poor and unemployment high.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right that irredentist sentiments are weak these days.  As for the Georgian government&#8217;s posture towards S-J, I think you&#8217;re too harsh.  Under Shevardnadze, the region was ignored.  Full stop.  It was physically and culturally isolated, with much closer ties to Armenia than to the rest of Georgia.  The Saakashvili government has sought to end that isolation and to promote national integration.  Roads, media, Georgian-language instruction, and such. </p>
<p>The approach has been hamfisted and tone deaf, but it is improving.  Faster than most Georgians&#8217; attitudes about Armenians, I&#8217;d venture.</p>
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		<title>By: Wim Roffel</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/history/gamsakhurdia/#comment-21925</link>
		<dc:creator>Wim Roffel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 16:51:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3460#comment-21925</guid>
		<description>Hi Doug,

Maybe you can tell something more on Adjaria? According to Wikipedia (ok, I know...) many people are converting from Islam to Christianity. And I read something about Saakashvili winning 28 out 30 seats in elections - what might a bit too much to be honest. It makes me wonder what is really going on there. 

Wim</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Doug,</p>
<p>Maybe you can tell something more on Adjaria? According to Wikipedia (ok, I know&#8230;) many people are converting from Islam to Christianity. And I read something about Saakashvili winning 28 out 30 seats in elections - what might a bit too much to be honest. It makes me wonder what is really going on there. </p>
<p>Wim</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Edwards</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/history/gamsakhurdia/#comment-21885</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3460#comment-21885</guid>
		<description>Hi Doug,

OT, but I've just been reading about our own government's "Community Cohesion" programme (short version: "why do all these British Asians hate us? must be because they're too Asian and not British enough!"). This line

&lt;i&gt;They’re not very assimilated, but they are very well integrated&lt;/i&gt;

sums up what's wrong with the whole thing very neatly. I liked the summing-up of Milosevic, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Doug,</p>
<p>OT, but I&#8217;ve just been reading about our own government&#8217;s &#8220;Community Cohesion&#8221; programme (short version: &#8220;why do all these British Asians hate us? must be because they&#8217;re too Asian and not British enough!&#8221;). This line</p>
<p><i>They’re not very assimilated, but they are very well integrated</i></p>
<p>sums up what&#8217;s wrong with the whole thing very neatly. I liked the summing-up of Milosevic, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Boris</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/history/gamsakhurdia/#comment-21861</link>
		<dc:creator>Boris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 20:41:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3460#comment-21861</guid>
		<description>Douglas, by "warlordism" I mean the state of affairs in Georgia in 1992-1993 when various armed groups demonstrated loyalty to their respective bosses. Unlike etnic separatists, these bosses were not looking for secession (neither did classical warlords of China in the 1920s). Later Shevardnadze managed to weaken and ultimately destroy them - just like Chiang Kai-shek before.

As for the role of Gamsakhurdia in the debacle of Abkhasia, I believe that your interpretation is much debatable. Looks like the causality runs the opposite way: first, Georgia had been severely beaten in Abkhasia, particularly since July 1993, and only after the defeat was almost complete and the fall of Sukhumi inevitable, Gamsakhurdia decided to seek his final chance to oust  the plotters from Tbilisi.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Douglas, by &#8220;warlordism&#8221; I mean the state of affairs in Georgia in 1992-1993 when various armed groups demonstrated loyalty to their respective bosses. Unlike etnic separatists, these bosses were not looking for secession (neither did classical warlords of China in the 1920s). Later Shevardnadze managed to weaken and ultimately destroy them - just like Chiang Kai-shek before.</p>
<p>As for the role of Gamsakhurdia in the debacle of Abkhasia, I believe that your interpretation is much debatable. Looks like the causality runs the opposite way: first, Georgia had been severely beaten in Abkhasia, particularly since July 1993, and only after the defeat was almost complete and the fall of Sukhumi inevitable, Gamsakhurdia decided to seek his final chance to oust  the plotters from Tbilisi.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Muir</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/history/gamsakhurdia/#comment-21860</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Muir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 20:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3460#comment-21860</guid>
		<description>@Joerg, traffic cops are some of the most hated men (they're always men) in the Caucasus.  All across the region, they make a living by holding up motorists for bribes.  It doesn't matter if you're speeding or not: a cop will just stand on a corner, wave down cars at random, and hit the drivers for a few dollars each.  Unless you have serious connections, protesting this is going to be much more trouble than just paying the fine.

The cops do this because they can, and also because they're operating under a Soviet system of patronage: each cop kicks a certain amount of money back each month to his boss, who in turn kicks some back to his boss, and so on up to the Minister.  Failure to make your quota is worse than bad... it's a sign of disloyalty.  

I lived in Armenia for two years and got stopped any number of times.  I didn't get zapped if I was driving -- Westerners are too much trouble -- but if the driver was Armenian, he would have to pay.  

It's hard to overstate how much this pissed people off.  They accepted it fatalistically, but they hated it.  A lot.

So, Saakashvili's first move in office: he fired *all the traffic cops*, right up to the highest and most senior.  Then he hired back about a third of them, doubled their pay, told them there was a new regime, and made that stick.  The whole obnoxious traffic cop shakedown thing, common across the former USSR and universal in the Caucasus... no longer exists in Georgia.  At all.  

It was awesome.  "Brilliant" is not too strong a word.


Doug M.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Joerg, traffic cops are some of the most hated men (they&#8217;re always men) in the Caucasus.  All across the region, they make a living by holding up motorists for bribes.  It doesn&#8217;t matter if you&#8217;re speeding or not: a cop will just stand on a corner, wave down cars at random, and hit the drivers for a few dollars each.  Unless you have serious connections, protesting this is going to be much more trouble than just paying the fine.</p>
<p>The cops do this because they can, and also because they&#8217;re operating under a Soviet system of patronage: each cop kicks a certain amount of money back each month to his boss, who in turn kicks some back to his boss, and so on up to the Minister.  Failure to make your quota is worse than bad&#8230; it&#8217;s a sign of disloyalty.  </p>
<p>I lived in Armenia for two years and got stopped any number of times.  I didn&#8217;t get zapped if I was driving &#8212; Westerners are too much trouble &#8212; but if the driver was Armenian, he would have to pay.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s hard to overstate how much this pissed people off.  They accepted it fatalistically, but they hated it.  A lot.</p>
<p>So, Saakashvili&#8217;s first move in office: he fired *all the traffic cops*, right up to the highest and most senior.  Then he hired back about a third of them, doubled their pay, told them there was a new regime, and made that stick.  The whole obnoxious traffic cop shakedown thing, common across the former USSR and universal in the Caucasus&#8230; no longer exists in Georgia.  At all.  </p>
<p>It was awesome.  &#8220;Brilliant&#8221; is not too strong a word.</p>
<p>Doug M.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Muir</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/history/gamsakhurdia/#comment-21859</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Muir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 19:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3460#comment-21859</guid>
		<description>@Boris, I'm really not sure what you mean by 'warlordism'.  Georgia hasn't seen a lot of that -- unless you count ethnic separatism, which is really something different.

I disagree that Gamsakhurdia was no worse than other post-Soviet leaders in the region.  For one thing, he managed to alienate pretty much all the country's elites with quite startling speed.  Ex-communists, anti-communists, pro-western liberals, nationalist mystics, bureaucrats, intellectuals, regional bosses -- by late 1991 there was astonishing unanimity among them all.

Also, Gamsakhurdia enjoys the unique distinction of invading his own country while it was desperately trying to fight a war... thereby ensuring, with full knowledge and malice, that the war would be lost.  This goes well beyond "difficult" or "eccentric" and into the realm of "treason" IMO.  You have to be pretty freaking egocentric -- like, insanely so -- to pull something like that.  In retrospect, it looks like the coup plotters knew their man.


Doug M.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Boris, I&#8217;m really not sure what you mean by &#8216;warlordism&#8217;.  Georgia hasn&#8217;t seen a lot of that &#8212; unless you count ethnic separatism, which is really something different.</p>
<p>I disagree that Gamsakhurdia was no worse than other post-Soviet leaders in the region.  For one thing, he managed to alienate pretty much all the country&#8217;s elites with quite startling speed.  Ex-communists, anti-communists, pro-western liberals, nationalist mystics, bureaucrats, intellectuals, regional bosses &#8212; by late 1991 there was astonishing unanimity among them all.</p>
<p>Also, Gamsakhurdia enjoys the unique distinction of invading his own country while it was desperately trying to fight a war&#8230; thereby ensuring, with full knowledge and malice, that the war would be lost.  This goes well beyond &#8220;difficult&#8221; or &#8220;eccentric&#8221; and into the realm of &#8220;treason&#8221; IMO.  You have to be pretty freaking egocentric &#8212; like, insanely so &#8212; to pull something like that.  In retrospect, it looks like the coup plotters knew their man.</p>
<p>Doug M.</p>
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		<title>By: Joerg</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/history/gamsakhurdia/#comment-21858</link>
		<dc:creator>Joerg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3460#comment-21858</guid>
		<description>"Does anyone remember when he fired all the traffic cops? That was brilliant."
How so? I really think this is worth explaining. What happened?

Boris: "warlordism and clientelism, total lack of cynical political realism". Now that´s an oxymoron a mile high and a kilometer wide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Does anyone remember when he fired all the traffic cops? That was brilliant.&#8221;<br />
How so? I really think this is worth explaining. What happened?</p>
<p>Boris: &#8220;warlordism and clientelism, total lack of cynical political realism&#8221;. Now that´s an oxymoron a mile high and a kilometer wide.</p>
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		<title>By: By The Fault &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Crisis in Georgia &#8212; An Update</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/history/gamsakhurdia/#comment-21854</link>
		<dc:creator>By The Fault &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Crisis in Georgia &#8212; An Update</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 08:49:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3460#comment-21854</guid>
		<description>[...] Zviad Gamsakhurdia The late Zviad Gamsakhurdia was the first President of independent Georgia.  Fistful of Euro&#8217;s Douglas Muir takes a look at his role in the current crisis. So, Georgia Georgia Georgia. Yet [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Zviad Gamsakhurdia The late Zviad Gamsakhurdia was the first President of independent Georgia.  Fistful of Euro&#8217;s Douglas Muir takes a look at his role in the current crisis. So, Georgia Georgia Georgia. Yet [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Davos Newbies &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Your choice: drunks, connivers, thugs or lunatics</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/history/gamsakhurdia/#comment-21853</link>
		<dc:creator>Davos Newbies &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Your choice: drunks, connivers, thugs or lunatics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 23:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3460#comment-21853</guid>
		<description>[...] Muir at Fistful of Euros provides a pithy, essential summary of political leadership following the collapse of the Soviet bloc. In my Davos [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Muir at Fistful of Euros provides a pithy, essential summary of political leadership following the collapse of the Soviet bloc. In my Davos [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/history/gamsakhurdia/#comment-21851</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3460#comment-21851</guid>
		<description>Great retrospective on Gamsakhurdia and I appreciate your shout out to the Armenians. It should be noted Sakashvili's huge new Georgian cathedral in Tbilisi is being built on top of a major Armenian cemetery. It is no secret to Georgians that Tbilisi was formerly a majority Armenian city and its eastern cultural center. The bones of some of the most famous Armenian writers, poets, and heroes now lie in an open pit or under the cathedral itself as it was the lucky site which just so happened to be picked as the location of this hulking symbol of Georgian Orthodox faith. If that's not making a strong message directed at the Armenians what is?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great retrospective on Gamsakhurdia and I appreciate your shout out to the Armenians. It should be noted Sakashvili&#8217;s huge new Georgian cathedral in Tbilisi is being built on top of a major Armenian cemetery. It is no secret to Georgians that Tbilisi was formerly a majority Armenian city and its eastern cultural center. The bones of some of the most famous Armenian writers, poets, and heroes now lie in an open pit or under the cathedral itself as it was the lucky site which just so happened to be picked as the location of this hulking symbol of Georgian Orthodox faith. If that&#8217;s not making a strong message directed at the Armenians what is?</p>
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