Greece: citizenship for children of immigrants?

In between trying to deal with one of Europe’s worst economic crises and a crippling series of strikes, the Papandreou government in Greece has introduced a new immigration law. It would allow the children of immigrants to apply for Greek citizenship, provided that

(1) their parents have lived legally in Greece for at least 10 years, and
(2) the child has completed at least three years of schooling in Greece.

By one estimate, over 250,000 children and young adults would qualify for citizenship. As many as 100,000 of those may be of voting age.

This is a huge, huge deal. In order to understand why, you have to understand the odd position of immigrants in Greek society.
Immigrants began pouring into Greece from its former Communist neighbors in the early 1990s. The biggest group by far was Albanians — about 2/3 of all immigrants are Albanian — but there are also tens of thousands of Bulgarians and Macedonians and a sprinkling of people from further abroad (Ukrainians, Filipinos, you name it). Today nearly ten percent of Greece’s population is immigrants, and almost 20% of the workforce.

However: almost none of these immigrants have been allowed to apply for citizenship. In fact, Greece’s immigration system is quite deliberately set up to make this almost impossible. Instead, immigrant workers are allowed a work/residence permit for a maximum of one year. The bureaucracy that oversees the immigration system is famously opaque and sluggish, so workers (or their employers) must apply for permits many months in advance. Even so, the old permit often expires before the new one is granted.

In fact, citizenship by naturalization is almost unknown in Greece. Greek law recognizes citizenship jus sanguinis, “by blood”, through at least one Greek parent. Otherwise… well, the naturalization process is so difficult that the number of new Greek citizens from naturalization is a few hundred per year.

Previous Greek governments operated under the assumption that Greece simply did not want non-Greek citizens, and that guest workers were just that — temporary guests. The system was thus designed to keep immigrant workers on a perpetual treadmill, always either applying for a new permit, about to apply, or nervously waiting for one after the old one expired. All the immigrants were thus vulnerable to expulsion for any reason or none: feature, not bug.

But this consensus is now breaking down. Part of the reason is simply the passage of time. 20 years after the first wave of immigrants arrived, there are now tens of thousands of Albanians and Bulgarians who have been in Greece nonstop for most of their adult lives. They own houses or apartments, speak fluent Greek, and are settled members of their communities. Furthermore, there are now about a quarter of a milllion children of immigrants; in some schools, they outnumber native Greeks.

If a child is born in Greece, speaks perfect Greek, wants to live in Greece, and is willing to swear loyalty to the Greek state — should that child be allowed Greek citizenship?

The Papandreou administration is saying yes. However, it’s not quite that easy.

A fierce nationalist backlash has already appeared. Parties of the right — especially the odious LAOS — are accusing the administration of “diluting Hellenism” and betraying the spirit of the nation. The Greek Orthodox Church has not made a formal statement, but it’s clearly unenthusiastic about a bill that would allow thousands of Muslims and Catholics to become Greek.

And while most of the nationalist rhetoric is irrational (and much of it is outright hateful), there is a real point here. If this law is passed, or one like it, then within a generation betwen 5% and 10% of Greece’s population may not be ethnic Greeks. They’ll be hyphenated: Albanian-Greeks, Bulgarian-Greeks, Pakistani-Greeks. In a country that is over 90% self-identified ethnic Greeks, this is going to be an incredibly fast and dramatic change.

That said, there is precedent. It seems to have been forgotten by almost all parties to the debate, but something like this has happened in Greece before. At the time of Greek independence, back in the 19th century, something between 5% and 10% of Greece’s population spoke… Albanian.

The “Arvanites” were ethnic Albanians of the Orthodox faith. They moved into the penninsula during late Byzantine and early Ottoman times; by independence, they had been there for centuries. They spoke Albanian and were culturally slightly different from their Greek neighbors, but there was little discrimination or hostility between the groups. They were united by a common Orthodox faith and a common resentment of their Turkish rulers. Intermarriage was common, and Arvanites who left their villages quickly became bilingual in Greek.

More to the point, the long war of independence cemented the Arvanites into the Greek nation. After a decade of fighting alongside the ethnic Greeks against the Turks, they came to consider themselves, not Albanians, but Greeks who happened to speak Albanian at home. Over the next 180 years, the Arvanites steadily assimilated into Greece. Today only a handful speak Arvanite even at home, and they do not like being called “Albanian”.

Arvanites have been Presidents and Prime Ministers, generals and admirals, artists and businessmen and scholars. The current Archbishop of Athens, head of the Greek Orthodox Church, is an Arvanite. Nobody gives it a moment’s thought. Being an Arvanite is a complete non-issue in Greece.

So Greece has managed to assimilate a large non-Greek population once already. (Arguably more than once. But the population transfers of the 20th century are a touchy topic. Some other time, perhaps.)

That said, this is going to be a very fraught and difficult law to pass. And whether it passes, and if so in what form, is going to have a huge impact on Greece’s future.

Watching with interest.

111 thoughts on “Greece: citizenship for children of immigrants?

  1. “Who said anything about pirro?”
    READ before you comment. I taled about the 1800s(“turkalbanians &arvanites”) and also mentioned that in ancient times there was nobody identified as ‘Albanian’. Only mentioned ancient times because you mentioned it ‘Ancient times were only turkalbanians’, when I never talked about ancient times! Hope to have cleared this.

    “Clearly you’re feeling threatened, because you’re trying to anticipate what I’m going to say it seems.”
    Are you trying to play shrink? I was merely trying to guess why on earth you mentioned ancient times.

    “Yea and turnout in those referendums is 60% on a good day. It’s bull that just a few weeks ago TIME had a piece saying how switzerland was democracy gone crazy, with their option to have referenda on everything”.

    It’s called democracy, you know. Since when was TIME the ultimate judge? TIME is a business and will print what suits their interests.
    “But anyway, doesn’t change the fact that its an outdated law that’s a remnant from previous centuries.”
    Your opinion, which of course is the ultimate truth. But I see neither Albania, nor Canada giving citizenship to everybody. Otherwise it would be simple to ship all immigrants from Greece to Canada or Albania where life is much better, society more friendly and you can get citizenship when you land.

    “I’ll let you run a google search, or encarta, or britannia or even wikipedia.”
    Here is what I found:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Massacres_in_Greece
    1.Athens Polytechnic uprising in 1973
    2.Chios Massacre refers to the slaughter of tens of thousands of Greeks on the island of Chios by Ottoman troops in 1822
    3.The Distomo massacre was a Nazi war crime perpetrated by members of the Waffen-SS in the village of Distomo, Greece, during the Axis occupation of Greece during World War II.
    4.Massacre of Kalavryta (, refers to the extermination of the male population and the subsequent total destruction of the town of Kalavryta, in Greece, by German occupying forces during World War II on 13 December 1943
    5.The Razing of Kandanos or the Holocaust of Kandanos refers to the complete destruction of the village of Kandanos in Western Crete (Greece) and the execution of several of its inhabitants on 3 June 1941 by German occupying forces during World War II
    6.The Kasos massacre was the massacre of Greek civilians during the Greek War of Independence.
    On 7 June 1824, Mehmet Ali’s men landed on Kasos and killed around 7,000 inhabitants
    7.The Massacre of Kondomari refers to the execution of male civilians from the village of Kondomari in Crete by an ad hoc firing squad consisting of German paratroopers on 2 June 1941 during World War II.
    8.The Massacre of the Acqui Division (, also known as the Cephalonia Massacre , was the mass execution of the men of the Italian 33rd Acqui Infantry Division by the Germans in the island of Kefalonia, Greece,
    9.The Mesovouno massacre) refers to two massacres perpetrated by members of the Wehrmacht in the village of Mesovouno in Ptolemaida, Greece, during the Axis occupation of Greece, carried out on 23 October 1941 and 22 April 1944.[1]
    10.Navarino Massacre[1] was one of a series of massacres that occurred following the outbreak of the Greek War of Independence, which resulted in the extermination of the Turkish civilian population previously inhabiting the region.
    11.The Paramythia executions, also known as the Paramythia massacre (19-29 September 1943) was a combined Nazi and Cham Albanian war crime perpetrated by members of the 1st Mountain Division and the Muslim Cham militia in the town of Paramythia and its surrounding region, during the Axis occupation of Greece. 201 Greek villagers were murdered and 19 municipalities in the region of Paramythia were destroyed
    12.the Massacre of Tripolitsa, which occurred after the city’s fall to the Greeks…It was also a potent symbol for revenge, its Greek population having been repeatedly massacred by the Ottomans in the past: the latest such event, a few months earlier, followed after the failed rebellion at Moldavia in early 1821; previous massacres of the town’s Greeks occurred in 1715 (during the Ottoman reconquest of the Morea) and on Holy Monday, 29 March 1770, after the failed Orlov Revolt.[9][10]
    13.The Tarlis incident is the name given to the killing of 17 Bulgarian peasants by a Greek officer on July 27, 1924 at Tarlis (present-day Vathitopos), a mountainous village in the Drama region near Greek-Bulgarian borders…Doksakis at the head of 10 Greek soldiers led bound captives via a mountain trail bypassing the public road between Tarlis and Gorno Vrondi. He returned five hours later to announce that his squad was attacked by Bulgarian commitadzis, and that when detainees tried to escape he was forced to kill 17 of them.
    14.The Massacre of Thessalonica was a retaliatory action by the Roman Emperor Theodosius I in 390 against the inhabitants of Thessalonica, who had risen in revolt.

    Care to elaborate which ones you refer to? Because ony 10, 12 and 13 can possibly be blamed on greeks. 10 and 12 were more than justified and 13 involved 17 people and is disputed.

    “You need to realize that people have a right to express opinions.”
    Yes, but first state them as opinions and second, nobody has to take these opinions seriously, when they are unsubstantiated or clearly crazy.

    “Every case in Europe is special”. So Helsinki does not apply? In any case, if there is a problem, you will not be asked to solve it…

    “You don’t know me, and you certainly don’t have the right to put me in the same category as people you label as “nazi scum”.”
    Read again what YOU wrote:
    “A kosovo case could’ve happened in greece as well with chameria, but the greek government took care of that, exactly for fear of this happening.”
    Either deliberately, or out of ignorance you spread a LIE, as I showed you since there WAS NO GREEK GOVERNMENT AT THE TIME. If you did take the time to learn about Chams, at least do bother to learn the WHOLE story. So, I will backtrack and say “their friend” instead of “your friend” if you also backtrack these accusations about the non-existent greek government.

  2. @mirakulous:

    “USA, Russia and China dont have 10% or more of their population made up of immigrants with no status. Greece does, and thats why greece should find a solution, to a problem that greece has.”
    Why is it a problem that Greece has? These people made a choice” It is better in Greece with no status than in their countries with full status”. Unlike Italy, we do not let them drown, but we never promised them citizenship.
    We cannot offer citizenship to all of Asia and Africa. Much larger countries do not and Greece is not a big country.

    “Clearly you have something to fear and are insecure. What co-owning the house?”
    Again playing shrink? Yes, citizenship means these people vote and can pass laws that affect my life. Citizenship is irrevokable and if we get some 5mil moslem immigrants, this means they can vote and impose their saria law on me. Hell, no! Only people integrated who share our values should get citizenship, just like everywhere else.

    ” You do realize that EU citizens can come to greece from anywhere in the EU; arent you afraid some irishmen will eventually make a case that they co-own your house?”
    No. Irish do not vote in Greece and greeks do not vote in Ireland. And they are not particularly fond of saria law either.

    “Really? Since they’re so illegal, why don’t you send them back then? The problem would be solved.”
    The answer is humanitarian reasons. Also note that they do not want to go back. Do you really think anyone in Greece profits from Pakistanis in every corner wiping the car windows while the car waits for the light to turn green?

    “Also, are children that were born there illegally born as well? If so, send them back too I guess.”
    Children are innocent, but that does not mean they should automatically get citizenship.

    “If you give them citizen status, they will have the obligations that come with it too. Go and ask naturalized americans, if they don’t also have the obligations as well as the rights that come with being american(since you’ve lived and worked there).”
    Do you also think you can cross into the US, and demand citizenship? Have you ever heard of California’s proposition 209?
    Other than that, I am absolutely clear on this: Those who become citizens, should be full citizens. Just that this is not an automatic right, but a privilege to be earned and awarded only to the very best, who are well integrated and share our values. Just like every other country.

  3. Folks, this is a moderated forum. We’ve deleted comments in the past, and will again if need be. Play nice.

    Also, long comments are annoying and hard to read. Either keep them short, or break them up, please.

    Doug M.

  4. @ chris (and others): First, you are all playing along with the government’s plan, ie you’re getting all hot and bothered about this issue than about the economic crisis. This is exactly what Sarkozy has done in France.

    Second, on investigation, I’m wondering why the government might want to consider a change in their nationality laws anyway. At present, Greek nationality can be granted after 5 years’ permanent residence following an acceptable request. You have to swear a loyalty oath and must receive a good “morality” report (I pass over whether this might extend to understanding how the system of bribery …. joke!). You don’t need to be able to speak Greek, know anything of the country’s history, nor even show you have adequate income. And, chris, you’re right: a criminal record is not taken into account.

    chris, you mention Italy: they require 10 years’ permanent residence and nothing more than that!

    I got these details from “Access to citizenship: a comparison of 25 nationality laws” by Patrick Weil, in “Citizenship today: global perspectives and practices” ed Aleinkoff & Klusmeyer, Carnegie International Peace Foundation 2001.

    Getting into any country through illegal means is – well – illegal. And that is the case in the EU, the US and just about every country. Some get more worked up about it than others: the EU and the US especially.

  5. @french derek:”I’m wondering why the government might want to consider a change in their nationality laws anyway.”(especialy in the midst of a crisis)
    Good question. Why divide when you need all the unity you can get? But then again noone ever accused Mr. Papandreou or any other greek politician for that matter of being bright.

    @doug: Point on length taken. Point on moderation, does it refer to anything I wrote?

  6. “At present, Greek nationality can be granted after 5 years’ permanent residence following an acceptable request.”

    In theory. In practice, this almost never happens.

    Under the current system, the state can reject citizenship applications for any reason, or for none at all. The number of naturalizations granted to people who are neither ethnic Greeks nor married to ethnic Greeks is tiny — a few hundred a year.

    The Papandreou legislation would turn this around: the government would *have to* grant citizenship to people who meet the requrements, unless it can show a good reason not to.

    Doug M.

  7. “they require 10 years’ permanent residence and nothing more than that!”

    …it’s worth checking how many people actually naturalize. In Italy, the number — discounting ethnic Italians and people married to ethnic Italians — is around 20,000 per year.

    That’s a lot more than in Greece, true. OTOH it’s pretty small given how easy the formal requirement is, no? Italy has, ohh, probably a couple of million people who’ve been permanent residents for ten years or more. Yet only about 1% of them are getting naturalized per year.

    — Actually getting naturalized in Italy is no easy thing. It’s possible, but it’s definitely not “Oh, you’ve been here ten years? welcome! here’s your passport!”

    Doug M.

  8. “Under the current system, the state can reject citizenship applications for any reason, or for none at all.”
    No different than the greek state treats grek citizens: They can be convicted for any reason for example, or no reason at all. So?

    ” The number of naturalizations granted to people who are neither ethnic Greeks nor married to ethnic Greeks is tiny — a few hundred a year.”
    Why is this bad? Naturalizing the best and only those that are integrated is desirable. Why should there be a quota?

    “The Papandreou legislation would turn this around: the government would *have to* grant citizenship to people who meet the requrements, unless it can show a good reason not to.”
    …and that reason would be appelable in courts, including the European Courts….

    “Actually getting naturalized in Italy is no easy thing. It’s possible, but it’s definitely not “Oh, you’ve been here ten years? welcome! here’s your passport!””
    Why should it be easy? It’s not about being admitted in a country club.

  9. Noted in passing: Canada has about 34 million people, or about three times the population of Greece.

    Just over 5 million Canadians — about one person in seven — are naturalized immigrants. If we remove immigrants from culturally similar Britain, Ireland and the US, this figure drops to just under 4 million, or about 11% of the population.

    Canada is currently naturalizing about 150,000 people per year. If we eliminate Americans, Irish and Brits it’s still well over 100,000. About 50,000 new citizens per year are coming from poor or very poor countries in Africa and Asia.

    Of course, this has resulted in Canada’s swift descent into crime, terrorism, welfare dependency and complete social collapse. So there’s that.

    Doug M.

  10. On the other hand, Canada actually is a tolerant and working multi-cultural society, which is also prepared to handle immigration and naturalization of immigrants successfully.

    Greece is… well, it’s Greece. It’s sort of like trying to put a saddle on a cow.

    (And let’s keep in mind that nativism, anti-immigration populism, ethnocentrism, racism and other assorted forms of hysteria are on a steep rise also in the Nordic countries, my own homeland included.)

    Cheers,

    J. J.

  11. Canada is a vast industrialized country with institutions that work(at any rate much better than in Greece). I do not know about Canada, but most countries, like the US, the UK and so on have sophisticated surveillance and law/security enforcement that does a much better job at preventing crime and terrorism than does Greece. Still, the UK for example was not able to avert the London bombings. Still, Canada puts a limit on those it can naturalize. Otherwise, I would assume most immigrants would rather emigrate to Canada than Greece.

    A tolerant and working multi-cultural society
    in the Balkans was Yugoslavia. Multi-culturalism does not have only success stories.
    In general one should understand what one is doing and what the implications are. And part of being is a democracy is that people have the right to decide about changes that will affect their lives and the lives of their children.

  12. Chris, the concept of democracy is not the only pillar of open and modern societies, one of which Greece claims to be.

    If an imaginary and perfectly democratic referendum would take place in Greece today to imprison all emigrants I’m not so sure about the outcome. For that matter the mythical “tolerant” Swiss banned minaretes of which Switzerland has by now exactly 4 also in a perfectly democratic referendum. And things do not look much better in Germany or France.

    Yet, there is something almost irrelevant which should be taken into account. Let’s start with a couple of basic human rights. I think, here is the difference between Greece and Germany, France etc. Other than in Greece, rule of law and human rights in those countries are not just pieces of paper to cheat the way into an undeserved membership to a community of modern societies.

    If you let emigrants drudge for almost 10 or 20 years in a country and grant them almost no rights and even worse grant their children no rights, well, that is a human right problem. Don’t make the mistakes others (Germany) has made before you by thinking the emigrants/gastarbeiter are temporary. Those emigrants are going to stay because after 15-20 years they have nowhere else to go no matter how long or how hard LAOS calls “you are born Greek”. Deal with it.

  13. @chris.
    Read what you said in the first post of yours I commented: ‘As far as the revolutionaries were concerned, there were Turks and Turkalbanians(meaning moslem Albanians). There were no Albanians(with any sort of national conscience) in ancient times.’
    So its pretty clear who was talking about ancient times in the 1800s. Let’s drop this now please.

    TIME is not the ultimate judge on anything.It’s a much better judge than some guy on a blog online though.
    Also, my opinion is not the ultimate truth, but it’s pretty clear to those that think that if something was enacted centuries ago, then its centuries old. It’s very simple really. But you see this is the kind of smartass stuff people say when they don’t have a real answer, the comment on who the “ultimate judge” or “ultimate truth” is. If you wanna talk about those then you’re in the wrong place because there is no such thing here.
    As for your massacres, I was talking about massacres by greeks and not just in greece, so you probably entered the wrong search. It’s okay, I know you’re playing stupid.
    I was talking about the massacres carried out by zervas, such as this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Cham_Albanians

  14. @chris
    “In any case, if there is a problem, you will not be asked to solve it”
    And neither will you. Whats your point?!Or is it just lack of a serious answer? No one here will solve anything; this is just expressing comments.

    “Citizenship is irrevokable and if we get some 5mil moslem immigrants, this means they can vote and impose their saria law on me. Hell, no!”
    First of all, I always enjoy when greeks show their real xenophobic faces online(some EU peoples eh?!), and it amuses me. Second, if 5 million people moved to greece, mulsim or otherwise you’ll have some other serious problems buddy. A country of 11 million, would turn to anarchy(not that it hasn’t shown signs of it in the past couple years) if it got another 5 million people added to the mix.So religion would be your last concern if this happened.So chill out.

    “The answer is humanitarian reasons. Also note that they do not want to go back.”
    Greece is thinking about humanitarianism of its immigrants? NO WAY! I would’ve never believed this unless i heard it from you. Anyway, I thought the major problem was to save you from sharia law, and the fact they’re illegal.Seems to me that something that is illegal should be ceased immediately.Otherwise the greek government is perpetuating with full knowledge something that is illegal.Now this wouldn’t the first time that happens though, eh?!

  15. @chris
    “Children are innocent, but that does not mean they should automatically get citizenship. ”
    If they’re illegal, then they’re guilty i’d say.

    “Do you also think you can cross into the US, and demand citizenship?”
    I never said you can. I said that those that become citizens also bear the obligations that come with that. A few posts ago you were complaining about why immigrants should have the benefits of citizenship and not the obligations(such as serving in the military), and im telling you that they would of course have the obligations that come with it.
    And yes citizenship is not a right, it’s a privilege.It’s a privilege that many reasonable people would say thousands in greece have earned through decades of hard work and following the law; but you’d have to be reasonable for that. No xenophobe who has nightmares about sharia law would be able to see that clearly.(i’m speaking about people in general)

  16. @doug

    “Of course, this has resulted in Canada’s swift descent into crime, terrorism, welfare dependency and complete social collapse. So there’s that”

    Cite, please?

    Canada consistently tops the UN’s yearly list of best country in the world to live in. In the 90s it was on that list for 9 of 10 years. 2007(the last year I know about) it was #4 on that list. So the country with just about the 4th best quality of life in the world is in “social collapse” to you? I’d seriously verify your sources, as I’m canadian and I can tell you it’s nothing like that. Sure there are problems, and we always complain because we want better and better, but canada is up there with the best of them (norway, iceland b4 the crisis, switzerland).
    As for the “swift descent into crime”, high immigration doesn’t lead to crime necessarily. The US naturalizes less people than canada(relatively speaking based on population way less) and yet it has a skyrocketing crime rate(the highest in the world per capita,1% of population is in prison). Immigration doesn’t lead to crime if you have programs in place to settle those immigrants fast, settle their status, and get them working and building lives.
    And as for the crisis, canada is probably coming out of it better than all western economies. That’s why I’d really like to see where you got your information from.

  17. @chris (the last one ;))

    “Still, Canada puts a limit on those it can naturalize. Otherwise, I would assume most immigrants would rather emigrate to Canada than Greece.”

    You assume wrong.Even if canada had opened the doors wide opened many people wouldn’t come here.Theyd go somewhere close to home, so they can be close to the people theyre leaving behind, theyd go somewhere close to home where the climata is similar to what they’re used to, theyd go close to home where the culture in the neighbouring country no matter how different, it’ll be way more similar than going on the other side of the world. Also, it takes money to get to the other side of the world, so theyd go somewhere near where its less costly. Thats why so many albanians went to greece in 91/92. If theyd all gone to canada they would’ve all most likely gotten citizenship because of how the canadian system works. But for the above reasons I mentioned most chose to go to greece. For them even with its faults greece was better than going almost to the north pole.

  18. “Cite, please?”

    mirakulous, I would like to introduce you to my friend Mr. Sarcasm.

    Yes, the name sounds Greek. Actually, it /is/ Greek, originally. The root is the Latin ‘sarcasmos’, which in turn comes from the Greek ‘sarkazein’ — literally “to strip or tear the meat”. Really! Sarx, sarc-, flesh, meat, corpse, same root as ‘sarcophagus’.

    Sounds unpleasant, I know! But actually, Mr. Sarcasm is our friend. We just have to respect his power.

    Spend some time with Mr. Sarcasm, and perhaps one day you’ll get to meet his pretty (but confusing) sister, Ms. Irony. Meanwhile: Sarcasm, mirakulous. mirakulous, Sarcasm. I hope you two will be friends now.

    Doug M.

  19. Haha. Sorry doug. I totally didn’t catch that. I should’ve had more faith in you. I was just soooo shocked, lost all other senses. Your reply was hilarious though.

  20. I must say, I’m completely amazed that a post about Greece, Muslims, Balkan languages and immigration should attract so many angry comments.

  21. The problem with Greeks that are mostly (blood wise) Albanians, Vlachos and ….ORTHODOX TURKS. Only in 1923 they got 1.5 million Turks and other Asia Minor Christians. Before Turks occupied the Greeks, 45% of today’s Greece was Albanian (Google ‘arvanite Helsinki’). Add Vlachs and slavs and you get the idea. In 1923 Greece got all the Christians from Turkey (think of Orthodox Arabs, Turks, Iraqis since the 1st century etc.,) their faith was the only criteria. In fact, over 500,000 of them (Karamanlides) did not speak a word in Greek, as they were Turks.

    ******This is not to demean anyone, it’s to point out the stupidity of Greece’s ‘purity’ argument.********

    Greece is built on lies basically, everyone knows their origins but hates to admit it. Despite the official line, Arvanitis and Vlachos are dirty words in Greece, that’s why they try to be more ‘Greek’ than the rest.

    Greece needs immigrants, the problem is that as soon as Albania gets in EU, they will go to a real EU country, not stay at a bankrupt and xenophobic one. Once the EU $$ start flowing to Albania, they will come home. Nikos, the idea that in one generation they will be assimilated is wishful thinking, maybe speaking Albanian in the streets of Platos’ wannabe cousins is not seen as a good move?

  22. Greek prof:”
    This brings us to another important linguistic “subculture” the Greek Arvanites (Attica, Boetia, Euboea) and Arberesht (Peloponnese). Though no more than 100.000 were still some how using the dialect in the 1980’s a sudden inflow of half a million young Albanians, after 1990, has dramatically changed the linguistic landscape of the country. The Greek Arvanites through a rigid policy of monolingual education considered as the corner stone of national defense against a “communist” environment were progressively de-cultured and integrated into the Greek speaking society. This was facilitated by the proximity of Athens and of the other cities of Southern Greece and by the fact that since Independence (1830) they were always active in the power games of the Greek political scene. After the arrival of the Albanians, however the dialect was suddenly revived in the work place and as a mean of socializing with ethnic kin. At this date there are 500.000 people both indigenous and immigrants using Albanian dialects in Greece.
    Albanians are, however today in Greece, the nation’s villains. The media and the grass root feeling has developed such a negative image of the “Alvanos” and the criminality they generate that people consider it prudent to dissimulate their origin. In this context nothing is done to educate the children, sooner or later however provision for a bilingual education for the children of Albanian immigrants will have to be taken. This will progressively involve members of the Greek Arvanites communities, even if for the moment they cautiously distance themselves from the “less civilized” immigrants. Yet once again from a couple of villages, people listed Albanian in Brussels among Greece’s “less spoken languages”.

  23. My last post and if you are a ‘Greek’ please do not read it 🙂

    This is from a book of a Cambridge professor (see link) and how far modern Greeks go to hide the fact that Albanians and Slavic blood is in their veins:

    “While compiling my maps of village systems across the post-medieval
    centuries from the Ottoman sources (archives so remarkably discovered and
    tabulated for us by Machiel Kiel; see Kiel 1997; Bintliff 1995, 1997), I was
    careful to indicate in the English captions which of them were Albanianspeaking
    and which Greek-speaking villages. A strong supporter of the project,
    the Orthodox bishop of Livadhia, Hieronymus, watched over my shoulder as the
    maps took shape. “Very interesting,” he said, looking at the symbols for ethnicity,
    “but what you have written here is quite wrong. You see the people in
    Greece who speak a language like Albanian are Arvanites, not Alvanoi, and
    they speak Arvanitika not Alvanika.”
    In this seemingly innocuous, and of course technically correct, comment
    lies a much deeper layer of ideology, signified by the mere substitution of an “r”
    for an “1.” The bishop was voicing the accepted modern position among those
    Greeks who are well aware of the persistence of indigenous Albanian-speakers
    in the provinces of their country: the “Albanians” are not like us at all, they are
    ex-Communists from outside the modern Greek state who come here for work
    from their backward country; as for the Arvanites (traditional inhabitants of the
    Greek countryside speaking Albanian)—well, they are a kind of ethnic Greek
    population from somewhere on the northwest borders of Greece, where the line
    between the Greek state and that of Albania has always been fuzzy and permeable
    to intermarriage.
    Thus the difference between an “1” and an “r” neatly allows the modern
    Greeks to divorce themselves and their history from that of the unpopular but
    widely employed, modern Gastarbeiter of post-Communist Albania. Shortly
    after this conversation, I saw the bishop pass across the courtyard of our project
    base—a converted monastery run as a research center—to talk to the genuine
    Albanian guestworkers who were restoring its stonework. I knew he was himself
    an Arvanitis, and listened with interest as he chatted fluently to them—and it
    wasn’t in Greek! I was tempted, but wisely forbore, to ask him which language
    they were conversing in—Arvanitika or Alvanika? “

  24. Mirakulous, US crime rates are not that high. The difference is in reporting rates. I’ve read international crime surveys (no link, sorry) that say that the highest violent crime rates in the developed world are in Britain and Australia, and the US ranks in the middle. Most countries don’t publish their own crime surveys, but between the two that do, the US and the UK, the UK consistently has twice the crime rate of the US in every category except murder. Murder is unusually high in the US, due to the proliferation of guns, but other crime are not. Nor is the US crime rate skyrocketing: on the contrary, it’s been flat in the last ten years and plummeted in the previous ten. Look up the national murder rate statistics or the crime surveys.

    More on-topic: in the US is that illegal immigrants are no more criminal than the rest of the population, and possibly even less. I don’t know whether the same pattern is true in Greece, but the explanation among American sociologists is that immigrants are self-selected for qualities like hard work and respect for the law.

    Granted, Greece does everything in its power to criminalize many minorities, but that alone doesn’t create immigrant crime waves. So color me skeptical.

    P.S. the French notion of citizenship was for centuries jus soli, not jus sanguinis. France took a step backward around 2000 in order to harass Algerians, but second-generation immigrants are still entitled to citizenship at age 18 there, which is more than you could say for the rest of Continental Europe.

  25. @Alton Levy.
    Crime doesn’t just mean murder or violent crime. Crime means crime, breaking the law. 2 years ago the US became the country with the highest percentage of its population in prison (1%). I don’t know where you’ve read that US crime is lower than the UK, but by this measure its the highest in the world. Even as a total number of inmates only china has more than the US, but china has a population thats more than 4 times bigger, so thats understandable. Also, here in north america, it has now been a common knowledge stat for quite a few years that california by itself has more inmates than all of europe(that obviously includes the UK, and then some). So I don’t know what to tell you. Statistics ARE tricky, so maybe you’ve been misled. I dunno, but you did at one point say the UK has higher rates of violent crime in all categories, and then you said the US has a higher rate of murder. Murder is a violent crime no?! Either way, thats off topic….

    As for the French and citizenship, actually in Germany 2nd generation immigrants ALSO receive citizenship when they turn 18. I don’t know about other countries.

  26. alton levy is nearly right about France and naturalisation. We have flitted between various ideas about nationality over the centuries.

    The Civil Code of 1803 established family (ie jus sanguinis) as the basis of citizenship. By the end of the 19th C a sociological dimension was added: the return of jus soli (or naturalisation based on on being born and raised in France). After WW1 it became a demographic instrument. The country was so depopulated through the ravages of war that almost all immigrants were welcome. But, overall, the key was war: France wanted more “Frenchmen” for military service.

    Given that Greece is not at war (except Germany???) and that there are more pressing proiblems, I’m still wondering why Mr Papandreou has chosen this moment to launch this proposed legislation. President Sarkozy’s experience in launching a debate on the subject has backfired horrendously (for him).Douglas – any explanation?

  27. “why Mr Papandreou has chosen this moment to launch this proposed legislation.”

    Greece is getting older, their birthrates are at 1.2 or about 0.9 kids per couple less than needed. With $500+ billion in debt, they need workers

  28. Ajay wonders:

    I must say, I’m completely amazed that a post about Greece, Muslims, Balkan languages and immigration should attract so many angry comments.

    I’m not the slightest amazed. When the tags include “Muslims” and “immigration” in the same package, the usual suspects are guaranteed to go apeshit.

    Throw in the Balkans, and Greece in particular, and you’ll get an instant fusion reaction of two strange attractors.

    … actually, relatively speaking, this thread is a lot tamer than one would think.

    Cheers,

    J. J.

  29. French Derek wonders:

    Given that Greece is not at war (except Germany???) and that there are more pressing proiblems, I’m still wondering why Mr Papandreou has chosen this moment to launch this proposed legislation.

    Completely cynical explanation: more votes.

    Cheers,

    J. J.

  30. Who’s Alton?

    Mirakulous: yes, the US puts the largest percentage of its population in prison. However, this comes from higher arrest rates and longer sentences, not larger crime rates. Throwing nonviolent drug offenders into jail for life doesn’t increase the crime rate.

    If you want to look at the evidence, look up “National Crime Victimization Survey” and “British Crime Survey”: both surveys account for both reported and unreported crime, and should be considered first-rate statistics of national crime rates. It turns out the US has about half of Britain’s rate of violent as well as property crime, extending across every category except murder. Murder’s not surveyed because a) it’s universally reported, and b) you can’t call people up and ask whether they’ve been murdered in the past year, but you can call and ask about anything else.

    Germany has moved in the direction of jus soli, yes. It came from the realization that it was stupid to give citizenship to third-generation German-Americans who speak no German, while denying it to third-generation Turkish-Germans who speak only German. But that’s a recent development – the reforms were only made in 2000.

    French Derek: you’re right about French history – sorry. But I’ll add one more reason France was aggressive about jus soli after WW1: it not only depopulated in the war, but also had low natural growth rates in the industrial revolution.

  31. @Alon…that was a typo before. sorry.
    I don’t see why you must separate violent crime from other crime. Point is when someone is put in prison, he/she has broken the law, and thats a crime. That’s all that matters. Of these people breaking the law the US has 1% of the population. This COULD be cuz its laws are tough, but thats not likely being that it follows either the civil code or common law (depending on individual states); so its laws arent that different than other western democracies. That’s what im saying. You’re saying something totally different which is also correct in its own right. That’s fine.

  32. Jussi Jalonen
    I’m not the slightest amazed. When the tags include “Muslims” and “immigration” in the same package, the usual suspects are guaranteed to go apeshit.

    Throw in the Balkans, and Greece in particular, and you’ll get an instant fusion reaction of two strange attractors.

    I wonder ,is there any european country where muslim immigration has actually been successfull?In Britain and Spain 3rd generation immigrants started blowin up trains.In Denmark you draw a cartoon and you’ll be livin the rest of your life with the fear of some Somali nut attacking you in your house with a knife.Same goes for Netherlands(see Wilders,Van Gogh etc).Switzerland dared banning minarets(oh the horror) and now Islamic Leaders threaten them with Jihad.

    I don’t want to see similar things happen in my country,if that makes me a biggot and a racist be it so.And yes i understand that the majority of muslim immigrants just want to work and make a nice living etc,but if just one out of 100 turns out to be a religious extremist then franky it isn’t worth the trouble.

  33. K-Rose proves my prediction of the usual suspects correct:

    I wonder ,is there any european country where muslim immigration has actually been successfull?

    Define “Muslim immigration”. The proverbial Indonesian IT-engineer doesn’t have the first damn thing in common with a Somali refugee.

    As for historical examples, the Finnish Tatars arrived in this country as immigrants back in the time of the Russian rule, and they’ve been pretty damn succesful.

    Switzerland dared banning minarets(oh the horror

    In a decision that was completely divorced from reality. Actually, Switzerland could be considered as a country which had absolutely no trouble with immigrants, but as usual, certain elements wanted to _produce_ trouble.

    if that makes me a biggot and a racist be it so

    Nah, it just makes you a complete wuss. But don’t worry, I totally get it; you’re one of those who went permanently catatonic from fear after that Muhammad-cartoon-backlash. I know your type already; after that, you’ve spent the past years trembling in your bed every night, keeping your feet tight under the blanket, so that the imaginary Taliban fighter under your bed wouldn’t grab your ankle.

    Hey, in this country, just like elsewhere in Europe, we have an actual political movement founded by socially challenged people such as you! Makes one proud to be Finnish – not.

    if just one out of 100 turns out to be a religious extremist then franky it isn’t worth the trouble.

    I feel for you, man. I have the same exact opinion when it comes to these “immigration critics”, some of whom have expressed their “constructive criticism” and their “justified fears towards radical Islam” by bombing asylum centers and assaulting Somali girls at railway platforms.

    Considering that the said xenophobic subculture has already produced not just one, but several out of that hundred, well, frankly, it’s not worth the trouble.

    But as I once said, this isn’t anything spectacular. Even if it gets out of hand, there’s nothing that a good spray of rubber bullets, water, tear gas, and an occasional good pounding with a nightstick wouldn’t solve.

    Cheers,

    J. J.

  34. Let’s add another example to the previous ones.I don’t want to shop in a super market and get shot by some whacko Kosovar Muslim who felt dishonored by his girlfriend.

    Cheers

  35. No but there are always be homegrown criminals in each country.What’s the point of importing more in the name of “multi culturalism”?

  36. Point is that criminals don’t have a nationality or place of origin.You import some because at the same time you import engineers, lawyers, doctors and manual labour workers as well at the same time. And you gain from the above, it follows that there will be a drawback cuz 0.5% of the “imports” will be bad. It’s a compromise. Are you gaining more than you’re losing from accepting immigrants? Your government seems to think so. Wouldve America been anything without “imports”?! I rest my case.

  37. K-Rose shows that she’s done her homework:

    I don’t want to shop in a super market and get shot by some whacko Kosovar Muslim who felt dishonored by his girlfriend.

    Exactly what I said; you’re a wuss. A firm believer that it’s possible to establish some kind of a state of _absolute security_.

    There are public shootings in this country every damn year, mostly committed by the natives. The fact is that you can’t prevent them with any firearms legislation, and you can’t prevent them even if you close the borders hermetically.

    Personally, I wouldn’t like to be involved in a traffic accident, but sadly, there are no guarantees.

    No but there are always be homegrown criminals in each country. What’s the point of importing more in the name of “multi culturalism”?

    The person you mentioned wasn’t “imported in the name of multiculturalism”, whatever that means, he arrived in this country as a refugee.

    On the other hand, you could make a case that this fellow was able to arrive in Finland as a result of one political ideal; the concept of Nordic cooperation, which includes free movement without passport between the Nordic countries.

    Incidentally, Mr. Christensen was not a Muslim. I don’t particularly like the idea of some convicted Danish rapist waltzing over the border and killing two police constables, but I’m not going to suggest restricting the movement of Danish citizens or abandoning the free movement between the Nordic countries because of it.

    Them’s the breaks. This is the World we’re living, and it’s always been full of risks.

    Cheers,

    J. J.

  38. “whacko Kosovar Muslim who felt dishonored by his girlfriend.”

    Just for the record — not that it will make a bit of difference, of course — Kosovars don’t much go in for that sort of thing. They’re not Saudis or Somalis or even Kurds.

    Prishtina in July, the skirts are nearly as short as in Belgrade. (And quite a bit shorter than in Budapest.)

    Doug M.

  39. @eni:
    About democracy. Citizens deciding about their own country is democracy; Someone else deciding on their behalf is not.
    Second, “referendum to imprison all immigrants”? wtf are you talking about? Greece is not a prison and
    nodoby is there by force.
    Third, Switzerland: I see, Switzerland is not a democracy either. Only Albania is a true democracy and respects human rights.
    Which has treated its own minorities in perfectly democratic ways involving kalashnikofs.
    “If you let emigrants drudge for almost 10 or 20 years in a country”
    The alternative which you surely propose is … shoot them on entry or let them drown. A true champ
    of human rights!
    “grant them almost no rights”? What rights are not granted? Access to the health system, education,
    courts… No voting rights, but no obligations either that come with citizenship(such as compulsury
    military service). Why is voting in a country where you are not a citizen a human right? If so, I also lived for over 10
    years in the US and did not get voting rights. So I presume the US is also “a prison where human rights and rule of law
    are just on paper”.
    “They have nowhere else to go”.
    Hey, nobody is keeping anyone by force. If you do not like the rules, one can always go back or
    better yet, emigrate to a more tolerant country which will accept you with open arms,
    like Albania.

  40. @miraculous:
    “As for your massacres, I was talking about massacres by greeks and not just in greece, so you probably entered the wrong search. It’s okay, I know you’re playing stupid.
    I was talking about the massacres carried out by zervas, such as this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Cham_Albanians
    Who is playing stupid should be clear. Read again my prvious post, “#11 Paramythia excecutions” involved your nazi Cham scum, and not as victims.
    You wrote
    “A kosovo case could’ve happened in greece as well with chameria, but the greek government took care of that, exactly for fear of this happening.”
    So you are saying that the greek government(which did not exist during the war) arranged for the german invasion and WWII, as well as forced poor Chams to support the Nazis and commit massacres against the greek population, so that it could get rid of Chams as a result of the actions of partizan forces! Great theory!

  41. @miraculous:
    ““In any case, if there is a problem, you will not be asked to solve it”
    And neither will you.”
    Yes, I will. I actually live there. Everything that happens is my problem

    “First of all, I always enjoy when greeks show their real xenophobic faces online(some EU peoples eh?!), and it amuses me.”
    What is xenophobic about not wishing to live in an islamic country? If I wanted that, I’d move to Tehran! Lots of people gave their lives for freedom in this land, I see no reason to surrender our freedoms.

    “Second, if 5 million people moved to greece, mulsim or otherwise you’ll have some other serious problems buddy. A country of 11 million, would turn to anarchy(not that it hasn’t shown signs of it in the past couple years) if it got another 5 million people added to the mix.So religion would be your last concern if this happened”
    How many people have emmigrated to the US or Canada? Has it turned to anarchy?

    “Greece is thinking about humanitarianism of its immigrants? NO WAY! I would’ve never believed this unless i heard it from you.”
    No, it’s because we wantto exploit the Pakistanis who wash your car window 10 times while you wait for the light and the african immigrants who sell copied dvds! Both give the economy a tremendous boost!

    “Seems to me that something that is illegal should be ceased immediately.Otherwise the greek government is perpetuating with full knowledge something that is illegal.Now this wouldn’t the first time that happens though, eh?!”
    Not sure what you refer to, but I’m all ears for suggestions like I wrote to eni. Shoot them, let them drown or what?

    “TIME is not the ultimate judge on anything.It’s a much better judge than some guy on a blog online though.”
    Who talks about some guy on the blog? The issue is that TIME, which is a business, knows best what is good for Switzerland than its own voters. Maybe they should elect TIME to run the country…

    “And yes citizenship is not a right, it’s a privilege.It’s a privilege that many reasonable people would say thousands in greece have earned through decades of hard work and following the law; but you’d have to be reasonable for that.”
    Agreed. I’m all for that. Except with the proposed law, it’s a right and not a privilege anymore and applies even to people who have not worked hard and followed the law-in fact it applies to criminals as well.
    ” No xenophobe who has nightmares about sharia law would be able to see that clearly.”
    Look, just like I would not want to import and naturalize 5 million nazis, in exactly the same way I do not want to import and naturalize 5 million islamic nazis(the dominant form of nazism today). Xenophobe relates to origin, with what most greeks have no problem with. Nazi refers to what one has on their heads, not origin. So your comment makes no sense at all.

    And another thing: There is a BIG difference between recognizing a risk and taking steps to mitigate it(such as not giving citizenship to nazis, islamic or otehrwise) and ignoring the risk.

    “For them even with its faults greece was better than going almost to the north pole.”
    This is all about choices made by adults. You weigh the plus and minuses, make your choices and stop bitching about how life is not as you wished.(And actually Albanians in Greece are fairly well off, despite the idiotic and inflammatory comments by Anono).

  42. I’m not discussing theories, just history.
    I don’t understand why you love to refer to “my nazi cham scum”. Why do you sink so low as to say stuff like this, is beyond me; or maybe you’re not sinking at all.
    And as I said before i was talking about real history, not just greek propagandist history.
    No i’m not saying the greek government(i’ll retract that). What did you call it a “partisan movement”? The partisan movement led by zervas carried out mass expulsion and genocide. History recognizes this. Doesn’t matter if greek politicians do or not. That’s the problem in the balkans; history gets politicized and the truth hidden quite often.
    Doug explained it quite well above; not all chams supported the germans first of all, and second of all why are you surprised that some did after the greek government expelled boatloads of them to turkey in 1923?? Or was that not the greek government again?! Every action has a reaction. This was their reaction.No surprises there. As for massacres, every side committed massacres in a war as huge as WWII, but quite definetely whatever the chams did, didn’t compare to what they suffered at the hands of your genocidal partisan maniacs. (do you like it when i refer to them that way?)

  43. On the discussion about the supermarket shooting, perhaps a relevant story:
    Back in 88, in the US presidential elections between Bush(the father) and Dukakis, Dukakis was leading by 20%; he lost the elections because of Willie Horton. This was a convict, released for a weekend as a result of a furlough program that was running in Massachussets(where Mr. Dukakis was the governor), then broke in a house in Connecticut and held a couple hostage(I will not give the gory details here). Americans did not care whether statistics showed that with the furlough program better re-integration rates for convicts were achieved. They punished the one they saw as neglecting their safety. Whether that makes them wusses or not, I do not know. What I do know is that extremist rise to power only when moderates fail to solve people’s problems.

  44. “Yes, I will. I actually live there. Everything that happens is my problem”

    Yea I’m sure you will. Papandreu might just call you tonight to ask your opinion.

    “How many people have emmigrated to the US or Canada? Has it turned to anarchy?”

    You do realize that 5 out of 11 is 45% right? 45% of the population in immigrants has not moved to canada or the US at the same time, or even within 1 or 2 decades ever. Like I said, if such a thing would happen all of a sudden to greece, or any country, religion wouldn’t be the primary problem. If the population of the US increased by 45% in a short period of time, you don’t think there would be problems???

    “Not sure what you refer to, but I’m all ears for suggestions like I wrote to eni. Shoot them, let them drown or what?”

    Ive mentioned them a few times but you seem to have skipped over them due to lack of an answer. Since theyre illegals and they do nothing to the greek economy(all they apparently do is wash cars and copy dvds) send them back. Thats the proper path to take with illegals. Deport them all.There is no other way.A law is broken, the punishment must be served. Right?

    “Maybe they should elect TIME to run the country…”
    Actually, I think they’re nominating you!

  45. @miraculous:
    For the record, I consider all nazi collaborators, scum, and I can feel no remorse about anything the partizans did to them. The crux of the matter is that lots of bad things happened during WWII. Partizan forces did not have courts,as they are not an organized state. This is why I insisted on the government role. Had there been a government, there would have been a case for prosecuting people engaged in indiscriminate killing, but in fact during WWII, much worse things happened, such as partisan forces fighting each other. This is a stain. Furthermore, after WWII, military courts routinely sentenced to death people just because of their political affiliations. In the Cham case, I a perfactly aware that there were also Chams in the ELAS partizan army, but EDES was strongest in the region. So if your point is that innocent civilians were also hurt or killed, no doubt about that, but that is the nature of war. But many of those killed or who managed to flee deserved what they got.
    What I am strongly opposed is the mud-slinging and trying to paint Greece involved in genocides that never happened(I would not have had a problem if it was true). First, this was not Greece, second, it was not genocide and third, it was not perpetrated against a completely innocent population as a result of some master plan. And I do not recall Albania trying any Chams for their role in WWII with the nazis or the massacres they commited in Greece, including the Paramythia excecutions.

  46. “Yes, I will. I actually live there. Everything that happens is my problem
    Yea I’m sure you will. Papandreu might just call you tonight to ask your opinion.”

    No, he will send me the bill and draft me if it comes to this

    “How many people have emmigrated to the US or Canada? Has it turned to anarchy?
    You do realize that 5 out of 11 is 45% right? 45% of the population in immigrants has not moved to canada or the US at the same time, or even within 1 or 2 decades ever.”
    Exactly my point. So keep quotas, integrate/assimilate them before accepting new ones.

    “Like I said, if such a thing would happen all of a sudden to greece, or any country, religion wouldn’t be the primary problem. If the population of the US increased by 45% in a short period of time, you don’t think there would be problems???”
    Only if there were enough jobs. Religion could be an additional problem, even if there were enough jobs. Like I said, you need time to integrate only those that can/want to be integrated. But the country, not the newcomers set the rules. This is also the case in Canada.

    “Ive mentioned them a few times but you seem to have skipped over them due to lack of an answer. Since theyre illegals and they do nothing to the greek economy(all they apparently do is wash cars and copy dvds) send them back. Thats the proper path to take with illegals. Deport them all.There is no other way.A law is broken, the punishment must be served. Right?”
    BUt here come those who will say: These are poor people coming from countries ravaged by war and all sorts of evils. have a heart, give them a chance! I believe in giving people a chance, but not a guarantee(just like in the US or Canada)

    “Maybe they should elect TIME to run the country…Actually, I think they’re nominating you!”
    Funny, I did not apply and unlike time, I do not consider the Swiss morons unfit to run their country

  47. “For the record, I consider all nazi collaborators, scum, and I can feel no remorse about anything the partizans did to them.”

    For the record, again, not all were collaborators. So you just dont have remorse period. Second of all, the issue was why you called them mine.

    “But many of those killed or who managed to flee deserved what they got.”
    You clearly don’t understand the concept of collective punishment. If 1 greek does something, then everyone should be killed you’re saying. Right? Don’t think “many” women and children really deserved what they got; but hey you just have a different brand of justice from me, thats all.

    “First, this was not Greece, second, it was not genocide and third, it was not perpetrated against a completely innocent population as a result of some master plan.”
    This statement is full of contradiction. If first it wasn’t greece, then why do you feel the need to defend that it wasnt genocide? If it wasnt greece, then you shouldn’t care what its labelled. Disconnect there from what you’re saying and showing. If it wasnt greece, as official government, then the third point that it was perpetuated on guilty people should not be there because if you’re not an official government then you can’t institute punishment, on guilty or not guilty people. You said it yourself that no courts were open and trials happened.So how do you know that they werent completely innocent?! YOU DON’T, by your own words. So totally contradictory there on those 3 statements.

    “I do not recall Albania trying any Chams for their role in WWII with the nazis or the massacres they commited in Greece”

    History doesn’t recall greece even recognizing what zervas did to albanians and their expulsion from their native land! The greek government should have no problem admitting this because he didn’t represent the government; so no point in covering for him.
    If that game was to be played, pandoras box would open.

  48. “Exactly my point. So keep quotas, integrate/assimilate them before accepting new ones.”

    YEA exactly MY point actually! If you have a lot of people coming in at the same time, it doesnt matter what religion they are because they won’t be easily integrated no matter what.This was because your fear is of 5 million muslims. 5 million catholics would create a problem in a country of 11 million as well. This is what i’m saying to you.

    “BUt here come those who will say: These are poor people coming from countries ravaged by war and all sorts of evils. have a heart, give them a chance! I believe in giving people a chance, but not a guarantee(just like in the US or Canada)”

    Interesting. I would’ve thought you would’ve believed in the law more than giving chances, being as your constantly mentioned the word “illegal” in your previous posts. I dont know if you’re aware but illegal is the opposite of legal. If you’re against illegal, you should probably start believing in legal. If you do, then maybe you should be for making those people legals, as opposed to keeping them as illegals. Just a thought. These are the only 2 ways to get rid of an issue that is illegal; legalize it or get rid of it(send it back). Not complicated at all!

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