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	<title>Comments on: The new Tory party: desert for everybody</title>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-new-tory-party-desert-for-everybody/comment-page-1/#comment-31368</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 23:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=6492#comment-31368</guid>
		<description>&quot;I think your marginal tax rate example is cherry picking.&quot;
I do NOT. If I was cherry picking I could have chosen the areas where people are worse off getting a job, where the extra few pounds from working a few more hours costs them ten times as much in lost benefits (free prescriptions and spectacles). Anyone on tax credits has a marginal tax rate of 71%, the millions with a kid at university have an effective tax rate of 81%. Meanwhile bankers are threatening to leave the country if they have to pay 51% 

&quot;Finally, with respect to Thatcher, you seem to be shooting for something like my (3) above: the best ethos is the one that makes a nation richest.&quot;
Her comment about that was that the Good Samaritan could not have helped the traveller and paid the innkeeper if he had no money no oil and no wine. Being rich is not an end in itself.

The ethos of the west was better because we didn&#039;t have secret police, gulags, famines as a consequence of political doctrine, persecution of anyone who voiced disagreement with the government, etc. Yes that did have gradually increasing impacts on relative wealth, so the moral philosophy is a cause. 
Most people would argue that the freedom of choice is a major reason for the superior economic performance of the west as different people would try different ideas and the most successful one would get widely adopted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I think your marginal tax rate example is cherry picking.&#8221;<br />
I do NOT. If I was cherry picking I could have chosen the areas where people are worse off getting a job, where the extra few pounds from working a few more hours costs them ten times as much in lost benefits (free prescriptions and spectacles). Anyone on tax credits has a marginal tax rate of 71%, the millions with a kid at university have an effective tax rate of 81%. Meanwhile bankers are threatening to leave the country if they have to pay 51% </p>
<p>&#8220;Finally, with respect to Thatcher, you seem to be shooting for something like my (3) above: the best ethos is the one that makes a nation richest.&#8221;<br />
Her comment about that was that the Good Samaritan could not have helped the traveller and paid the innkeeper if he had no money no oil and no wine. Being rich is not an end in itself.</p>
<p>The ethos of the west was better because we didn&#8217;t have secret police, gulags, famines as a consequence of political doctrine, persecution of anyone who voiced disagreement with the government, etc. Yes that did have gradually increasing impacts on relative wealth, so the moral philosophy is a cause.<br />
Most people would argue that the freedom of choice is a major reason for the superior economic performance of the west as different people would try different ideas and the most successful one would get widely adopted.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-new-tory-party-desert-for-everybody/comment-page-1/#comment-31365</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 22:55:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=6492#comment-31365</guid>
		<description>&quot;However, the corollary to Cameron’s claim that New Labour’s policies are distinctive in having caused inequality is the claim that wealth inequality only began to rise under New Labour (after all, it’d be very odd to have an effect precede a cause). But the data doesn’t support this.&quot;

That is a complete Non sequitur.  You might as well say eating junk food cannot be blamed for making me fat because I was already a couple of kilograms overweight before I started eating junk food.

The share of national wealth owned by the bottom half of the population has fallen by more than two-thirds under New Labour. [It fell by two-thirds in the first six years and has roughly halved again]. 
This is not just them getting a smaller share of growth - under New Labour the poor have actually got poorer.

You comment that it is difficult to get data on wealth - it is a very big coincidence that HMRC stopped publishing data and then withdrew data previously published after I made a fuss about the poor getting poorer while the rich got richer</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;However, the corollary to Cameron’s claim that New Labour’s policies are distinctive in having caused inequality is the claim that wealth inequality only began to rise under New Labour (after all, it’d be very odd to have an effect precede a cause). But the data doesn’t support this.&#8221;</p>
<p>That is a complete Non sequitur.  You might as well say eating junk food cannot be blamed for making me fat because I was already a couple of kilograms overweight before I started eating junk food.</p>
<p>The share of national wealth owned by the bottom half of the population has fallen by more than two-thirds under New Labour. [It fell by two-thirds in the first six years and has roughly halved again].<br />
This is not just them getting a smaller share of growth &#8211; under New Labour the poor have actually got poorer.</p>
<p>You comment that it is difficult to get data on wealth &#8211; it is a very big coincidence that HMRC stopped publishing data and then withdrew data previously published after I made a fuss about the poor getting poorer while the rich got richer</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-new-tory-party-desert-for-everybody/comment-page-1/#comment-31362</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 22:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=6492#comment-31362</guid>
		<description>Harriet Harman&#039;s document looks at weekly wages without differing between those working ten hours during term-time as dinner ladies, those working twenty hours every week, civil servants working 35 hours 48 weeks a year less bank holidays and self-employed working sixty hours fifty weeks including bank holidays.
I did look at it when it came out but got very very irritated: it is a piece of propaganda with some doubtful - and some patently incorrect - numbers attached where they appear to support her argument.
The ONS published a &quot;Wealth and Assets&quot; survey late last year. There are some blatant distortions which ONS point out in the text where government departments had ordered them to omit the homeless, those in army barracks, student halls of residence or jail and they have excluded the value of private businesses. At least one of the tables clearly does not add up but after I had &#039;phoned EIGHT times and no-one except the switchboard operator had either picked up the &#039;phone or returned my call I gave up. However it is still a better guide than the &quot;Equality Report&quot; as you can work out an approximation to some of the answers if you have a fortnight to spare</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Harriet Harman&#8217;s document looks at weekly wages without differing between those working ten hours during term-time as dinner ladies, those working twenty hours every week, civil servants working 35 hours 48 weeks a year less bank holidays and self-employed working sixty hours fifty weeks including bank holidays.<br />
I did look at it when it came out but got very very irritated: it is a piece of propaganda with some doubtful &#8211; and some patently incorrect &#8211; numbers attached where they appear to support her argument.<br />
The ONS published a &#8220;Wealth and Assets&#8221; survey late last year. There are some blatant distortions which ONS point out in the text where government departments had ordered them to omit the homeless, those in army barracks, student halls of residence or jail and they have excluded the value of private businesses. At least one of the tables clearly does not add up but after I had &#8216;phoned EIGHT times and no-one except the switchboard operator had either picked up the &#8216;phone or returned my call I gave up. However it is still a better guide than the &#8220;Equality Report&#8221; as you can work out an approximation to some of the answers if you have a fortnight to spare</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-new-tory-party-desert-for-everybody/comment-page-1/#comment-31355</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 22:13:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=6492#comment-31355</guid>
		<description>Secondly, you reference a table from ONS. If you read the PDF document supplied therewith you will discover that while lower incomes were obtained by a reliable survey higher ones were taken from HMRC data on taxable incomes. &quot;Excellent! you may cry&quot; No, it invalidates the analysis. When Geoffrey Howe reduced higher rate tax from 98% to 60% tax receipts from higher rate taxpayers actually rose. Labour wants us to believe that their income rose 60% overnight - to which the only reasonable answer id &quot;pull the other ones, it&#039;s got bells on&quot;. Taxable income rose because most of the tax-avoidance schemes and the conversion of highly-taxed income into less highly-taxed capital gains became less attractive and unemployment among taxation advisers soared [I cannot remember anyone expressing sympathy]. 
The sharp reported increase in income at the top end in 1977-82 almost certainly includes *some* real increase but the large majority is due to choosing to pay tax instead of paying tax advisers. This took a couple of years to work through because some existing schemes involved a commitment for a year or more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Secondly, you reference a table from ONS. If you read the PDF document supplied therewith you will discover that while lower incomes were obtained by a reliable survey higher ones were taken from HMRC data on taxable incomes. &#8220;Excellent! you may cry&#8221; No, it invalidates the analysis. When Geoffrey Howe reduced higher rate tax from 98% to 60% tax receipts from higher rate taxpayers actually rose. Labour wants us to believe that their income rose 60% overnight &#8211; to which the only reasonable answer id &#8220;pull the other ones, it&#8217;s got bells on&#8221;. Taxable income rose because most of the tax-avoidance schemes and the conversion of highly-taxed income into less highly-taxed capital gains became less attractive and unemployment among taxation advisers soared [I cannot remember anyone expressing sympathy].<br />
The sharp reported increase in income at the top end in 1977-82 almost certainly includes *some* real increase but the large majority is due to choosing to pay tax instead of paying tax advisers. This took a couple of years to work through because some existing schemes involved a commitment for a year or more.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-new-tory-party-desert-for-everybody/comment-page-1/#comment-31351</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 21:56:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=6492#comment-31351</guid>
		<description>I shall now have to re-post again.
Right let&#039;s do one point at a time 
Firstly, I cannot give an url link to a table that has been removed from the HMRC website.  This is a copy

Marketable wealth (excluding value of dwellings) 
%age of wealth owned by	1976	1986	1996	1999	2000	2001	2002
Most wealthy 1%	29	25	26	34	33	34	37
Most wealthy 5%	47	46	49	59	59	58	62
Most wealthy 10%	57	58	63	72	73	72	74
Most wealthy 25%	73	75	81	87	89	88	87
Most wealthy 50%	88	89	94	97	98	98	98
Least wealthy 50%	12	11	6	3	2	2	2
							
HM Revenue and Customs	

You might like to read Chris Giles&#039; article in today&#039;s FT - no url for print version but if you don&#039;t want to spend £2 you can read it in a public library. If you subscribe to ft.com you can find it but FT is fussy about copyright.
He says pay inequality has risen under New Labour, citing bankers but failing to mention MPs and senior civil servants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I shall now have to re-post again.<br />
Right let&#8217;s do one point at a time<br />
Firstly, I cannot give an url link to a table that has been removed from the HMRC website.  This is a copy</p>
<p>Marketable wealth (excluding value of dwellings)<br />
%age of wealth owned by	1976	1986	1996	1999	2000	2001	2002<br />
Most wealthy 1%	29	25	26	34	33	34	37<br />
Most wealthy 5%	47	46	49	59	59	58	62<br />
Most wealthy 10%	57	58	63	72	73	72	74<br />
Most wealthy 25%	73	75	81	87	89	88	87<br />
Most wealthy 50%	88	89	94	97	98	98	98<br />
Least wealthy 50%	12	11	6	3	2	2	2</p>
<p>HM Revenue and Customs	</p>
<p>You might like to read Chris Giles&#8217; article in today&#8217;s FT &#8211; no url for print version but if you don&#8217;t want to spend £2 you can read it in a public library. If you subscribe to ft.com you can find it but FT is fussy about copyright.<br />
He says pay inequality has risen under New Labour, citing bankers but failing to mention MPs and senior civil servants.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie Whitaker</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-new-tory-party-desert-for-everybody/comment-page-1/#comment-31093</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie Whitaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Apr 2010 18:47:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=6492#comment-31093</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;you ought to check your data before making easily refutable comments.&lt;/i&gt;

Easily refutable, except it seems that you&#039;re not going to throw us a usable citation or two. I perhaps should have been clearer to distinguish between &#039;wealth&#039; and income&#039;; even so, either way, I think the data supports my argument. 

First, income inequality had its biggest increase in the 1980s, as &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=332&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this document from the National Statistics Office shows&lt;/a&gt;.

Information on wealth inequality is harder to come by, but &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.equalities.gov.uk/pdf/NEP%20Report%20bookmarkedfinal.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this publication&lt;/a&gt; (from the Government Equalities Office) sets out some data (figure 2.20). I think a reasonable interpretation is that wealth inequality began to rise towards the end of the Thatcher administration and continued under Major into the New Labour years. There&#039;s no data for 2004 onwards here.

However, the corollary to Cameron&#039;s claim that New Labour&#039;s policies are distinctive in having &lt;i&gt;caused&lt;/i&gt; inequality is the claim that wealth inequality &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; began to rise under New Labour (after  all, it&#039;d be very odd to have an effect precede a cause). But the data doesn&#039;t support this.

I think your marginal tax rate example is cherry picking.

Finally, with respect to Thatcher, you seem to be shooting for something like my (3) above: the best ethos is the one that makes a nation richest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>you ought to check your data before making easily refutable comments.</i></p>
<p>Easily refutable, except it seems that you&#8217;re not going to throw us a usable citation or two. I perhaps should have been clearer to distinguish between &#8216;wealth&#8217; and income&#8217;; even so, either way, I think the data supports my argument. </p>
<p>First, income inequality had its biggest increase in the 1980s, as <a href="http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=332" rel="nofollow">this document from the National Statistics Office shows</a>.</p>
<p>Information on wealth inequality is harder to come by, but <a href="http://www.equalities.gov.uk/pdf/NEP%20Report%20bookmarkedfinal.pdf" rel="nofollow">this publication</a> (from the Government Equalities Office) sets out some data (figure 2.20). I think a reasonable interpretation is that wealth inequality began to rise towards the end of the Thatcher administration and continued under Major into the New Labour years. There&#8217;s no data for 2004 onwards here.</p>
<p>However, the corollary to Cameron&#8217;s claim that New Labour&#8217;s policies are distinctive in having <i>caused</i> inequality is the claim that wealth inequality <i>only</i> began to rise under New Labour (after  all, it&#8217;d be very odd to have an effect precede a cause). But the data doesn&#8217;t support this.</p>
<p>I think your marginal tax rate example is cherry picking.</p>
<p>Finally, with respect to Thatcher, you seem to be shooting for something like my (3) above: the best ethos is the one that makes a nation richest.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-new-tory-party-desert-for-everybody/comment-page-1/#comment-27888</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 17:38:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=6492#comment-27888</guid>
		<description>Secondly you ought to check your data before making easily refutable comments. The Inland Revenue under Gordon Brown&#039;s control provided data showing that inequality of wealth had DECLINED under every Prime Minister from Churchill to Thatcher but had vastly increased under New Labour (the share of wealth owned by the bottom 50% had decreased by two-thirds under New Labour). [They have now stopped publishing the data]. Thirdly the FT hs in the past week published data showing that the pay gap between the top and the median has doubled in the last decade. 
One way to alleviate income and wealth differences would be to reduce the effective tax rate on the poor to below that on the rich instead of twice as high. Any couple receiving Child Tax Credit for their younger child while their older is at university have an effective marginal tax rate of 81% compared to the 40% paid by a Rothschild or the Duke of Westminster. Is this right, is this fair, is this good economics? NO
As to your footnote: Mrs Thatcher thought it right, morally as well as logically, that people should be rewarded for their efforts which is why she claimed that the west&#039;s system was morally superior to &quot;they pretend to pay us and we pretend to work&quot; [source: anonymous samizdat]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Secondly you ought to check your data before making easily refutable comments. The Inland Revenue under Gordon Brown&#8217;s control provided data showing that inequality of wealth had DECLINED under every Prime Minister from Churchill to Thatcher but had vastly increased under New Labour (the share of wealth owned by the bottom 50% had decreased by two-thirds under New Labour). [They have now stopped publishing the data]. Thirdly the FT hs in the past week published data showing that the pay gap between the top and the median has doubled in the last decade.<br />
One way to alleviate income and wealth differences would be to reduce the effective tax rate on the poor to below that on the rich instead of twice as high. Any couple receiving Child Tax Credit for their younger child while their older is at university have an effective marginal tax rate of 81% compared to the 40% paid by a Rothschild or the Duke of Westminster. Is this right, is this fair, is this good economics? NO<br />
As to your footnote: Mrs Thatcher thought it right, morally as well as logically, that people should be rewarded for their efforts which is why she claimed that the west&#8217;s system was morally superior to &#8220;they pretend to pay us and we pretend to work&#8221; [source: anonymous samizdat]</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-new-tory-party-desert-for-everybody/comment-page-1/#comment-27887</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 17:15:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=6492#comment-27887</guid>
		<description>Your spam protection is illiterate 2+7 = Nine
I am irritated that it has deleted the whole of my post as a side-effect</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your spam protection is illiterate 2+7 = Nine<br />
I am irritated that it has deleted the whole of my post as a side-effect</p>
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		<title>By: Johnny Pez</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-new-tory-party-desert-for-everybody/comment-page-1/#comment-27858</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnny Pez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 06:20:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=6492#comment-27858</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Even worse, Cameron conflates ’size of government’ with ‘amount of state spending’.&lt;/i&gt;

A little trick he seems to have picked up from American conservatives.  The idea is to keep insisting that &quot;money=size&quot; until the corollary &quot;less taxes=smaller government&quot; becomes conventional wisdom.  Then you can claim to be against big government while actually &lt;i&gt;expanding&lt;/i&gt; the size and reach of government because, hey, you&#039;ve cut taxes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Even worse, Cameron conflates ’size of government’ with ‘amount of state spending’.</i></p>
<p>A little trick he seems to have picked up from American conservatives.  The idea is to keep insisting that &#8220;money=size&#8221; until the corollary &#8220;less taxes=smaller government&#8221; becomes conventional wisdom.  Then you can claim to be against big government while actually <i>expanding</i> the size and reach of government because, hey, you&#8217;ve cut taxes.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Horner</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/the-new-tory-party-desert-for-everybody/comment-page-1/#comment-27793</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Horner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:46:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=6492#comment-27793</guid>
		<description>What a great post. It&#039;s certainly remarkable the way the entire discourse of our political masters or would-be masters has reduced to just a few terms, of which &#039;choice&#039; seems to be the market leader. I wonder how the warm &#039;communitarian&#039; stuff about mending broken Britain will fare in the face of the deeply embedded imperative to promote market individualism if they get into power?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a great post. It&#8217;s certainly remarkable the way the entire discourse of our political masters or would-be masters has reduced to just a few terms, of which &#8216;choice&#8217; seems to be the market leader. I wonder how the warm &#8216;communitarian&#8217; stuff about mending broken Britain will fare in the face of the deeply embedded imperative to promote market individualism if they get into power?</p>
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