Comments on: Miners http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/miners/ European Opinion Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:07:07 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: Marian Soare http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/miners/#comment-5964 Marian Soare Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:57:03 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=976#comment-5964 There is a very well done documentary about the 90' Bucharest University Square demonstration and the miners. It is called "Piata Universitatii" and was directed by Setere Gulea (a well know romanian film director). It ran in the cinemas one or two year later, and with a little research probably one can find videos with the movie somewere in Bucharest. It is a realy good movie. If anybody hear of a DVD release, please let other people know. It helps understand what have hapenned recently (or could have hapenned) in Kiev too. Marian Soare There is a very well done documentary about the 90′ Bucharest University Square demonstration and the miners. It is called “Piata Universitatii” and was directed by Setere Gulea (a well know romanian film director). It ran in the cinemas one or two year later, and with a little research probably one can find videos with the movie somewere in Bucharest. It is a realy good movie. If anybody hear of a DVD release, please let other people know. It helps understand what have hapenned recently (or could have hapenned) in Kiev too.

Marian Soare

]]> By: craig neudorf http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/miners/#comment-5963 craig neudorf Sun, 28 Nov 2004 08:55:43 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=976#comment-5963 I saw a map of the recent electoral results that showed provinces/states with about one half of Ukraines' population (basically the south and east, where mining, pipelines and heavy industry exist and many Russians are interspersed among the population)voting opposite the west ... if these regions vote as strongly for their "eastern" candidate as the northwest does for their "western" candidate, they could well elect the president in another vote. What will the result be then? Does the western Ukraine have a plan to placate the east if a western candidate wins? Do most of the southern and eastern provinces want to stay with the Ukraine if a western candidate wins? Or would Donetsk and Luhansk push for autonomy at all costs-and what states wouyld follow them? I saw a map of the recent electoral results that showed provinces/states with about one half of Ukraines’ population (basically the south and east, where mining, pipelines and heavy industry exist and many Russians are interspersed among the population)voting opposite the west … if these regions vote as strongly for their “eastern” candidate as the northwest does for their “western” candidate, they could well elect the president in another vote.

What will the result be then? Does the western Ukraine have a plan to placate the east if a western candidate wins? Do most of the southern and eastern provinces want to stay with the Ukraine if a western candidate wins? Or would Donetsk and Luhansk push for autonomy at all costs-and what states wouyld follow them?

]]> By: DoDo http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/miners/#comment-5962 DoDo Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:08:26 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=976#comment-5962 Frans, indeed. Bob, I read that according to newer research, the big Ukrainian starving wasn't started with genocidal intentions. What happened was that the Soviet agricultural reforms led to a big fall in produced volume, which in turn meant that to feed the Army, the government increased demands for wheat and meat to farmers still producing. But since these farmers had a hard time too, many refused or didn't give enough. Authorities then responded with forced requiration, which developed into bureaucratic insanity. Frans, indeed.

Bob, I read that according to newer research, the big Ukrainian starving wasn’t started with genocidal intentions. What happened was that the Soviet agricultural reforms led to a big fall in produced volume, which in turn meant that to feed the Army, the government increased demands for wheat and meat to farmers still producing. But since these farmers had a hard time too, many refused or didn’t give enough. Authorities then responded with forced requiration, which developed into bureaucratic insanity.

]]> By: Frans Groenendijk http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/miners/#comment-5961 Frans Groenendijk Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:10:57 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=976#comment-5961 Before I heart anything about the role of the Ukrain miners in the conflict I had a strange feeling about the question: do we know enough of the programs of both the candidates. I certainly did not myself but I read very little in the blogosphere or newspapers about it either, except for some very general remarks on being pro-west or pro-russia. Now when I read about the miners I think that a lot of people in Romania and Ukrain are familiaur with the name Scargill (for the younger readers: this was the miner union guy who stood up against Thatcher's plans to close down most of the GB mines (and lost)). An overnight transformation to a completely free market system most probably means closing down of most of the mines. If Yushenko is not clear about the future of the miners this could be a serious source for "opposition" against his opposition. Before I heart anything about the role of the Ukrain miners in the conflict I had a strange feeling about the question: do we know enough of the programs of both the candidates. I certainly did not myself but I read very little in the blogosphere or newspapers about it either, except for some very general remarks on being pro-west or pro-russia.
Now when I read about the miners I think that a lot of people in Romania and Ukrain are familiaur with the name Scargill (for the younger readers: this was the miner union guy who stood up against Thatcher’s plans to close down most of the GB mines (and lost)).
An overnight transformation to a completely free market system most probably means closing down of most of the mines. If Yushenko is not clear about the future of the miners this could be a serious source for “opposition” against his opposition.

]]> By: Dragos http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/miners/#comment-5960 Dragos Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:40:02 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=976#comment-5960 The sequel to those two events Doug is mentioning is another round of miners heading to Bucharest in January 1999 as a result of restructuring economic measures announced by the newly appointed government. It was a national emergency type of situation and the PM at that time - Radu Vasile - met the protesters at Cozia (a monastery 200 km away from Bucharest). Things cooled down afterwards and the good news is that some of the miners' leaders (Miron Cozma is one of them - the same leader as in 1990 and 1991) were trialed and sentenced for this. Word is in town that these days Iliescu wants to free MC - good behavior as an official reason and saving his a** back in 1990 and 1991 the unofficial. As for Ukrain - it is not as similar as in the Romanian case since in the Romanian case it was an internal affair between the ex-communistst and the rest. In Ukraine unfortunately my guess is that the big Russian brother has an important word to say. The sequel to those two events Doug is mentioning is another round of miners heading to Bucharest in January 1999 as a result of restructuring economic measures announced by the newly appointed government. It was a national emergency type of situation and the PM at that time - Radu Vasile - met the protesters at Cozia (a monastery 200 km away from Bucharest). Things cooled down afterwards and the good news is that some of the miners’ leaders (Miron Cozma is one of them - the same leader as in 1990 and 1991) were trialed and sentenced for this. Word is in town that these days Iliescu wants to free MC - good behavior as an official reason and saving his a** back in 1990 and 1991 the unofficial.

As for Ukrain - it is not as similar as in the Romanian case since in the Romanian case it was an internal affair between the ex-communistst and the rest. In Ukraine unfortunately my guess is that the big Russian brother has an important word to say.

]]> By: Bob http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/miners/#comment-5959 Bob Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:03:52 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=976#comment-5959 To understand some measure of the trumatic historic associations of recent events for Ukrainians, recall that on genocide, Stalin was Hitler's mentor, in scale and chronologically speaking: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM "A Man-Made Famine raged through Ukraine, the ethnic-Ukrainian region of northern Caucasus, and the lower Volga River region in 1932-33. This resulted in the death of between 7 to 10 million people, mainly Ukrainians. This was instigated by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin and his henchman Lazar Kaganovich. The main goal of this artificial famine was to break the spirit of the Ukrainian farmer/peasant and to force them into collectivization. The famine was also used as an effective tool to break the renaissance of Ukrainian culture that was occuring under approval of the communist government in Ukraine. Moscow perceived this as a threat to a Russo-Centric Soviet rule and therefore acted to crush this cultural renaissance in a most brutal manner. . " - from: http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/ Stalin set out the Soviet policy for category killing in a speech on Agrarian Policy made on 27 December 1929, which contained that infamous commitment: " . . we must smash the kulaks, eliminate them as a class. . . " - from: http://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/111stalin.html Btw Stalin had no reservations about signing up to a Friendship Treaty with Nazi Germany on 28 September 1939, when Britain and France were already at war - see Norman Davies: Europe (OUP 1996) p.1001. Last year, Ukrainian exile communities in many places around the world commemorated the anniversary of the terrible famine of 1932/3: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3229000.stm Stalin has been moulding in his grave since March 1953 but his soul goes marching on . . To understand some measure of the trumatic historic associations of recent events for Ukrainians, recall that on genocide, Stalin was Hitler’s mentor, in scale and chronologically speaking: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

“A Man-Made Famine raged through Ukraine, the ethnic-Ukrainian region of northern Caucasus, and the lower Volga River region in 1932-33. This resulted in the death of between 7 to 10 million people, mainly Ukrainians. This was instigated by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin and his henchman Lazar Kaganovich. The main goal of this artificial famine was to break the spirit of the Ukrainian farmer/peasant and to force them into collectivization. The famine was also used as an effective tool to break the renaissance of Ukrainian culture that was occuring under approval of the communist government in Ukraine. Moscow perceived this as a threat to a Russo-Centric Soviet rule and therefore acted to crush this cultural renaissance in a most brutal manner. . ” - from: http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/

Stalin set out the Soviet policy for category killing in a speech on Agrarian Policy made on 27 December 1929, which contained that infamous commitment: ” . . we must smash the kulaks, eliminate them as a class. . . ” - from: http://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/111stalin.html

Btw Stalin had no reservations about signing up to a Friendship Treaty with Nazi Germany on 28 September 1939, when Britain and France were already at war - see Norman Davies: Europe (OUP 1996) p.1001.

Last year, Ukrainian exile communities in many places around the world commemorated the anniversary of the terrible famine of 1932/3: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3229000.stm

Stalin has been moulding in his grave since March 1953 but his soul goes marching on . .

]]> By: Simon http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/miners/#comment-5958 Simon Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:30:13 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=976#comment-5958 Indded. I'd like to add my thanks for your important work on this topic. Indded. I’d like to add my thanks for your important work on this topic.

]]> By: eulogist http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/miners/#comment-5957 eulogist Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:02:14 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=976#comment-5957 Funny, I had the same association: that those miners reminded me of what happened in Romania. But I had forgotten about the details, and had not realised the resemblance was so strong. Thanks for this update! Funny, I had the same association: that those miners reminded me of what happened in Romania. But I had forgotten about the details, and had not realised the resemblance was so strong. Thanks for this update!

]]> By: Chris Kav http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/miners/#comment-5956 Chris Kav Thu, 25 Nov 2004 18:53:06 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=976#comment-5956 I never knew anything about that: thankyou, and for all of this excellent coverage. I never knew anything about that: thankyou, and for all of this excellent coverage.

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