Comments on: Go directly to jail, do not pass go… http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/go-directly-to-jail-do-not-pass-go/ European Opinion Sat, 30 Aug 2008 07:08:21 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Oliver http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/go-directly-to-jail-do-not-pass-go/#comment-6789 Oliver Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:14:02 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1083#comment-6789 People are, indeed, fallible. Which is why presidents shouldn't make such decisions. At least judges are (a) professionally impartial, (b) not in need of campaign funds or votes and (c) often come in threes or fives. Better to fix the process than institute a fudge. (a) Judges see everything through the professional legal lens. That is what want to avoid in issuing pardons. Pardons are used to factor in extralegal factors. (b) Judges have to be appointed somehow. (c) A council may be better than a single individual, but too often such comitees degenerate into political horse-trading. (d) There is no such thing as a perfect system. You will end up with a contradictory system that tries to please everyone and ends up pleasing nobody. The amount of complexity in a working system is limited. People are, indeed, fallible. Which is why presidents shouldn’t make such decisions. At least judges are (a) professionally impartial, (b) not in need of campaign funds or votes and (c) often come in threes or fives. Better to fix the process than institute a fudge.

(a) Judges see everything through the professional legal lens. That is what want to avoid in issuing pardons. Pardons are used to factor in extralegal factors.

(b) Judges have to be appointed somehow.

(c) A council may be better than a single individual, but too often such comitees degenerate into political horse-trading.

(d) There is no such thing as a perfect system. You will end up with a contradictory system that tries to please everyone and ends up pleasing nobody. The amount of complexity in a working system is limited.

]]> By: craig neudorf http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/go-directly-to-jail-do-not-pass-go/#comment-6788 craig neudorf Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:38:43 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1083#comment-6788 Processes normally require administration, and trade-offs, and arbitrary decisions by less than 'always fair' individuals. Pardons go above processes. Maybe a council of judges could look at every judgement, and rule a pardon or some other alleviating decree in every case it had reasonable doubt or saw unusual circumstances. I do not think, even for a minute, that courts in North America (I cannot speak for Europe-probably is much the same?)have as their ultimate goal justice ... every judgement is therefore questionable and I for one would love to see some omnipotent person or tribunal (with good credentials) reduce every sentence it wished or cared to. I am very serious about this statement. My seriousness is shown by this following statement; I would love to see North American justice and penal systems bulldozed into a crater, and reconstructed, afresh, by ordinary citizens without archaic beliefs and without personal economic interest in how the systems were constructed. Processes normally require administration, and trade-offs, and arbitrary decisions by less than ‘always fair’ individuals.

Pardons go above processes. Maybe a council of judges could look at every judgement, and rule a pardon or some other alleviating decree in every case it had reasonable doubt or saw unusual circumstances. I do not think, even for a minute, that courts in North America (I cannot speak for Europe-probably is much the same?)have as their ultimate goal justice … every judgement is therefore questionable and I for one would love to see some omnipotent person or tribunal (with good credentials) reduce every sentence it wished or cared to.

I am very serious about this statement. My seriousness is shown by this following statement; I would love to see North American justice and penal systems bulldozed into a crater, and reconstructed, afresh, by ordinary citizens without archaic beliefs and without personal economic interest in how the systems were constructed.

]]> By: Michael D http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/go-directly-to-jail-do-not-pass-go/#comment-6787 Michael D Tue, 21 Dec 2004 03:59:02 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1083#comment-6787 People are fallible. Ergo, there needs to be a way to fix human mistakes. Mrs T shows how it can and should be done in "Torture..." People are, indeed, fallible. Which is why presidents shouldn't make such decisions. At least judges are (a) professionally impartial, (b) not in need of campaign funds or votes and (c) often come in threes or fives. Better to fix the process than institute a fudge. People are fallible. Ergo, there needs to be a way to fix human mistakes.

Mrs T shows how it can and should be done in “Torture…”

People are, indeed, fallible. Which is why presidents shouldn’t make such decisions. At least judges are (a) professionally impartial, (b) not in need of campaign funds or votes and (c) often come in threes or fives. Better to fix the process than institute a fudge.

]]> By: Penta http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/go-directly-to-jail-do-not-pass-go/#comment-6786 Penta Mon, 20 Dec 2004 01:53:25 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1083#comment-6786 Pardons need to exist. People are fallible. Ergo, there needs to be a way to fix human mistakes. Pardons need to exist.

People are fallible. Ergo, there needs to be a way to fix human mistakes.

]]> By: David http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/go-directly-to-jail-do-not-pass-go/#comment-6785 David Sun, 19 Dec 2004 23:50:48 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1083#comment-6785 I meant "still being judged". I meant “still being judged”.

]]> By: David http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/go-directly-to-jail-do-not-pass-go/#comment-6784 David Sun, 19 Dec 2004 23:49:46 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1083#comment-6784 By the way, Miron Cozma was only jailed for the 90-91 incidents. He's still being jailed for the 99 incident and he'll most likely end up in jail again. By the way, Miron Cozma was only jailed for the 90-91 incidents. He’s still being jailed for the 99 incident and he’ll most likely end up in jail again.

]]> By: Oliver http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/go-directly-to-jail-do-not-pass-go/#comment-6783 Oliver Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:33:50 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1083#comment-6783 The way I see it, perhaps one criterion of EU entry should be that pardons shouldn't exist. Hence expelling all present members? Seriously, there must be a way to fix mistakes. At some point even the best of systems cannot replace sound judgement. Apart from reducing the pressure to fix those less than perfect systems That would mean to sacrifice the individual affected for the common good. Morally speaking arbitrarely singling out an individual to pay for sins of the community is unacceptable. The way I see it, perhaps one criterion of EU entry should be that pardons shouldn’t exist.

Hence expelling all present members?
Seriously, there must be a way to fix mistakes. At some point even the best of systems cannot replace sound judgement.

Apart from reducing the pressure to fix those less than perfect systems

That would mean to sacrifice the individual affected for the common good. Morally speaking arbitrarely singling out an individual to pay for sins of the community is unacceptable.

]]> By: Michael D. http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/go-directly-to-jail-do-not-pass-go/#comment-6782 Michael D. Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:05:12 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1083#comment-6782 The use of presidential pardons, originally a safety valve for imperfect judicial systems, does give rise to some perverse behaviour. Apart from reducing the pressure to fix those less than perfect systems it can encourage anti-social behaviour. A few years ago, French drivers would happily break every rule in the book at this time of year knowing full well that, should they get caught, the president would forgive all driving offences at new year. Why? Because there were too many outstanding offences to process. Perverse. I'm with the "pardons shouldn't exist" club. The use of presidential pardons, originally a safety valve for imperfect judicial systems, does give rise to some perverse behaviour. Apart from reducing the pressure to fix those less than perfect systems it can encourage anti-social behaviour. A few years ago, French drivers would happily break every rule in the book at this time of year knowing full well that, should they get caught, the president would forgive all driving offences at new year. Why? Because there were too many outstanding offences to process. Perverse.

I’m with the “pardons shouldn’t exist” club.

]]> By: TM Lutas http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/go-directly-to-jail-do-not-pass-go/#comment-6781 TM Lutas Sun, 19 Dec 2004 13:21:00 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1083#comment-6781 Pardons are final. That's the real kicker. In a year or two, the Romanian courts will rule that Iliescu acted illegally to jail Miron Cosma. He'll have his pardon reinstated. Iliescu will be able to say, "hey, if it were up to me, he'd be in jail right now" and laugh at the fools who believe him. All the believers in the rule of law will have to defend having Miron Cosma out on the streets, a very tough thing to do. Pardons are final. That’s the real kicker. In a year or two, the Romanian courts will rule that Iliescu acted illegally to jail Miron Cosma. He’ll have his pardon reinstated. Iliescu will be able to say, “hey, if it were up to me, he’d be in jail right now” and laugh at the fools who believe him. All the believers in the rule of law will have to defend having Miron Cosma out on the streets, a very tough thing to do.

]]> By: Aris Katsaris http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/governments-and-parties/go-directly-to-jail-do-not-pass-go/#comment-6780 Aris Katsaris Sat, 18 Dec 2004 22:32:20 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=1083#comment-6780 The way I see it, perhaps one criterion of EU entry should be that pardons shouldn't exist. The way I see it, perhaps one criterion of EU entry should be that pardons shouldn’t exist.

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