No man it is like take steps backward. Now,Do You imagine France, Italy breaking into parts like Alsacia, Provenza ? I told there is no administration decision for include more states or member. Spain is a EU member, Catalonia is not. CAtalonia does not exists like nation or country. If you leave then you should begin from zero in EU . 27 ? No please, you must wait your turn and there are other countries awaiting.

Europa is going to unify and you are the opposite force-.

Stop the indivualism and egoism. Please.

A more correct analogy is to ask how the Federal Government would or should feel if one county in one state talks about changes between that county and that state.

I don’t know much about counties: sometime in the last 10 or 15 years, my county changed its relationship to the state, but it was such a
small deal, I did not pay much attention. I do know, since I read it in a history last night, that the town next beyond the one just south
of me created itself by separating from what is now the town south of it.

Certainly, Europe should become a land of `regions’. It seems to be not only reasonable, but desirable that people speak in a native,
minority language with their neighbors, and also learn (as children, when it is easy) a language with which they can speak to visitors and which succeeds internationally.

It is unfortunate that the European Union lacks legitimacy. It is like the US before the American civil war. At that time, the only directly elected body was the Federal House of Representatives. Senators were appointed by states and the president was elected by the Electoral College.

Most current west European countries arose as `empires’ of one sort or another, small or big. Often they were `musket empires’. Winning governments, sometimes without intending it, spread a `received pronunciation’ over the territories they conquered. But they did not
destroy those they conquered as thoroughly as the United States destroyed its natives. Because of oceans, swamps, and mountain ranges, the European governments found that with the logistics of the
day, they could not conquer further than they did. (I think this is a major reason eastern China unified so long ago: few barriers to conquest by a pre-gunpowder military.)

Some areas lack natural barriers, like regions in the boundary between France and Germany. Over the past millenium, they were conquered and reconquered.

Christian Spain is a creation of the fight against the Moslem conquerors. I don’t think it was ever a union like Switzerland, although people speak of the union of Castile and Aragon.

Much of the discussion reminded me of American talk, as I understand it, from before the civil war: in 1860, people thought of themselves as `Virginian’ or `Yankee’. They did not think of themselves as being from the United States. Their loyalty was to their state or region, not to the federation. Besides putting down the rebellion, I’ve read historians say that President Lincoln changed how people thought.

Well Marc. I won’t get into opinions as we’ll never agree on such a thing, I’ll talk about data. When the Catalonian leader of pp said the new version of the estatut was something they could talk about, the central direction of his party disaproved his decision and forced him to change his version of the story. He was about to resign because of this. I simply wouldn’t say the pp has been excluded, I would say it has excluded itself, again. Zapatero cannot force pp to get into the negotiation table.

I simply cannot see how reducing the percentage of some taxes that will be sent to Madrid will break Spain.

Obviously, Antoni, you live here and know that this is true. So do I.

But Mr Aznar it seems hasn’t only been giving lectures in broken English at the University of Georgetown, he seems to have convinced a lot of people on the radical US right that Catalonia is a ‘nest of vipers’.

Since most of these people support Israel (as I do, but in a far less uncritical and ‘born gain’ tone), and since many of the people inside Spain call us the jews of Spain for the simple reason that many Catalans are conversos, while Aznar was for a long time an admirer and friend of Yasser Arafat, this becomes, quite simply, grotesque.

So the idea has been put about that the Catalans are on the point of declaring independence, and many people are so fanatical that they don’t even bother to check any facts.

I think the fact that the piece I link to appeared in an editorial in the NYT is an indication that this issue has now entered the US political battleground. Then those in Europe who identify with the radical US right - the ‘libertarians’ rather than the ‘neo-liberals’ (para entedender-nos) - pick up the argument through their inverted mirror, and decide, again with little knowledge of the facts, that Catalonia is about to break out of Spain.

Actually, if we follow this through, then the moderate European right - Merkel, Sarkozy, and Cameron - will probably soon come to the defence of Catalonia, so long run, in terms of EU politics, I think we only stand to win from this. So I am glad in a way.

However, looking at this from the perspective of a reasonable Spanish person like Demostoles, there are plenty of grounds for pre-occupation, since a future PP government with these associations would be well outside the European mainstream, and dependent on US support, dependent on US support with one of the most anti-Yankee popular mentalities among the general populace there is in Europe I would guess, and so it would be once more a re-run of the Iraq war thing. A merry-go-round which just keeps whizzing faster and faster.

Till, of course, finally, the housing boom crashes.

I don’t know if you saw this link.

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=011906I

This part is particularly ridiculous:

“The scandal associated with such fascist practices erupted when it became known that the linguistic commissioners of the “Oficines de Garanties Lingüístiques” had launched a pilot program in some hospitals to verify if the sanitary personnel speak Catalan among themselves and with patients, and if the documentation in these centers — including the clinical records — is also written in the Catalan language. Needless to say, this is a direct breach of personal privacy and depicts a coarse totalitarian paranoid behavior aimed at trying to use the language to brand, exclude and, if possible, eliminate the “anomalous individuals” who dare to speak the official language of the Spanish nation.”

This is the sort of nonsense that is being put about, and it seems it is being sworn to as gospel by every self respecting US neo-con.

The ‘totalitarian measure’ is of course simply a sociological survey on language use of the kind which has been carried out regularly at least since I came here in 1990.

Now as chance would have it my partner had to go to the Residencia Vall d’Hebron hospital this morning for a routine visit, and I accompanied her. Now Vicenta - although the daughter of Spanish speaking immigrants from Valencia - was born in Barcelona and normally speaks Catalan socially, when she isn’t speaking English with me. During the interview the doctor routinely spoke Spanish to us, since this is what she apparently does all the time (and we had no problem with that) since the majority of her patients are elderly Spanish speaking people.

At one stage another doctor entered the room, and the two doctors chatted away in Catalan. So I couldn’t resist explaining to her what a fuss this issue of language use in the Catalan health service was causing in the USA, and we all had a jolly good laugh.

Finally, on the connection between the Catalan thing and the Basque thing. I think Marc misses the point. If there is a good settlement to the Catalan Statute issue (and by good here I mean satisfactory to all sides: PSOE, CiU, ERC and IU - as you note, the PP playing dog in the manger have effectively excluded themselves), then this is the one thing which could help to keep the Basques inside Spain. If the Catalan’s with their modest proposal cannot advance, then I imagine we will see the ‘Plan Ibarretxe’ back on the table, and the possibility of a referendum on independence being held in Euskadi. In this sense I imagine the fanatics of Eta probably want the Catalan statute to fail too.

What I don’t understant is “[...]as the result of Catalunia’s independence will fight for independece (by terrorists) in Bask country.” I feel something is missing and I do not want to put the words for the author. Maybe he think that an independent Catalonia would help Basques against the rest of Spain. Since those wanting independence are a minority amongst Catalans “de la ceba”, I find such an hypothesis rather ludicrous.

DSW

“I do not understand what you are saying there.”

I think this is a reference to my constant and repeated references to Bavaria, which is, of course, asking to pay less.

So what?
” PSOE deliberately decided to negociate this treaty without PP (representing over 25% of Spanish people).”
That is a lie. It is the PP that has decided to exclude itself from every step. The PP did not want to negociate anything.

“Biggest mistake. The huge impact on Spain, obliges Zapatero to include all parties. I am a foreigner living in Spain, and what happens here is bad for the country.”

Still it is the PP that does all and everything it can to poison political life in Spain.

” This country has a unique history with regards to civil war, dictator, and terrorist attacks by fellow country people. I find it unreasonable to judge about democracy in Spain when you are not living in it.”

And even if living in it, it is only too easy to misunderstand if you apply prejudices from your own history.

“You cannot compare Germany in this, as the result of Catalunia’s independence will fight for independece (by terrorists) in Bask country.”

I do not understand what you are saying there.

” And don’t forget that the Catalan politicians want money from the Government however refuse to contribute to others or help others (isn’t this a social basis that PSOE stands for?). Zapatero is insulting Socialist ideas his party (should) stands for. I rest my case!”

The money they want is their own. Catalonia is not Extremadura. Why should Catalonia inhabitants have to pay more for everything, and so more taxes, to end up with less services. “La Vanguardia” published a letter where a chirurgian explained that for the same qualifications you get 3200 euro/month, with an horary from 9h to 15h, in Extremadura and 2500 euro/month, working from 9h to 17h, in Catalonia. And over all that been despised? Go get a life.

DSW

“All these: Basques, catalonia and more are people from the past. All countries of Europe are working for the Union and they are going in the opposite way. There is no place for this disccussion in the European Union, there is no place for divisions of the natural and actual borders based in history interpretation.”

I have every sympathy with all those Spanish people who say they don’t want Catalonia to leave Spain (in fact Catalonia is not thinking of doing so, Euskadi may be a quite different case, I don’t live there and I can’t comment). This is a sentimental question in many cases, as Ferran says he feels some part of him would be lost. I can understand this, even if I think there are two sides to the story.

But the European is moving towards a federation of states. I really don’t see how it matters a fig to the new Europe whether or not the people who make up Spain constitute one state or three. This is simply an admin decision - whether we have 25 units or 27 - the members of other EU states don’t have any *emotional* involvement in the unity of Spain.

Marc

“And don’t forget that the Catalan politicians want money from the Government however refuse to contribute to others or help others”

This I’m afraid is nonsense. Catalonia makes a contribution per capita to Spanish finances far above most other regions. This extra is distributed amongst the other autonomous communities. No-one here is against continuing to subsideise the rest of Spain, it is simply the extent of the subsidy that is in question. Catalonia argues that growth here is being reduced by the burden of all these extra payments (the Bavaria comporison in connection with the Lande of the former East Germany). Catalonia also has an ageing population, and needs hospitals, doctors and old people’s homes. Also with the massive immigartion it needs a lot more schools, and teachers who are trained and appropriate for the new multi-cultural environment.

The regional government also wants resources to expand the airport here, to get more direct inter-continental flights, so that it is easier for the businesses to do business.

Basically, if Ctalonia is paying (say) 60% more than the average they want this reducing to (say) 30% more than the average. That’s all. It isn’t so hard to understand.

Which is more egocentric, the French President saying he won’t do anything to dismantle the disastrous agricultural policy, the Italian prime minister say the ‘euro is a disaster for Italy’ and taking bugdetary decisions that put the whole eurosystem at risk, or the poor little Catalans, who simply say they want more say in their own affairs? Whatever happened to the principle of subsidiarity here.

Actually Spain includes CAtalonia and Basque country and they were into the European Union included with the “spanish package”.

Stop the egoism and individualism. Please.