Comments on: The battle of Wobbly Knee: Dutch troops in Afghanistan http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-battle-of-wobbly-knee-dutch-troops-in-afghanistan/ European Opinion Wed, 07 Jan 2009 21:48:43 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: Alex http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-battle-of-wobbly-knee-dutch-troops-in-afghanistan/#comment-12911 Alex Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:29:14 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2310#comment-12911 As I'm sure you're aware, I doubt the British contribution is getting full material and political backing, let alone a clear aim.. As I’m sure you’re aware, I doubt the British contribution is getting full material and political backing, let alone a clear aim..

]]> By: Guy http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-battle-of-wobbly-knee-dutch-troops-in-afghanistan/#comment-12910 Guy Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:39:31 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2310#comment-12910 "Re: Srebrenica. I can't see the read-across here. Are they really worried that they'll end up protecting a bunch of civilians under a mandate that doesn't let them open fire?" It may only be a part of the issue, but Srebrenica could also be seen as general unpreparedness for a mission resulting in failure. Not necessarily 'technical' failure, given the lack of mandate at the time of Srebrenica, but a failure to justify Dutch military presence in a war zone. If the Dutch decide to send troops, they should provide them with adequate backing, both politically and materially. No more window-dressing and no more doubts. If you are going to do something, make sure you do it as well as possible. That is a lesson taken from Srebrenica. At least, that is what I think. “Re: Srebrenica. I can’t see the read-across here. Are they really worried that they’ll end up protecting a bunch of civilians under a mandate that doesn’t let them open fire?”

It may only be a part of the issue, but Srebrenica could also be seen as general unpreparedness for a mission resulting in failure. Not necessarily ‘technical’ failure, given the lack of mandate at the time of Srebrenica, but a failure to justify Dutch military presence in a war zone.

If the Dutch decide to send troops, they should provide them with adequate backing, both politically and materially. No more window-dressing and no more doubts. If you are going to do something, make sure you do it as well as possible. That is a lesson taken from Srebrenica. At least, that is what I think.

]]> By: Alex http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-battle-of-wobbly-knee-dutch-troops-in-afghanistan/#comment-12909 Alex Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:07:23 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2310#comment-12909 Especially as they are unlikely to be accused of war crimes, the international crime of aggression, or crimes against humanity, and hence aren't within the ICC's remit. More likely they would be either POWs or criminals in Afghan law. Re: Srebrenica. I can't see the read-across here. Are they really worried that they'll end up protecting a bunch of civilians under a mandate that doesn't let them open fire? Certainly ISAF has full Chapter VII authorisation, i.e. a shoot-first ROE. Especially as they are unlikely to be accused of war crimes, the international crime of aggression, or crimes against humanity, and hence aren’t within the ICC’s remit. More likely they would be either POWs or criminals in Afghan law.

Re: Srebrenica. I can’t see the read-across here. Are they really worried that they’ll end up protecting a bunch of civilians under a mandate that doesn’t let them open fire? Certainly ISAF has full Chapter VII authorisation, i.e. a shoot-first ROE.

]]> By: Huib, Brussels http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-battle-of-wobbly-knee-dutch-troops-in-afghanistan/#comment-12908 Huib, Brussels Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:44:00 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2310#comment-12908 @Richard K: The arrangements about people taken prisoner by the Dutch in Afghanistan, are: 1. Dutch military embedded in "Enduring Freedom", may hold them 3 days before handing them over to the Americans, under the condition that they will not receive capital punishment. 2. Dutch troops that take prisoners during IAF missions, will hand them over to the Afghan Government, under the same condition. I think, that, in order to get the USA to accept a The Hague International Criminal Court role, an EU initiative would be needed. @Richard K: The arrangements about people taken prisoner by the Dutch in Afghanistan, are:
1. Dutch military embedded in “Enduring Freedom”, may hold them 3 days before handing them over to the Americans, under the condition that they will not receive capital punishment.
2. Dutch troops that take prisoners during IAF missions, will hand them over to the Afghan Government, under the same condition.
I think, that, in order to get the USA to accept a The Hague International Criminal Court role, an EU initiative would be needed.

]]> By: Richard K http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-battle-of-wobbly-knee-dutch-troops-in-afghanistan/#comment-12907 Richard K Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:46:53 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2310#comment-12907 The Dutch should insist that any muslim extremists that they capture in Afghanistan be brought to the Hague rather than Gitmo or some other torture zone the US has opened up around the world. The Dutch should insist that any muslim extremists that they capture in Afghanistan be brought to the Hague rather than Gitmo or some other torture zone the US has opened up around the world.

]]> By: Huib, Brussels http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-battle-of-wobbly-knee-dutch-troops-in-afghanistan/#comment-12906 Huib, Brussels Thu, 19 Jan 2006 06:03:47 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2310#comment-12906 @Charly: I do not expect a folding by D'66 either. They need not. They are doing the same show as Jaap de Hoop Scheffer (now: NATO General Secretary, then: parliamentary leader of the then oppositional CDA) did in respect to the potentially dangerous deployment of Dutch military for the UN in the border region between Eritrea and Ethiopia: saying "no", hoping to gain some votes from outside their customary clientele. The big oppositional social-democrat party PvdA is expected to go along with Government under some conditions that are negotiated over at this moment. That would provide an overwhelming parliamentary majority in favour of the mission. @Charly: I do not expect a folding by D’66 either. They need not. They are doing the same show as Jaap de Hoop Scheffer (now: NATO General Secretary, then: parliamentary leader of the then oppositional CDA) did in respect to the potentially dangerous deployment of Dutch military for the UN in the border region between Eritrea and Ethiopia: saying “no”, hoping to gain some votes from outside their customary clientele.
The big oppositional social-democrat party PvdA is expected to go along with Government under some conditions that are negotiated over at this moment. That would provide an overwhelming parliamentary majority in favour of the mission.

]]> By: Charly http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-battle-of-wobbly-knee-dutch-troops-in-afghanistan/#comment-12905 Charly Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:18:44 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2310#comment-12905 D66 has a name to hold up with respect to keeping their stand as they always fold. If they do not fold, which i somehow expect, than you should read this as proof that the other Dutch parties also don't want to go the Afganistan D66 has a name to hold up with respect to keeping their stand as they always fold. If they do not fold, which i somehow expect, than you should read this as proof that the other Dutch parties also don’t want to go the Afganistan

]]> By: Huib Riethof, Brussels http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-battle-of-wobbly-knee-dutch-troops-in-afghanistan/#comment-12904 Huib Riethof, Brussels Thu, 19 Jan 2006 04:31:16 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2310#comment-12904 Detlef is right: The best trained and equipped Dutch military (commandos, marines, 542 of them), are already engaged in Afghanistan with the US operation "Enduring Freedom". What General Berlijn, the Dutch army's Commandant in chief, has to offer for the Uruzgan mission, are badly trained "airlifted intervention brigade" troops, the same that were engaged in 1995 in Srebrenica, and who made such a shameful show there. The ambition to have the best of two worlds, i.e.: being a core EU-member AND staying a pet of the Americans, has once again carried away the Dutch Government. Initial hesitations about this mission with the Minister of Defense and the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Relations, were fed by an exceptional critical report of the Dutch Army Secret Service about conditions in Uruzgan (November 2005). Foreign Minister Bot (Christian Democrat, the leading Government Coalition party), prior to Minister Condoleezza Rice's visit to Europe in the first days of December, asked even, that Guantanamo and CIA torture prisons in Europe be closed, before any Dutch troops could go to Afghanistan. Rice's contact with the European allies at NATO headquarters on December 6, changed apparently very much: Suddenly, Bot and his CDA were in favour of this mission, and showed full confidence in the "no-torture" affirmations of the Americans. What happened? My conjecture is this: Washington Neoconservatives, the "pure" ones, do not want NATO to be a part of the Afghanistan campaign. The new Pentagon doctrine is: "The mission defines the coalition". European NATO-partners, aspiring to position themselves as equal partners and co-targets of terrorism, are not welcome. Vance Serchuk, a research fellow of the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) on 'post-conflict reconstruction in Afghanistan and Iraq', published an AEI 'short publication' on January 9, 2006. It is called "Dutch Retreat?" (a pun on 'Dutch Treat', you'll understand). To him, the farcical Dutch hesitations and skittiness, come as a welcome occasion, to argue again, that the US should opt out completely from alliance-based coalitions. Why not engage the "efficient" Turks in stead? The paper was also published in The Weekly Standard (9-16 January, p 27 sqq). The WS is the Washington Neocons' agitprop weekly. It seems evident, that the American Neoconservatives (ab)use the Dutch as their "tête de Turc", in order to attack indirectly president Bush and his Secretary of State Rice. I think that that is, why a normally reserved diplomat like Paul Bremer III went into so undiplomatic a statement recently. Bremer is a State Dept man. He and his friends need desperately the Dutch beating about the Bush to stop. Kurt Volker, State Department assistant secretary visiting The Hague these days, disavowed Bremer today (18/01/06, source: NRC-Handelsblad, p. 1), saying that he "has no official status" and that he was "only promoting his book" (about his quarrels with the Pentagon as American vice-roy of Iraq 2003-2004, HR). But Volker was not ambiguous about what is being expected from the Dutch in Afghanistan: There has to be a "synergy" between "Enduring Freedom" and the Dutch IAF mission. The Dutch cannot look another way, when the Americans signal a "terrorist" movement in their area. I suspect, that the Dutch Foreign Office establishment, encouraged by the British, have understood what is at stake on a diplomatic level and have succumbed to the idea (I think: the illusion) that they may indirectly get an opening with president Bush. "I help you out; what will you do for me now?" Probable victims of this illusionist diplomatic play will be the Dutch military sent to Afghanistan. For what the Dutch ask from their allies, is fundamentally contradictory: a. "Protect us, so that we will not be left on our own, like in Srebrenica!" and b. "Leave us alone. We are on a humanitarian mission. It would be harmed, if we were assiociated with you!" Whatever the Dutch Parliament (who were not allowed to see the November paper of the Army Secret Service, same source, HR) will decide: They will get a "Dutch Treat" in return... Detlef is right: The best trained and equipped Dutch military (commandos, marines, 542 of them), are already engaged in Afghanistan with the US operation “Enduring Freedom”. What General Berlijn, the Dutch army’s Commandant in chief, has to offer for the Uruzgan mission, are badly trained “airlifted intervention brigade” troops, the same that were engaged in 1995 in Srebrenica, and who made such a shameful show there.
The ambition to have the best of two worlds, i.e.: being a core EU-member AND staying a pet of the Americans, has once again carried away the Dutch Government.
Initial hesitations about this mission with the Minister of Defense and the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Relations, were fed by an exceptional critical report of the Dutch Army Secret Service about conditions in Uruzgan (November 2005). Foreign Minister Bot (Christian Democrat, the leading Government Coalition party), prior to Minister Condoleezza Rice’s visit to Europe in the first days of December, asked even, that Guantanamo and CIA torture prisons in Europe be closed, before any Dutch troops could go to Afghanistan.
Rice’s contact with the European allies at NATO headquarters on December 6, changed apparently very much: Suddenly, Bot and his CDA were in favour of this mission, and showed full confidence in the “no-torture” affirmations of the Americans.
What happened?
My conjecture is this: Washington Neoconservatives, the “pure” ones, do not want NATO to be a part of the Afghanistan campaign. The new Pentagon doctrine is: “The mission defines the coalition”. European NATO-partners, aspiring to position themselves as equal partners and co-targets of terrorism, are not welcome. Vance Serchuk, a research fellow of the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) on ‘post-conflict reconstruction in Afghanistan and Iraq’, published an AEI ’short publication’ on January 9, 2006. It is called “Dutch Retreat?” (a pun on ‘Dutch Treat’, you’ll understand).
To him, the farcical Dutch hesitations and skittiness, come as a welcome occasion, to argue again, that the US should opt out completely from alliance-based coalitions. Why not engage the “efficient” Turks in stead? The paper was also published in The Weekly Standard (9-16 January, p 27 sqq). The WS is the Washington Neocons’ agitprop weekly.
It seems evident, that the American Neoconservatives (ab)use the Dutch as their “tête de Turc”, in order to attack indirectly president Bush and his Secretary of State Rice. I think that that is, why a normally reserved diplomat like Paul Bremer III went into so undiplomatic a statement recently. Bremer is a State Dept man. He and his friends need desperately the Dutch beating about the Bush to stop.
Kurt Volker, State Department assistant secretary visiting The Hague these days, disavowed Bremer today (18/01/06, source: NRC-Handelsblad, p. 1), saying that he “has no official status” and that he was “only promoting his book” (about his quarrels with the Pentagon as American vice-roy of Iraq 2003-2004, HR). But Volker was not ambiguous about what is being expected from the Dutch in Afghanistan: There has to be a “synergy” between “Enduring Freedom” and the Dutch IAF mission. The Dutch cannot look another way, when the Americans signal a “terrorist” movement in their area.
I suspect, that the Dutch Foreign Office establishment, encouraged by the British, have understood what is at stake on a diplomatic level and have succumbed to the idea (I think: the illusion) that they may indirectly get an opening with president Bush. “I help you out; what will you do for me now?”
Probable victims of this illusionist diplomatic play will be the Dutch military sent to Afghanistan. For what the Dutch ask from their allies, is fundamentally contradictory: a. “Protect us, so that we will not be left on our own, like in Srebrenica!” and b. “Leave us alone. We are on a humanitarian mission. It would be harmed, if we were assiociated with you!”
Whatever the Dutch Parliament (who were not allowed to see the November paper of the Army Secret Service, same source, HR) will decide: They will get a “Dutch Treat” in return…

]]> By: Detlef http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-battle-of-wobbly-knee-dutch-troops-in-afghanistan/#comment-12903 Detlef Thu, 19 Jan 2006 01:45:10 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2310#comment-12903 Maybe because that´s a lot of soldiers? If my Google search was right the Dutch army consists of about 22,000 soldiers. http://www.nato.int/ims/2004/win/netherlands.pdf Add the 1,200 to the already deployed 1,200 soldiers and you´ve got 10 % of the Dutch army deployed in Afghanistan alone. Plus the ones deployed in the Balkans. For comparison, the British army consists of around 100,000 soldiers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_United_Kingdom Of these, around 9,000 are deployed in Iraq and 650 in Afghanistan. Roughly 10% again. http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0086.html Given the small size of the Dutch army and that the British army probably is better equipped and trained for international missions, the Dutch are already doing a lot IMO. It looks more like a government promising more than it could deliver. Maybe because that´s a lot of soldiers?

If my Google search was right the Dutch army consists of about 22,000 soldiers.
http://www.nato.int/ims/2004/win/netherlands.pdf
Add the 1,200 to the already deployed 1,200 soldiers and you´ve got 10 % of the Dutch army deployed in Afghanistan alone. Plus the ones deployed in the Balkans.

For comparison, the British army consists of around 100,000 soldiers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_United_Kingdom
Of these, around 9,000 are deployed in Iraq and 650 in Afghanistan. Roughly 10% again.
http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0086.html

Given the small size of the Dutch army and that the British army probably is better equipped and trained for international missions, the Dutch are already doing a lot IMO.

It looks more like a government promising more than it could deliver.

]]> By: Edward http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-battle-of-wobbly-knee-dutch-troops-in-afghanistan/#comment-12902 Edward Thu, 19 Jan 2006 01:25:29 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2310#comment-12902 On the Russia causing mischief issue, this is going to be typical of the very minimum we can expect: However, previous EU predictions that the IAEA board would send the Iran dossier to the council as soon as early next month were "looking a bit sick," a top EU diplomat said. The diplomat, who asked not to be identified, said Russia wants the IAEA to inform the council about the Iran issue, but in some way that stops short of a formal referral. On the Russia causing mischief issue, this is going to be typical of the very minimum we can expect:

However, previous EU predictions that the IAEA board would send the Iran dossier to the council as soon as early next month were “looking a bit sick,” a top EU diplomat said.

The diplomat, who asked not to be identified, said Russia wants the IAEA to inform the council about the Iran issue, but in some way that stops short of a formal referral.

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