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	<title>Comments on: The American angle</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-american-angle/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Voices without Votes &#187; Georgia: U.S. Complicity?</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-american-angle/#comment-26985</link>
		<dc:creator>Voices without Votes &#187; Georgia: U.S. Complicity?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 17:27:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3434#comment-26985</guid>
		<description>[...] Fistful of Euros comments on speculation that the United States might have effectively given Georgia the green light .... If so, the blog says, such a move was &#8220;one of the most indefensible things the Bush [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Fistful of Euros comments on speculation that the United States might have effectively given Georgia the green light &#8230;. If so, the blog says, such a move was &#8220;one of the most indefensible things the Bush [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Georgia &#8220;pulls out of South Ossetia&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-american-angle/#comment-22036</link>
		<dc:creator>Georgia &#8220;pulls out of South Ossetia&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 10:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3434#comment-22036</guid>
		<description>[...] view of the political status of South Ossetia. The Fistful of Euros blog is in the region and has posted several times on the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] view of the political status of South Ossetia. The Fistful of Euros blog is in the region and has posted several times on the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Merrill</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-american-angle/#comment-21649</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Merrill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3434#comment-21649</guid>
		<description>Since my post kicked this off, I can more imagine this as a case of people talking past each other. Misha goes "We take the territorial integrity of our country very seriously," thinking he is letting the American side know something is about to happen. And Rice (I think it was) gives the boilerplate US response, "We support the territorial integrity of Georgia." M then reads this as a green light, while R thinks that the sides have confirmed their existing views.

If this sort of exchange happened (and we won't know for at least 30 years until the files are opened, if then), the US error was in not adding, "But Misha, under no circumstances should you do anything military about it right now. Your planning staff if full of siloviki, and Ivan will know what your guys are doing probably before you will. Ivan's also just finished a big exercise, so there are ten different kinds of trouble just waiting to come down the road. And military help from the West? Ask the Hungarians about '56. Just saying."

Now it's possible that this kind of warning was delivered and ignored. It's possible also that Georgian leaders knew or believed that the Russians would follow their recent military infrastructure upgrades in Abkhazia with similar in South Ossetia, making this a now or never play.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since my post kicked this off, I can more imagine this as a case of people talking past each other. Misha goes &#8220;We take the territorial integrity of our country very seriously,&#8221; thinking he is letting the American side know something is about to happen. And Rice (I think it was) gives the boilerplate US response, &#8220;We support the territorial integrity of Georgia.&#8221; M then reads this as a green light, while R thinks that the sides have confirmed their existing views.</p>
<p>If this sort of exchange happened (and we won&#8217;t know for at least 30 years until the files are opened, if then), the US error was in not adding, &#8220;But Misha, under no circumstances should you do anything military about it right now. Your planning staff if full of siloviki, and Ivan will know what your guys are doing probably before you will. Ivan&#8217;s also just finished a big exercise, so there are ten different kinds of trouble just waiting to come down the road. And military help from the West? Ask the Hungarians about &#8216;56. Just saying.&#8221;</p>
<p>Now it&#8217;s possible that this kind of warning was delivered and ignored. It&#8217;s possible also that Georgian leaders knew or believed that the Russians would follow their recent military infrastructure upgrades in Abkhazia with similar in South Ossetia, making this a now or never play.</p>
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		<title>By: Badtux</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-american-angle/#comment-21605</link>
		<dc:creator>Badtux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 06:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3434#comment-21605</guid>
		<description>People who can see Iran West as anything other than a disaster possess peculiar rose colored glasses that elude my possession. There was of course an opportunity to turn it into an example state. But the administration's attempt at nation-building as been as incompetent and fumble-fingered as anything else the administration has done. I fail to see how an Iranian client state in Mesopotamia is in the U.S. best interests. (You *are* aware that the "President" of Iraq is an Iranian agent who spent the twenty years prior to the U.S. invasion as a guest of Iran, right? And that his Badr Brigade militia was armed and trained by Iran?). 

Regarding Georgia, I fail to see the relevance, other than that it is very unlikely that the U.S. gave the go-ahead to Saakashvili or understood any notifications that Saakashvili gave them beforehand. That is ascribing more competence to the current U.S. administration than it appears to possess. As for the assistance that Saakashvili is getting from the United States, I'm sure he's just eternally grateful for the sternly-worded letter that the U.S. Ambassador to Russia just handed to the Minister of State there. Why, a few more sternly-worded letters, and Pooty-poot can start a fire in one of the Kremlin's fireplaces with them!
Sad to say, some people just don't seem to learn from the examples of Lon Nol, Nguyen Van Thieu, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, ... U.S. support means nothing, in the end. So it goes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People who can see Iran West as anything other than a disaster possess peculiar rose colored glasses that elude my possession. There was of course an opportunity to turn it into an example state. But the administration&#8217;s attempt at nation-building as been as incompetent and fumble-fingered as anything else the administration has done. I fail to see how an Iranian client state in Mesopotamia is in the U.S. best interests. (You *are* aware that the &#8220;President&#8221; of Iraq is an Iranian agent who spent the twenty years prior to the U.S. invasion as a guest of Iran, right? And that his Badr Brigade militia was armed and trained by Iran?). </p>
<p>Regarding Georgia, I fail to see the relevance, other than that it is very unlikely that the U.S. gave the go-ahead to Saakashvili or understood any notifications that Saakashvili gave them beforehand. That is ascribing more competence to the current U.S. administration than it appears to possess. As for the assistance that Saakashvili is getting from the United States, I&#8217;m sure he&#8217;s just eternally grateful for the sternly-worded letter that the U.S. Ambassador to Russia just handed to the Minister of State there. Why, a few more sternly-worded letters, and Pooty-poot can start a fire in one of the Kremlin&#8217;s fireplaces with them!<br />
Sad to say, some people just don&#8217;t seem to learn from the examples of Lon Nol, Nguyen Van Thieu, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, &#8230; U.S. support means nothing, in the end. So it goes.</p>
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		<title>By: Dimons</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-american-angle/#comment-21601</link>
		<dc:creator>Dimons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 03:38:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3434#comment-21601</guid>
		<description>http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3183091&#38;postcount=19</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3183091&amp;postcount=19" rel="nofollow">http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3183091&amp;postcount=19</a></p>
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		<title>By: amos</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-american-angle/#comment-21600</link>
		<dc:creator>amos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 03:36:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3434#comment-21600</guid>
		<description>The world is full of automatons. Only America has Free Will, and thus, only America is to blame.

Confrontational approach to Russia? Yes, Russia has every right to try to keep the territories it landed while the body and head of the Soviet Union. To say otherwise: confrontational!

What we've got here is a bona fide Imperialistic War of Aggression for Oil. Any minute now, Progressives all over the world will hold demonstrations. Documentaries will make the circuit. Performance artists will run riot. To stop this policy, George Soros will spend incredible amounts of political money with people who normally cry about enormous amounts of political money being spent.

Any minute now... any minute... wait for it... just... around... the... corner... Godot? Was that Godot?

Badtux, the government of America - actually, let's be honest - America authorized its government through a representative democratic process - to invade the one country in the middle east that a) had several casus belli for more than a decade, albeit largely unrelated to the direct attacks of 9/11, b) was at the fulcrum of Arab and Persian Islamic Crazy, c) could, by way of placing a competing meme (pluralistic democracy) right smack in the middle of the Middle East entirely change the rules of the game.

No, Badtux, what you're missing is that YOU'RE the one not seeing far enough. The policy of tit-for-tat, keystone cops finding only the perpetrators of an act of terrorism was and is a myopic, amateurish policy. It allows the enemy to dictate the rules and the intensity of the game. It's policing, which isn't about stopping crime so much as mopping up after.

What you're missing Badtux, the possibility which eats you up at night, is the reality that the Bush administration's reasons for going into Iraq always was about a radically different plan for the Middle East. Afghanistan was important, but only for punitive reasons. To change the war, we had to go deeper. Saddam's bad luck he was the best target around. People like you think you have to take the queen (in this case, Saudi Arabia) in order to win a game of chess. No, boy, you don't. 

You're looking at the Magna Carta of the Middle East. You don't know it yet. And it will be years until you are able to admit it. Weeks after that, I'm sure you'll pretend it was an accident on their part and your idea all along. But there it is. 

Or is it just that you don't want to consider the notion that you've been wrong all along?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The world is full of automatons. Only America has Free Will, and thus, only America is to blame.</p>
<p>Confrontational approach to Russia? Yes, Russia has every right to try to keep the territories it landed while the body and head of the Soviet Union. To say otherwise: confrontational!</p>
<p>What we&#8217;ve got here is a bona fide Imperialistic War of Aggression for Oil. Any minute now, Progressives all over the world will hold demonstrations. Documentaries will make the circuit. Performance artists will run riot. To stop this policy, George Soros will spend incredible amounts of political money with people who normally cry about enormous amounts of political money being spent.</p>
<p>Any minute now&#8230; any minute&#8230; wait for it&#8230; just&#8230; around&#8230; the&#8230; corner&#8230; Godot? Was that Godot?</p>
<p>Badtux, the government of America - actually, let&#8217;s be honest - America authorized its government through a representative democratic process - to invade the one country in the middle east that a) had several casus belli for more than a decade, albeit largely unrelated to the direct attacks of 9/11, b) was at the fulcrum of Arab and Persian Islamic Crazy, c) could, by way of placing a competing meme (pluralistic democracy) right smack in the middle of the Middle East entirely change the rules of the game.</p>
<p>No, Badtux, what you&#8217;re missing is that YOU&#8217;RE the one not seeing far enough. The policy of tit-for-tat, keystone cops finding only the perpetrators of an act of terrorism was and is a myopic, amateurish policy. It allows the enemy to dictate the rules and the intensity of the game. It&#8217;s policing, which isn&#8217;t about stopping crime so much as mopping up after.</p>
<p>What you&#8217;re missing Badtux, the possibility which eats you up at night, is the reality that the Bush administration&#8217;s reasons for going into Iraq always was about a radically different plan for the Middle East. Afghanistan was important, but only for punitive reasons. To change the war, we had to go deeper. Saddam&#8217;s bad luck he was the best target around. People like you think you have to take the queen (in this case, Saudi Arabia) in order to win a game of chess. No, boy, you don&#8217;t. </p>
<p>You&#8217;re looking at the Magna Carta of the Middle East. You don&#8217;t know it yet. And it will be years until you are able to admit it. Weeks after that, I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ll pretend it was an accident on their part and your idea all along. But there it is. </p>
<p>Or is it just that you don&#8217;t want to consider the notion that you&#8217;ve been wrong all along?</p>
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		<title>By: Badtux</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-american-angle/#comment-21566</link>
		<dc:creator>Badtux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 19:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3434#comment-21566</guid>
		<description>The notion that a Secretary of State whose reaction to receiving a memo in August 2001 saying that al Qaeda was determined to strike within America by hijacking airplanes was to, err, &lt;i&gt;do nothing&lt;/i&gt; (this was when she was National Security Advisor) did anything but say &lt;i&gt;huh? Who is Georgia going to war against? Alabama?&lt;/i&gt; when she got entreaties from her embassy in Georgia to say something to the Georgians about their war plans... 

I notice that non-Americans ascribe far too much competence to the U.S. government. This is the same U.S. government that, confronted with terrorism in the post-September-2001 era, decided to invade the one and only nation in the Middle East which did &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; participate in the terrorist attack against the WTC and Pentagon. This is the same U.S. government that, confronted with ragtag militias with no external base of support in Afghanistan protecting the organizer of those attacks, managed to, err, well, &lt;i&gt;lose&lt;/i&gt; -- Osama bin Laden is, as far as I know, comfortably situated in a cushy condo in Islamabad courtesy of the ISI. Surely by this time even Europeans should have clued in that the current U.S. government is not competent to choose its own breakfast, much less give the go-ahead (or not) to the outbreak of WWIII. I wonder what the deal here is... is it just that people don't want to consider the notion of a nation ruled by idiots that also possesses nuclear weapons because, well, that's a disturbing concept?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The notion that a Secretary of State whose reaction to receiving a memo in August 2001 saying that al Qaeda was determined to strike within America by hijacking airplanes was to, err, <i>do nothing</i> (this was when she was National Security Advisor) did anything but say <i>huh? Who is Georgia going to war against? Alabama?</i> when she got entreaties from her embassy in Georgia to say something to the Georgians about their war plans&#8230; </p>
<p>I notice that non-Americans ascribe far too much competence to the U.S. government. This is the same U.S. government that, confronted with terrorism in the post-September-2001 era, decided to invade the one and only nation in the Middle East which did <i>not</i> participate in the terrorist attack against the WTC and Pentagon. This is the same U.S. government that, confronted with ragtag militias with no external base of support in Afghanistan protecting the organizer of those attacks, managed to, err, well, <i>lose</i> &#8212; Osama bin Laden is, as far as I know, comfortably situated in a cushy condo in Islamabad courtesy of the ISI. Surely by this time even Europeans should have clued in that the current U.S. government is not competent to choose its own breakfast, much less give the go-ahead (or not) to the outbreak of WWIII. I wonder what the deal here is&#8230; is it just that people don&#8217;t want to consider the notion of a nation ruled by idiots that also possesses nuclear weapons because, well, that&#8217;s a disturbing concept?</p>
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		<title>By: Armenia &#38; the South Caucasus &#124; The Caucasian Knot &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Georgia: U.S. Complicity?</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-american-angle/#comment-21553</link>
		<dc:creator>Armenia &#38; the South Caucasus &#124; The Caucasian Knot &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Georgia: U.S. Complicity?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:47:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3434#comment-21553</guid>
		<description>[...] A Fistful of Euros comments on speculation that the United States might have effectively given Georgia the green light for military operations in South Ossetia. If so, the blog says, such a move was “one of the most indefensible things the Bush Administration has done in the last few years.” The Americans have more or less encouraged Saakashvili’s dangerously confrontational approach to Russia, and have given them hopes of NATO membership, which was never going to happen. They may also have had unrealistic expectations about US support in the event of a war. This war would likely never have happened if the US had discouraged the Georgians [update: in the last few years. Not saying the low level visit last week was crucial, rather than telling.] The result is an probable own goal by the Bushies. [&#8230;] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A Fistful of Euros comments on speculation that the United States might have effectively given Georgia the green light for military operations in South Ossetia. If so, the blog says, such a move was “one of the most indefensible things the Bush Administration has done in the last few years.” The Americans have more or less encouraged Saakashvili’s dangerously confrontational approach to Russia, and have given them hopes of NATO membership, which was never going to happen. They may also have had unrealistic expectations about US support in the event of a war. This war would likely never have happened if the US had discouraged the Georgians [update: in the last few years. Not saying the low level visit last week was crucial, rather than telling.] The result is an probable own goal by the Bushies. [&#8230;] [...]</p>
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		<title>By: sdfbh2ggkg878t8</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-american-angle/#comment-21546</link>
		<dc:creator>sdfbh2ggkg878t8</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:31:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3434#comment-21546</guid>
		<description>This is to to keep the Russians occupied and distracted to keep their involvement down and ruin their moral authority when a well known oil producing country in the axis of evil gets bombed in the next few weeks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is to to keep the Russians occupied and distracted to keep their involvement down and ruin their moral authority when a well known oil producing country in the axis of evil gets bombed in the next few weeks.</p>
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		<title>By: Global Voices Online &#187; Georgia: U.S. Complicity?</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/the-american-angle/#comment-21545</link>
		<dc:creator>Global Voices Online &#187; Georgia: U.S. Complicity?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:18:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3434#comment-21545</guid>
		<description>[...] Fistful of Euros comments on speculation that the United States might have effectively given Georgia the green light .... If so, the blog says, such a move was &#8220;one of the most indefensible things the Bush [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Fistful of Euros comments on speculation that the United States might have effectively given Georgia the green light &#8230;. If so, the blog says, such a move was &#8220;one of the most indefensible things the Bush [...]</p>
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