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	<title>Comments on: Shipbuilding</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/shipbuilding/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Charly</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/shipbuilding/#comment-14304</link>
		<dc:creator>Charly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Apr 2006 04:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2500#comment-14304</guid>
		<description>To obvious. You also need to stock a aircraft carrier with planes and a nuclear submarine needs nukes which are an official no-no for the states that don't have nuclear submarines already
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To obvious. You also need to stock a aircraft carrier with planes and a nuclear submarine needs nukes which are an official no-no for the states that don&#8217;t have nuclear submarines already</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/shipbuilding/#comment-14303</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Apr 2006 03:04:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2500#comment-14303</guid>
		<description>Isn't the prestige ship an aircraft carrier? Or a nuclear powered submarine?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t the prestige ship an aircraft carrier? Or a nuclear powered submarine?</p>
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		<title>By: French Swede the Rootless vegetable</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/shipbuilding/#comment-14302</link>
		<dc:creator>French Swede the Rootless vegetable</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Apr 2006 04:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2500#comment-14302</guid>
		<description>Sorry, couldn't resist pandering to jingoistic stereotypes...

Indeed comparing to the the South American way is not the lest as silly as as the WWI race; should had read your most more thoroughly (btw very interesting and informative about boats, and also your blog in general)

But I still think there's a crucial difference between the S. American battleship buil-up and the European LDP one, namely that the former was competetive and the latter cooperative. 
Another is that the first was totally devoid of military purpose, while the only realistic major mission that Europeans navies could be called upon is projecting expeditionary forces. 
You correctly state both those facts. 

While I could accept the prestige argument "but they got one, I want mine too" would be valid within, say, some navy circles of the more atavistic kind, I doubt most policy-makers would see prestige in ships designated by acronyms, not to speak of the general public.

As for constructivism and realism, I suppose you could argue for both (humanitarian and peacekeeping ideals resp. the preserving Europe as a major military power in the world).
I don't why, but all those theories remind me of the story about the blind scientists and the elephant.

No direspect, but I'm not much into ismism. I would much admire a country that had as the theoretical basis for its international relations, that Old West motto, "to ride, shoot straight, and speak the truth".

(no, I don't mean Bush doctrine; the Texas saying for that would be "all hat and no cattle")</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, couldn&#8217;t resist pandering to jingoistic stereotypes&#8230;</p>
<p>Indeed comparing to the the South American way is not the lest as silly as as the WWI race; should had read your most more thoroughly (btw very interesting and informative about boats, and also your blog in general)</p>
<p>But I still think there&#8217;s a crucial difference between the S. American battleship buil-up and the European LDP one, namely that the former was competetive and the latter cooperative.<br />
Another is that the first was totally devoid of military purpose, while the only realistic major mission that Europeans navies could be called upon is projecting expeditionary forces.<br />
You correctly state both those facts. </p>
<p>While I could accept the prestige argument &#8220;but they got one, I want mine too&#8221; would be valid within, say, some navy circles of the more atavistic kind, I doubt most policy-makers would see prestige in ships designated by acronyms, not to speak of the general public.</p>
<p>As for constructivism and realism, I suppose you could argue for both (humanitarian and peacekeeping ideals resp. the preserving Europe as a major military power in the world).<br />
I don&#8217;t why, but all those theories remind me of the story about the blind scientists and the elephant.</p>
<p>No direspect, but I&#8217;m not much into ismism. I would much admire a country that had as the theoretical basis for its international relations, that Old West motto, &#8220;to ride, shoot straight, and speak the truth&#8221;.</p>
<p>(no, I don&#8217;t mean Bush doctrine; the Texas saying for that would be &#8220;all hat and no cattle&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/shipbuilding/#comment-14301</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:17:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2500#comment-14301</guid>
		<description>Heh.  I love being called a typical American.

To clarify, my argument had nothing to do with traditional arms race dynamics (we must have an LPD to defend against the Spanish one), but took rather a more constructivist turn (we ought to have an LPD because so many countries of our size have one).  This is where I suggest that there might be some similarity with the pre-1914 experience (which is best captured, incidentally, not by the UK-German dreadnought race but by the Brazil-Argentina-Chile competition).  

But yes, I agree that the vessels now being purchased by European and extra-European countries are genuinely more useful than the dreadnoughts purchased by Chile and Argentina.  I'm not convinced, though, that the motivations for building these ships are better explained by realist or constructivist principles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh.  I love being called a typical American.</p>
<p>To clarify, my argument had nothing to do with traditional arms race dynamics (we must have an LPD to defend against the Spanish one), but took rather a more constructivist turn (we ought to have an LPD because so many countries of our size have one).  This is where I suggest that there might be some similarity with the pre-1914 experience (which is best captured, incidentally, not by the UK-German dreadnought race but by the Brazil-Argentina-Chile competition).  </p>
<p>But yes, I agree that the vessels now being purchased by European and extra-European countries are genuinely more useful than the dreadnoughts purchased by Chile and Argentina.  I&#8217;m not convinced, though, that the motivations for building these ships are better explained by realist or constructivist principles.</p>
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		<title>By: FRench Swede the Rootless vegetable</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/shipbuilding/#comment-14300</link>
		<dc:creator>FRench Swede the Rootless vegetable</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:33:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2500#comment-14300</guid>
		<description>I agree with Oliver that the comparaison with the pre-WWI battleship arm race competely misses the point (btw, speaking of dreadnoughts, 
Robert Massie's book on that race is excellent) and that western countries need such brown-water ships, not blue-water ones like subs or ASW or anti-surface ships. Not even carriers are as necessary if you got VTOL aircrafts (with the caveat that you can field only a very limited number with LDPs, but it's sufficient for anything save full-scale inter-state war).

That lawyers, guns and money post reflects a typical American view (doctrine) of excessive (overwhelming )firepower, that anything but at least twelve giant nuclear carrier groups is pointless. Walnuts and sledgehammers...

And, taken together, the European amphibious fleet is substantial, with: 

o one British Ocean-class Landing Platform Helicopter, two Albion-class Landing Platform Dock, four Bay-class LPD (to replace the Round Table-class LSL), and six Point-class (semi-military) ro-ro ships

o one French Jeanne D'Arc-class helicopter carrier, two Foudre-class and two Mistral-class LPD, 

o three Italian San-Giorgio-class LPD

o two Spanish  Enforcer-class LPD and two Newport-class LST

o two Dutch Enforcer-class LPD

o one Portugese Enforcer-class LPD

for a total of 22 amphibious ships plus the six British ro-ro's.

The US navy has more than 40 amphibious ships of all kinds, so that there is fair probability that there is one or two at sea not too far from any eventual  hotspot. Obviously, a navy with just one or couple of ships is quite meaningless, as it can be at only one place at a time, but that's the whole purpose of coordinating the Europeans navies so they can achieve an operational capability together. Calling that an arm race is just silly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Oliver that the comparaison with the pre-WWI battleship arm race competely misses the point (btw, speaking of dreadnoughts,<br />
Robert Massie&#8217;s book on that race is excellent) and that western countries need such brown-water ships, not blue-water ones like subs or ASW or anti-surface ships. Not even carriers are as necessary if you got VTOL aircrafts (with the caveat that you can field only a very limited number with LDPs, but it&#8217;s sufficient for anything save full-scale inter-state war).</p>
<p>That lawyers, guns and money post reflects a typical American view (doctrine) of excessive (overwhelming )firepower, that anything but at least twelve giant nuclear carrier groups is pointless. Walnuts and sledgehammers&#8230;</p>
<p>And, taken together, the European amphibious fleet is substantial, with: </p>
<p>o one British Ocean-class Landing Platform Helicopter, two Albion-class Landing Platform Dock, four Bay-class LPD (to replace the Round Table-class LSL), and six Point-class (semi-military) ro-ro ships</p>
<p>o one French Jeanne D&#8217;Arc-class helicopter carrier, two Foudre-class and two Mistral-class LPD, </p>
<p>o three Italian San-Giorgio-class LPD</p>
<p>o two Spanish  Enforcer-class LPD and two Newport-class LST</p>
<p>o two Dutch Enforcer-class LPD</p>
<p>o one Portugese Enforcer-class LPD</p>
<p>for a total of 22 amphibious ships plus the six British ro-ro&#8217;s.</p>
<p>The US navy has more than 40 amphibious ships of all kinds, so that there is fair probability that there is one or two at sea not too far from any eventual  hotspot. Obviously, a navy with just one or couple of ships is quite meaningless, as it can be at only one place at a time, but that&#8217;s the whole purpose of coordinating the Europeans navies so they can achieve an operational capability together. Calling that an arm race is just silly.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/shipbuilding/#comment-14299</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:39:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2500#comment-14299</guid>
		<description>Alternatively, if they had had more planes, maybe Sharkey Ward would just have got into double figures..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alternatively, if they had had more planes, maybe Sharkey Ward would just have got into double figures..</p>
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		<title>By: Charly</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/shipbuilding/#comment-14298</link>
		<dc:creator>Charly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2500#comment-14298</guid>
		<description>Seduction always seems to work better on the export model of weapons :-)

So if they had more planes (you don't need the most expensive jets for this) and exocets than they would have won? You can buy a lot for the cost of one warship</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seduction always seems to work better on the export model of weapons <img src='http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
So if they had more planes (you don&#8217;t need the most expensive jets for this) and exocets than they would have won? You can buy a lot for the cost of one warship</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/shipbuilding/#comment-14297</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:19:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2500#comment-14297</guid>
		<description>Nonsense. Even by the time of the Atlantic Conveyor strike, the RN had discovered that Exocet could be "seduced" by electronic countermeasures. And there weren't that many Etendards to carry them in either - it was only a matter of time before a strike package got nailed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nonsense. Even by the time of the Atlantic Conveyor strike, the RN had discovered that Exocet could be &#8220;seduced&#8221; by electronic countermeasures. And there weren&#8217;t that many Etendards to carry them in either - it was only a matter of time before a strike package got nailed.</p>
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		<title>By: Charly</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/shipbuilding/#comment-14296</link>
		<dc:creator>Charly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Apr 2006 15:04:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2500#comment-14296</guid>
		<description>They almost did. Had they had more exocets they would have won</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They almost did. Had they had more exocets they would have won</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/shipbuilding/#comment-14295</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:39:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2500#comment-14295</guid>
		<description>@Peter: yes, ideally suited. The design of the French PA-75 class aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle was influenced by the need to carry out such tasks - she has extra accommodation and medical facilities with a view to receiving refugees. Similarly, as these ships are designed to deliver troops over the beach with command and control, medical, and logistic support remaining aboard for the time being, doing the opposite manoeuvre would be well suited.

@Charley: Which is why the Argentine air force won the Falklands War, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Peter: yes, ideally suited. The design of the French PA-75 class aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle was influenced by the need to carry out such tasks - she has extra accommodation and medical facilities with a view to receiving refugees. Similarly, as these ships are designed to deliver troops over the beach with command and control, medical, and logistic support remaining aboard for the time being, doing the opposite manoeuvre would be well suited.</p>
<p>@Charley: Which is why the Argentine air force won the Falklands War, right?</p>
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