Comments on: Eurabia or Fantasyland? http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/eurabia-or-fantasyland/ European Opinion Thu, 04 Dec 2008 02:33:27 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: Mrs Tilton http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/eurabia-or-fantasyland/#comment-12782 Mrs Tilton Sat, 14 Jan 2006 02:10:23 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2281#comment-12782 Scott and Hektor are on to an important point. In both Europe and America there are gradients of racism, and they are at different concentrations in different places. But there are also qualitative differences in the ragbag of unpleasantnesses we give the common name of 'racism'. I recall a white southern American (a viscerally antiracist American, I should add) telling me that northern and southern American racisms were very different things. Southern white racists (he said) told blacks: be as close as you like, as long as you don't get too big; northern white racists told them, be as big as you like, as long as you don't get too close. Scott and Hektor are on to an important point. In both Europe and America there are gradients of racism, and they are at different concentrations in different places.

But there are also qualitative differences in the ragbag of unpleasantnesses we give the common name of ‘racism’. I recall a white southern American (a viscerally antiracist American, I should add) telling me that northern and southern American racisms were very different things. Southern white racists (he said) told blacks: be as close as you like, as long as you don’t get too big; northern white racists told them, be as big as you like, as long as you don’t get too close.

]]> By: bert http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/eurabia-or-fantasyland/#comment-12781 bert Sat, 14 Jan 2006 00:31:48 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2281#comment-12781 I'd come down on Hektor's side on this. I remember visiting the Musee Royal de L'Afrique Centrale in Brussels and coming away feeling nauseated that such a thing could be allowed to persist (Michaela Wrong writes about it in her 'Footsteps of Mr Kurtz'). But Scott's point - the rashness of generalising about America or Europe - is clearly right. "I am large, I contain multitudes", etc. I think, among a host of other problems, that's the central problem with the Hanson article that tops this thread. I’d come down on Hektor’s side on this.
I remember visiting the Musee Royal de L’Afrique Centrale in Brussels and coming away feeling nauseated that such a thing could be allowed to persist (Michaela Wrong writes about it in her ‘Footsteps of Mr Kurtz’). But Scott’s point - the rashness of generalising about America or Europe - is clearly right. “I am large, I contain multitudes”, etc.

I think, among a host of other problems, that’s the central problem with the Hanson article that tops this thread.

]]> By: Hektor Bim http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/eurabia-or-fantasyland/#comment-12780 Hektor Bim Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:30:07 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2281#comment-12780 I don't think the political ramifications of winking at racism is as simple on either side of the Atlantic. The Danish government certainly seems to be winking at racists, and Edmund Stoiber does more than wink. The rise of anti-immigration laws and attitudes across the continent certainly seem to have propelled parties across the continent. In the US, the Republican party is effectively anti-black, but it's facing cognitive dissonance on its approaches toward Latinos and Arabs. I think Scott Martens is correct - the level of racism is quite different in different parts of Europe and in different parts of the US. John, I have asked black and Arab guys about their impressions of European countries, and (with the exception of the UK, which my acquantainces are not familiar with), they pretty much told me that countries like France, Sweden, Italy, and to a lesser extent Germany are all more racist than the US. Obviously we are talking small statistics here and Europe is even more diverse in many ways than America, so broad generalizations can't easily be drawn. I'm just surprised to see racism as a stock criticism of America in relation to Europe. I don’t think the political ramifications of winking at racism is as simple on either side of the Atlantic. The Danish government certainly seems to be winking at racists, and Edmund Stoiber does more than wink. The rise of anti-immigration laws and attitudes across the continent certainly seem to have propelled parties across the continent.

In the US, the Republican party is effectively anti-black, but it’s facing cognitive dissonance on its approaches toward Latinos and Arabs.

I think Scott Martens is correct - the level of racism is quite different in different parts of Europe and in different parts of the US.

John,

I have asked black and Arab guys about their impressions of European countries, and (with the exception of the UK, which my acquantainces are not familiar with), they pretty much told me that countries like France, Sweden, Italy, and to a lesser extent Germany are all more racist than the US. Obviously we are talking small statistics here and Europe is even more diverse in many ways than America, so broad generalizations can’t easily be drawn.

I’m just surprised to see racism as a stock criticism of America in relation to Europe.

]]> By: Hanson http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/eurabia-or-fantasyland/#comment-12779 Hanson Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:16:30 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2281#comment-12779 The Finance departments in European gsbs will have to change radically once charging of interest is prohibited. Ahh ...it now makes sense to see all of the government bonds being issued with 40+ year maturities... interest payments will be banned by the time these come to maturity...Brilliant! The Finance departments in European gsbs will have to change radically once charging of interest is prohibited. Ahh …it now makes sense to see all of the government bonds being issued with 40+ year maturities… interest payments will be banned by the time these come to maturity…Brilliant!

]]> By: bert http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/eurabia-or-fantasyland/#comment-12778 bert Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:04:53 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2281#comment-12778 Those muslims. A demographic menace; the cause of riots and domestic unrest; their alien morality and degraded customs threatening the moral wellbeing of our society; a fifth column for the scheming rulers of a threatening foreign faith. There's a historical tradition here, with a nicely appropriate label. Those muslims.
A demographic menace; the cause of riots and domestic unrest; their alien morality and degraded customs threatening the moral wellbeing of our society; a fifth column for the scheming rulers of a threatening foreign faith.
There’s a historical tradition here, with a nicely appropriate label.

]]> By: John Montague http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/eurabia-or-fantasyland/#comment-12777 John Montague Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:42:58 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2281#comment-12777 Data from the 2001 census due to be released later this year is expected to confirm that Britain has one of the highest rates in the world of inter-ethnic relationships and, consequently, mixed race people. By 1997 already half of black men and a third of black women in relationships had a white partner according to a major study of ethnic minorities published by the Policy Studies Institute (PSI). http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/changing_face_of_britain.stm Furthermore, just ask a British black guy about his impressions of the US. In my experience, the reaction is on the lines of ‘I thought people were racist in the UK, but it’s nothing compared to what goes down in the US’. Some UK northern towns do exhibit a degree of ethnic segregation, but the communities concerned are neither large enough, nor completely segregated enough, to qualify as ghettoes as social geographers define a ghetto Data from the 2001 census due to be released later this year is expected to confirm that Britain has one of the highest rates in the world of inter-ethnic relationships and, consequently, mixed race people.

By 1997 already half of black men and a third of black women in relationships had a white partner according to a major study of ethnic minorities published by the Policy Studies Institute (PSI).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2002/race/changing_face_of_britain.stm

Furthermore, just ask a British black guy about his impressions of the US. In my experience, the reaction is on the lines of ‘I thought people were racist in the UK, but it’s nothing compared to what goes down in the US’.

Some UK northern towns do exhibit a degree of ethnic segregation, but the communities concerned are neither large enough, nor completely segregated enough, to qualify as ghettoes as social geographers define a ghetto

]]> By: Mrs Tilton http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/eurabia-or-fantasyland/#comment-12776 Mrs Tilton Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:55:19 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2281#comment-12776 Finally, it's worth remembering that racism is much more politically successful in contemporary America than in Europe. In Europe, rightwing parties normally play the coquette with racists as a measure of desperation, and it usually fails to produce results (are you thinking what we're thinking?). In America, the party that has made appeal to racists a cornerstone of its electoral strategy controls all three branches of the federal government, as well as most statehouses in the incest-and-hookworm belt. Finally, it’s worth remembering that racism is much more politically successful in contemporary America than in Europe. In Europe, rightwing parties normally play the coquette with racists as a measure of desperation, and it usually fails to produce results (are you thinking what we’re thinking?). In America, the party that has made appeal to racists a cornerstone of its electoral strategy controls all three branches of the federal government, as well as most statehouses in the incest-and-hookworm belt.

]]> By: Alex http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/eurabia-or-fantasyland/#comment-12775 Alex Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:09:28 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2281#comment-12775 Further, I remember reading somewhere that 44 per cent of (some sample of) Brits have an inter-racial relationship at some point in their lives. I don't remember the source, so this may just be a piece of misleading stats fluff. Regarding northern mill towns, I used to live there and they are very mixed indeed. Bradford has, as well as Kashmiris, Irishmen, Germans, Poles, Ukrainians and Italians in significant numbers.. Further, I remember reading somewhere that 44 per cent of (some sample of) Brits have an inter-racial relationship at some point in their lives. I don’t remember the source, so this may just be a piece of misleading stats fluff.

Regarding northern mill towns, I used to live there and they are very mixed indeed. Bradford has, as well as Kashmiris, Irishmen, Germans, Poles, Ukrainians and Italians in significant numbers..

]]> By: Scott Martens http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/eurabia-or-fantasyland/#comment-12774 Scott Martens Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:03:48 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2281#comment-12774 Once again, from Cameron, we see the truth that underlies this American concern: Europe's low birth rate as a form of racial suicide. Old logics from the segregation era in the US raise their ugly heads again. Nevermind that Europe's Muslim populations, in the second generation, largely speak only the languages of European states. Nevermind that they are as likely to defend the anti-immigrant and culturally integrationist measures of the countries they live in as not. And of course, it's always about sex. Honestly, can't these wingnuts just get laid and stop freaking out about other people's sex lives? To quote Cameron: "the average age of a French women is above the age of child bearing and the French still have ongoing riots." It's kind of funny to put those two things together: Damn those French women for not being more sexually available! It's their fault France has problems! I tell ya, De Gaulle should never have let women get the vote! On to more serious issues: Hektor, 7.9% of the UK population is nominally non-white, so if 2.5% of UK marriages are interracial, and assuming marriage rates are equal in both white and non-white communities, then 31.6% of married non-whites in the UK are married to whites - roughly double the percentage for African Americans. My assumptions may be wrong, but they are likely to be wrong in favour a higher percentage rather than lower, assuming this 2.5% figure is accurate. I suspect Europeans do see America as more racist than Europe, and I agree that they are wrong to do so. I've seen enough racism in Belgium and France of a type that would never be tolerated in the US to show that. However, I'm not sure that a quantitative comparison is possible. Furthermore, America and Europe simply are not uniform. The kind of racism that New Orleans made all too visible in the US would not only be nearly impossible in Europe, it would have been nearly impossible in California. On the other hand, the kind of racial profiling I saw every day in Paris over the Christmas break could never have gone as unremarked in America as it did in France. Every part of the transportation system was heavy with armed police, stopping suspicious characters for offenses as a small as giving lip to SNCF staff. I saw lots of people getting pulled aside by cops, but never once did I see the cops stop someone who wasn't black or brown in appearance. In California, that kind of obviously racist behaviour leads to class action suits. Once again, from Cameron, we see the truth that underlies this American concern: Europe’s low birth rate as a form of racial suicide. Old logics from the segregation era in the US raise their ugly heads again. Nevermind that Europe’s Muslim populations, in the second generation, largely speak only the languages of European states. Nevermind that they are as likely to defend the anti-immigrant and culturally integrationist measures of the countries they live in as not.

And of course, it’s always about sex. Honestly, can’t these wingnuts just get laid and stop freaking out about other people’s sex lives? To quote Cameron: “the average age of a French women is above the age of child bearing and the French still have ongoing riots.” It’s kind of funny to put those two things together: Damn those French women for not being more sexually available! It’s their fault France has problems! I tell ya, De Gaulle should never have let women get the vote!

On to more serious issues:

Hektor, 7.9% of the UK population is nominally non-white, so if 2.5% of UK marriages are interracial, and assuming marriage rates are equal in both white and non-white communities, then 31.6% of married non-whites in the UK are married to whites - roughly double the percentage for African Americans. My assumptions may be wrong, but they are likely to be wrong in favour a higher percentage rather than lower, assuming this 2.5% figure is accurate.

I suspect Europeans do see America as more racist than Europe, and I agree that they are wrong to do so. I’ve seen enough racism in Belgium and France of a type that would never be tolerated in the US to show that. However, I’m not sure that a quantitative comparison is possible. Furthermore, America and Europe simply are not uniform. The kind of racism that New Orleans made all too visible in the US would not only be nearly impossible in Europe, it would have been nearly impossible in California. On the other hand, the kind of racial profiling I saw every day in Paris over the Christmas break could never have gone as unremarked in America as it did in France. Every part of the transportation system was heavy with armed police, stopping suspicious characters for offenses as a small as giving lip to SNCF staff. I saw lots of people getting pulled aside by cops, but never once did I see the cops stop someone who wasn’t black or brown in appearance. In California, that kind of obviously racist behaviour leads to class action suits.

]]> By: Mrs Tilton http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/eurabia-or-fantasyland/#comment-12773 Mrs Tilton Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:36:16 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2281#comment-12773 Thank you for your concern, Cameron. We shall lose time putting your advice into practice. As for 'trading land for peace', would that be anything like the 'trading essential liberties for a little temporary security' that you and your wingnut mates in the USA are so keen on these days? Hmm... somebody once said something rather wise about that trade-off. An American, of all things. You were a different people, in those days. But I don't see why we should think of trading land for peace. We're not the ones currently at war. OK, be gone with you now. Toddle off home to little green footballs, and don't come back. Thank you for your concern, Cameron. We shall lose time putting your advice into practice.

As for ‘trading land for peace’, would that be anything like the ‘trading essential liberties for a little temporary security’ that you and your wingnut mates in the USA are so keen on these days? Hmm… somebody once said something rather wise about that trade-off. An American, of all things. You were a different people, in those days.

But I don’t see why we should think of trading land for peace. We’re not the ones currently at war.

OK, be gone with you now. Toddle off home to little green footballs, and don’t come back.

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