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	<title>Comments on: Danish Pastry Cooking?</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/danish-pastry-cooking/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:23:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: centrist</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/danish-pastry-cooking/#comment-13167</link>
		<dc:creator>centrist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Feb 2006 05:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2333#comment-13167</guid>
		<description>Would we have been so defensive of this paper had the charicatures been directed at Jewish religious symbols? Or would we have condemned it as being anti-semitic? The question isn't the validity of the charicatures - we are after all talking about opinion and free speech, the question is whether such expression would be permitted

Bell the cartoonist for the MG regularly makes caricatures and lampoons elements of Judaism!
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would we have been so defensive of this paper had the charicatures been directed at Jewish religious symbols? Or would we have condemned it as being anti-semitic? The question isn&#8217;t the validity of the charicatures - we are after all talking about opinion and free speech, the question is whether such expression would be permitted</p>
<p>Bell the cartoonist for the MG regularly makes caricatures and lampoons elements of Judaism!</p>
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		<title>By: John Montague</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/danish-pastry-cooking/#comment-13166</link>
		<dc:creator>John Montague</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Feb 2006 00:16:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2333#comment-13166</guid>
		<description>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4670370.stm

Seems the cartoons have been reprinted by newspapers in France, Germany, Spain and Italy. 

How shaming that (as far as I know) no British newspaper has dared to do likewise, as a rebuff to all those who fail to understand that, in the West, it is perfectly acceptable to treat any and all religious belief as backward superstition. Jews are free to believe and preach that they are the chosen people, Catholics are free to teach that the un-baptised child is damned, Jehovah's Witnesses are free to knock on our doors to try to convert us and anyone is free to claim that all prophets are either deluded or liars, or even to point out what is particularly repulsive in a specific set of religious beliefs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4670370.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4670370.stm</a></p>
<p>Seems the cartoons have been reprinted by newspapers in France, Germany, Spain and Italy. </p>
<p>How shaming that (as far as I know) no British newspaper has dared to do likewise, as a rebuff to all those who fail to understand that, in the West, it is perfectly acceptable to treat any and all religious belief as backward superstition. Jews are free to believe and preach that they are the chosen people, Catholics are free to teach that the un-baptised child is damned, Jehovah&#8217;s Witnesses are free to knock on our doors to try to convert us and anyone is free to claim that all prophets are either deluded or liars, or even to point out what is particularly repulsive in a specific set of religious beliefs.</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/danish-pastry-cooking/#comment-13165</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 20:24:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2333#comment-13165</guid>
		<description>What is your own nose? Danes may ridicule only Danes? Or Christians? We have this thing that is called religious freedom, which doesn't grant any religion special priviledges.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is your own nose? Danes may ridicule only Danes? Or Christians? We have this thing that is called religious freedom, which doesn&#8217;t grant any religion special priviledges.</p>
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		<title>By: A</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/danish-pastry-cooking/#comment-13164</link>
		<dc:creator>A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 19:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2333#comment-13164</guid>
		<description>Freedom of speech is one thing.

Distinguishing between picking your own nose or somebody else's is the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Freedom of speech is one thing.</p>
<p>Distinguishing between picking your own nose or somebody else&#8217;s is the other.</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/danish-pastry-cooking/#comment-13163</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 17:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2333#comment-13163</guid>
		<description>These caricatures have little resemblance to traditional antisemitic pieces. These were targeted at a social and cultural stereotype, not at a religion's founder. So the question how the general public would react to a drawing which is unlikely to be published is hard to answer for sure. However, as the public has not reacted strongly to pictures showing central figures of christian mythology covered in excrements, I am confident that the general reaction would have been identical at the core and different in degree. Now you may say that strictly speaking there shouldn't be a difference in degree, but this is an emotional reaction and a religion in whose names trains and subways are blown up is bound to cause a stronger reaction.

As much as Europe has a common religion, it is the doctrine of individual rights. Free speech is in the core of these values. This means there can be no compromise in this matter. We have some limits on free speech, like the ban on the use of certain symbols. Personally I would abolish those limits, but there is a recognisable difference in banning some emotional symbols and banning discussion on the core issue. Freedom of Speech includes that you can say that a religion is a serious ill for mankind and the world would be better of if it had never prospered. This is acceptable only in a secular society and there's no middle ground.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These caricatures have little resemblance to traditional antisemitic pieces. These were targeted at a social and cultural stereotype, not at a religion&#8217;s founder. So the question how the general public would react to a drawing which is unlikely to be published is hard to answer for sure. However, as the public has not reacted strongly to pictures showing central figures of christian mythology covered in excrements, I am confident that the general reaction would have been identical at the core and different in degree. Now you may say that strictly speaking there shouldn&#8217;t be a difference in degree, but this is an emotional reaction and a religion in whose names trains and subways are blown up is bound to cause a stronger reaction.</p>
<p>As much as Europe has a common religion, it is the doctrine of individual rights. Free speech is in the core of these values. This means there can be no compromise in this matter. We have some limits on free speech, like the ban on the use of certain symbols. Personally I would abolish those limits, but there is a recognisable difference in banning some emotional symbols and banning discussion on the core issue. Freedom of Speech includes that you can say that a religion is a serious ill for mankind and the world would be better of if it had never prospered. This is acceptable only in a secular society and there&#8217;s no middle ground.</p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/danish-pastry-cooking/#comment-13162</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 17:05:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2333#comment-13162</guid>
		<description>I'm saddened to say this, but I'm starting to suspect what my mother used to tell me was right - not everyone can get along with each other. Western society has nothing but disdain for the "backwards" Muslims. The Islamic world rages against Western values. Europe has already had to pay a steep price for Muslim immigration - terrorist bombings, riots and political murders. Are we supposed to censor ourselves now as well? Its quite depressing, really.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m saddened to say this, but I&#8217;m starting to suspect what my mother used to tell me was right - not everyone can get along with each other. Western society has nothing but disdain for the &#8220;backwards&#8221; Muslims. The Islamic world rages against Western values. Europe has already had to pay a steep price for Muslim immigration - terrorist bombings, riots and political murders. Are we supposed to censor ourselves now as well? Its quite depressing, really.</p>
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		<title>By: A</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/danish-pastry-cooking/#comment-13161</link>
		<dc:creator>A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 16:41:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2333#comment-13161</guid>
		<description>Basically all the sentiments that once were directed at Jews as "Anti-Semitism" are nowadays directed against Muslims. After all the "Anti-Semitism" is a propaganda word invented by the racist Anti-semites of the 19th century themselves. The runner-up choice that didn't make it was "Anti-Orientalism". 

It's the legal, correct form of being a racist nowadays. Think of the Americans who take a sabbatical to murder and rape in Iraq, then go back to a normal life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Basically all the sentiments that once were directed at Jews as &#8220;Anti-Semitism&#8221; are nowadays directed against Muslims. After all the &#8220;Anti-Semitism&#8221; is a propaganda word invented by the racist Anti-semites of the 19th century themselves. The runner-up choice that didn&#8217;t make it was &#8220;Anti-Orientalism&#8221;. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s the legal, correct form of being a racist nowadays. Think of the Americans who take a sabbatical to murder and rape in Iraq, then go back to a normal life.</p>
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		<title>By: Edward</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/danish-pastry-cooking/#comment-13160</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 16:06:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2333#comment-13160</guid>
		<description>Incidentally, I was just watching a TV face-to-face here about Hamas, between a representative of the Palestinian Authority and a local University Lecturer.

Inevitably the question of the Danish cartoons came up. One thing struck me: the name Jesus didn't come up. The PA rep directly compared the attitude of EU governments with similar charicatures of Moses.

Christianity here seems to be an irrelevance. The issue being raised is to we treat Judaism and Islam differently? 

Would we have been so defensive of this paper had the charicatures been directed at Jewish religious symbols? Or would we have condemned it as being anti-semitic? The question isn't the validity of the charicatures - we are after all talking about opinion and free speech, the question is whether such expression would be permitted.

I think that should give all of us some food for thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Incidentally, I was just watching a TV face-to-face here about Hamas, between a representative of the Palestinian Authority and a local University Lecturer.</p>
<p>Inevitably the question of the Danish cartoons came up. One thing struck me: the name Jesus didn&#8217;t come up. The PA rep directly compared the attitude of EU governments with similar charicatures of Moses.</p>
<p>Christianity here seems to be an irrelevance. The issue being raised is to we treat Judaism and Islam differently? </p>
<p>Would we have been so defensive of this paper had the charicatures been directed at Jewish religious symbols? Or would we have condemned it as being anti-semitic? The question isn&#8217;t the validity of the charicatures - we are after all talking about opinion and free speech, the question is whether such expression would be permitted.</p>
<p>I think that should give all of us some food for thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Edward</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/danish-pastry-cooking/#comment-13159</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 13:36:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2333#comment-13159</guid>
		<description>Incidentally, for other reasons (see Spain hot labour post) I'm reading the Morocco times this morning. It seems the Moroccan Supreme Council of Ulemas has also condemned the drawings. (Incidentally, the article is in the religion and not the political section of the paper). What is interesting is the wording:

Morocco condemned on Tuesday the publication of satirical cartoons on Prophet Mohammed in a Danish newspaper, regretting it came to provoke Muslim's feelings, said a release of the Moroccan Supreme Council of Ulemas.

The council has also criticized the use of freedom of expression to attack millions of Muslims who reject the humiliation of any prophet, from Adam to Muhammad, including Moses and Jesus.

The Council urged the wise and decision makers around the world to unite to protect freedom and all the ethical values that are threatened by hatred and irresponsible behaviors.

The Council, which is presided over by King Mohammed VI, includes 15 members, heads of the thirty regional councils of Ulema, the Minister of Islamic affairs, and a secretary general.

I mean I think we need to distinguish between those who take a Bazooka and shoot at Danish military somewhere, or attack Danish official property, and those who simply say "we have been offended by this". The Vatican is known not to be too happy about the Da Vinci Code (eg).

The whole article is worth a read:

http://www.moroccotimes.com/Paper/article.asp?idr=2&#038;id=12526</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Incidentally, for other reasons (see Spain hot labour post) I&#8217;m reading the Morocco times this morning. It seems the Moroccan Supreme Council of Ulemas has also condemned the drawings. (Incidentally, the article is in the religion and not the political section of the paper). What is interesting is the wording:</p>
<p>Morocco condemned on Tuesday the publication of satirical cartoons on Prophet Mohammed in a Danish newspaper, regretting it came to provoke Muslim&#8217;s feelings, said a release of the Moroccan Supreme Council of Ulemas.</p>
<p>The council has also criticized the use of freedom of expression to attack millions of Muslims who reject the humiliation of any prophet, from Adam to Muhammad, including Moses and Jesus.</p>
<p>The Council urged the wise and decision makers around the world to unite to protect freedom and all the ethical values that are threatened by hatred and irresponsible behaviors.</p>
<p>The Council, which is presided over by King Mohammed VI, includes 15 members, heads of the thirty regional councils of Ulema, the Minister of Islamic affairs, and a secretary general.</p>
<p>I mean I think we need to distinguish between those who take a Bazooka and shoot at Danish military somewhere, or attack Danish official property, and those who simply say &#8220;we have been offended by this&#8221;. The Vatican is known not to be too happy about the Da Vinci Code (eg).</p>
<p>The whole article is worth a read:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.moroccotimes.com/Paper/article.asp?idr=2&#038;id=12526" rel="nofollow">http://www.moroccotimes.com/Paper/article.asp?idr=2&#038;id=12526</a></p>
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		<title>By: Edward</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/danish-pastry-cooking/#comment-13158</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 13:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2333#comment-13158</guid>
		<description>"He basically said that we shouldn't accept Muslim kids calling Danish girls whores as had happened on numeruous occasions to his own kids."

You know the Liverpool I gew up in could sometimes be a pretty rough place. It was not an uncommon event in a pub for someone sitting on the other side of the bar to say to you 'who are you looking at mate?'. Now one reponse could be say 'you', stand up, and let all mayhem descend. As I grew up I think I realised that a far better strategy was to sup my pint without undue haste and leave discretely at the first opportunity. I now know that this process is called using 'emotional intelligence' and that what distinguishes us (normally) from other higher primates is our ability to do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;He basically said that we shouldn&#8217;t accept Muslim kids calling Danish girls whores as had happened on numeruous occasions to his own kids.&#8221;</p>
<p>You know the Liverpool I gew up in could sometimes be a pretty rough place. It was not an uncommon event in a pub for someone sitting on the other side of the bar to say to you &#8216;who are you looking at mate?&#8217;. Now one reponse could be say &#8216;you&#8217;, stand up, and let all mayhem descend. As I grew up I think I realised that a far better strategy was to sup my pint without undue haste and leave discretely at the first opportunity. I now know that this process is called using &#8216;emotional intelligence&#8217; and that what distinguishes us (normally) from other higher primates is our ability to do so.</p>
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