Comments on: A Little Archipelago http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/a-little-archipelago/ European Opinion Thu, 04 Dec 2008 02:40:06 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: Michael S. http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/a-little-archipelago/#comment-11565 Michael S. Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:06:32 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2046#comment-11565 Are you discussing ethics or efficiency? Both, but the argument is applicable to either one. Are you discussing ethics or efficiency?

Both, but the argument is applicable to either one.

]]> By: Oliver http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/a-little-archipelago/#comment-11564 Oliver Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:06:02 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2046#comment-11564 Are you discussing ethics or efficiency? Are you discussing ethics or efficiency?

]]> By: Michael S. http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/a-little-archipelago/#comment-11563 Michael S. Mon, 07 Nov 2005 21:23:34 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2046#comment-11563 Oliver, Giving your reactions public expression seems practical enough to me. Political pressures have historically played an important role in whether questionable covert operations are reined in or are given free hand. As far as a generalized notion of public debate goes, moral outrage seems the right kind of thing to bring to the table. Ethical questions have to be assessed in the face of uncertainty, to the degree that one cares to think about them. I, personally, don't generally find popular criticism of the government aesthetically compelling. It's usually ill-considered, rarely entirely fair, and never fully informed. At the same time, it's about the only tool that the people have for steering the actions of its components between elections. In some cases it can even prompt a beneficial structural overhaul. Oliver,

Giving your reactions public expression seems practical enough to me. Political pressures have historically played an important role in whether questionable covert operations are reined in or are given free hand. As far as a generalized notion of public debate goes, moral outrage seems the right kind of thing to bring to the table. Ethical questions have to be assessed in the face of uncertainty, to the degree that one cares to think about them.

I, personally, don’t generally find popular criticism of the government aesthetically compelling. It’s usually ill-considered, rarely entirely fair, and never fully informed. At the same time, it’s about the only tool that the people have for steering the actions of its components between elections. In some cases it can even prompt a beneficial structural overhaul.

]]> By: Lucian Sandor http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/a-little-archipelago/#comment-11562 Lucian Sandor Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:42:17 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2046#comment-11562 As a Romanian, I have to protest: Americans do learn from history. You see, we changed sides in WW2, e.g. After fall of communism, we could stick with the so-called CSI (as the neighbours, Moldova and Serbia, did), but we didn't. It doesn't matter, because whatever we chose, when you're living in Balkans, you're busted. When it's not the Turks, is the Russians, then the Germans or Austrians, or, now, there's the US. But nobody trusts Romania anymore, be it Colgate-Palmolive, War Crimes Tribunal, FMI, EU, UEFA - you name it. For a matter of fact I've talked to a colleague who went to Iraq as a Romanian military and he told they never get out of that rat cage called military camp. They were just to show the "coallition" has more nations than a regular American college would put on its flyers. So, when it comes to the real villains, the terrorist suspects, how can the US trust Romania? I bet they are making arrests here, maybe they are using some facility as a temp station, but in no way someone intelligent won't count on Romania on the long term. Not even me. As a Romanian, I have to protest: Americans do learn from history.
You see, we changed sides in WW2, e.g. After fall of communism, we could stick with the so-called CSI (as the neighbours, Moldova and Serbia, did), but we didn’t. It doesn’t matter, because whatever we chose, when you’re living in Balkans, you’re busted. When it’s not the Turks, is the Russians, then the Germans or Austrians, or, now, there’s the US.
But nobody trusts Romania anymore, be it Colgate-Palmolive, War Crimes Tribunal, FMI, EU, UEFA - you name it.
For a matter of fact I’ve talked to a colleague who went to Iraq as a Romanian military and he told they never get out of that rat cage called military camp. They were just to show the “coallition” has more nations than a regular American college would put on its flyers.
So, when it comes to the real villains, the terrorist suspects, how can the US trust Romania? I bet they are making arrests here, maybe they are using some facility as a temp station, but in no way someone intelligent won’t count on Romania on the long term.
Not even me.

]]> By: Oliver http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/a-little-archipelago/#comment-11561 Oliver Mon, 07 Nov 2005 12:08:10 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2046#comment-11561 What would the others be? You may of course say that the government is incompetent. You'd have reasonable evidence. Or rather you may distrust, but what could be done about it? What would the others be?
You may of course say that the government is incompetent. You’d have reasonable evidence.
Or rather you may distrust, but what could be done about it?

]]> By: Michael http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/a-little-archipelago/#comment-11560 Michael Mon, 07 Nov 2005 04:15:22 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2046#comment-11560 verification would destroy its object That just leads to necessary uncertainty, to which trust is but one reaction. verification would destroy its object

That just leads to necessary uncertainty, to which trust is but one reaction.

]]> By: Oliver http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/a-little-archipelago/#comment-11559 Oliver Sat, 05 Nov 2005 21:05:08 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2046#comment-11559 Because government requires some amount of secrecy to work. I don't say that you should trust because there's evidence, but because verification would destroy its object. Because government requires some amount of secrecy to work. I don’t say that you should trust because there’s evidence, but because verification would destroy its object.

]]> By: Hektor Bim http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/a-little-archipelago/#comment-11558 Hektor Bim Sat, 05 Nov 2005 20:57:14 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2046#comment-11558 I don't trust the government on this issue, mostly on the basis of efficiency. They are not capable of getting adequate intelligence or planning for a successful war, based on Iraq, so why should I trust that they can run gulags in an efficient and useful manner? I don’t trust the government on this issue, mostly on the basis of efficiency. They are not capable of getting adequate intelligence or planning for a successful war, based on Iraq, so why should I trust that they can run gulags in an efficient and useful manner?

]]> By: Oliver http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/a-little-archipelago/#comment-11557 Oliver Sat, 05 Nov 2005 01:32:18 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2046#comment-11557 No, I am not. It would be a catastrophe if I were. Such information must not become public. It may shock you, but I fear governments must be trusted on this. We must preserve our ability to wage war. This means some pretty horrible things and it means maintaining a unified command, which has these means at its disposal. We may question our governments' efficiency, but we are seeing moral outrage. Frankly, there's little sense in outrage over this, while governments are maintaining genocidal arsenals of weapons. No, I am not. It would be a catastrophe if I were. Such information must not become public. It may shock you, but I fear governments must be trusted on this. We must preserve our ability to wage war. This means some pretty horrible things and it means maintaining a unified command, which has these means at its disposal.
We may question our governments’ efficiency, but we are seeing moral outrage. Frankly, there’s little sense in outrage over this, while governments are maintaining genocidal arsenals of weapons.

]]> By: Hektor Bim http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/europe-and-the-world/a-little-archipelago/#comment-11556 Hektor Bim Sat, 05 Nov 2005 00:42:16 +0000 http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=2046#comment-11556 Oliver, Not necessarily in this case. What evidence do we have that these interrogations and disappearances have actually helped our national security. It is certain that things like Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo have hurt our national security by providing pretexts for terrorist recruitment. Are you sure that the information, if any, gained by these interrogations outweighs the damage? I am not. Oliver,

Not necessarily in this case. What evidence do we have that these interrogations and disappearances have actually helped our national security. It is certain that things like Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo have hurt our national security by providing pretexts for terrorist recruitment. Are you sure that the information, if any, gained by these interrogations outweighs the damage? I am not.

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