In between trying to deal with one of Europe’s worst economic crises and a crippling series of strikes, the Papandreou government in Greece has introduced a new immigration law. It would allow the children of immigrants to apply for Greek citizenship, provided that
(1) their parents have lived legally in Greece for at least 10 years, and
(2) the child has completed at least three years of schooling in Greece.
By one estimate, over 250,000 children and young adults would qualify for citizenship. As many as 100,000 of those may be of voting age.
This is a huge, huge deal. In order to understand why, you have to understand the odd position of immigrants in Greek society.
Immigrants began pouring into Greece from its former Communist neighbors in the early 1990s. The biggest group by far was Albanians — about 2/3 of all immigrants are Albanian — but there are also tens of thousands of Bulgarians and Macedonians and a sprinkling of people from further abroad (Ukrainians, Filipinos, you name it). Today nearly ten percent of Greece’s population is immigrants, and almost 20% of the workforce.
However: almost none of these immigrants have been allowed to apply for citizenship. In fact, Greece’s immigration system is quite deliberately set up to make this almost impossible. Instead, immigrant workers are allowed a work/residence permit for a maximum of one year. The bureaucracy that oversees the immigration system is famously opaque and sluggish, so workers (or their employers) must apply for permits many months in advance. Even so, the old permit often expires before the new one is granted.
In fact, citizenship by naturalization is almost unknown in Greece. Greek law recognizes citizenship jus sanguinis, “by blood”, through at least one Greek parent. Otherwise… well, the naturalization process is so difficult that the number of new Greek citizens from naturalization is a few hundred per year.
Previous Greek governments operated under the assumption that Greece simply did not want non-Greek citizens, and that guest workers were just that — temporary guests. The system was thus designed to keep immigrant workers on a perpetual treadmill, always either applying for a new permit, about to apply, or nervously waiting for one after the old one expired. All the immigrants were thus vulnerable to expulsion for any reason or none: feature, not bug.
But this consensus is now breaking down. Part of the reason is simply the passage of time. 20 years after the first wave of immigrants arrived, there are now tens of thousands of Albanians and Bulgarians who have been in Greece nonstop for most of their adult lives. They own houses or apartments, speak fluent Greek, and are settled members of their communities. Furthermore, there are now about a quarter of a milllion children of immigrants; in some schools, they outnumber native Greeks.
If a child is born in Greece, speaks perfect Greek, wants to live in Greece, and is willing to swear loyalty to the Greek state — should that child be allowed Greek citizenship?
The Papandreou administration is saying yes. However, it’s not quite that easy.
A fierce nationalist backlash has already appeared. Parties of the right — especially the odious LAOS — are accusing the administration of “diluting Hellenism” and betraying the spirit of the nation. The Greek Orthodox Church has not made a formal statement, but it’s clearly unenthusiastic about a bill that would allow thousands of Muslims and Catholics to become Greek.
And while most of the nationalist rhetoric is irrational (and much of it is outright hateful), there is a real point here. If this law is passed, or one like it, then within a generation betwen 5% and 10% of Greece’s population may not be ethnic Greeks. They’ll be hyphenated: Albanian-Greeks, Bulgarian-Greeks, Pakistani-Greeks. In a country that is over 90% self-identified ethnic Greeks, this is going to be an incredibly fast and dramatic change.
That said, there is precedent. It seems to have been forgotten by almost all parties to the debate, but something like this has happened in Greece before. At the time of Greek independence, back in the 19th century, something between 5% and 10% of Greece’s population spoke… Albanian.
The “Arvanites” were ethnic Albanians of the Orthodox faith. They moved into the penninsula during late Byzantine and early Ottoman times; by independence, they had been there for centuries. They spoke Albanian and were culturally slightly different from their Greek neighbors, but there was little discrimination or hostility between the groups. They were united by a common Orthodox faith and a common resentment of their Turkish rulers. Intermarriage was common, and Arvanites who left their villages quickly became bilingual in Greek.
More to the point, the long war of independence cemented the Arvanites into the Greek nation. After a decade of fighting alongside the ethnic Greeks against the Turks, they came to consider themselves, not Albanians, but Greeks who happened to speak Albanian at home. Over the next 180 years, the Arvanites steadily assimilated into Greece. Today only a handful speak Arvanite even at home, and they do not like being called “Albanian”.
Arvanites have been Presidents and Prime Ministers, generals and admirals, artists and businessmen and scholars. The current Archbishop of Athens, head of the Greek Orthodox Church, is an Arvanite. Nobody gives it a moment’s thought. Being an Arvanite is a complete non-issue in Greece.
So Greece has managed to assimilate a large non-Greek population once already. (Arguably more than once. But the population transfers of the 20th century are a touchy topic. Some other time, perhaps.)
That said, this is going to be a very fraught and difficult law to pass. And whether it passes, and if so in what form, is going to have a huge impact on Greece’s future.
Watching with interest.
Follow afoe on Twitter
Follow afoe on Facebook
Feed: A Fistful of Euros
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:08 am
[...] Greece changes its draconian immigration policy and decides to allow children of immigrants to apply for citizenship.Close [...]
February 23rd, 2010 at 12:56 pm
Please note:
Bulgaria is in EU, they are not immigrants !!!
50% of immigrants are Albanians, the other 40%
are from third world counties.
Catholic immigrant in Greece? The shortest joke!!!
Ethnic Albanians back in 19th century !!! The second shortest joke !!!
February 23rd, 2010 at 1:56 pm
“Bulgaria is in EU, they are not immigrants”
Er… yes, they are.
Unlike Albanians or others, they get automatic right of residence, but they’re still not eligible for citizenship.
“Catholic immigrant in Greece? The shortest joke!!!”
I’m not sure what the joke is. There are a couple of hundred thousand of them — including roughly 30-40,000 Filipinos, 40-50,000 Catholic Albanians, and 40,000 Poles.
(There are also around 50,000 native Greek Catholics.)
“Ethnic Albanians back in 19th century !!! The second shortest joke !!!”
Again, I’m not sure what the joke is. The Arvanites are descended from ethnic Albanians, they’ve been in Greece for hundreds of years, and they’ve been a huge part of Greek history since independence. Again, five or six Prime Ministers have been Arvanite or part-Arvanite, and the current Archishop of Athens, Ieronymos II, grew up speaking Arvanitika as well as Greek.
This isn’t particularly mysterious or controversial. Just google “Arvanite” and start clicking.
Doug M.
February 23rd, 2010 at 3:19 pm
I don’t know what the requirements for gettin a citizenship in the rest of Europe are but the ones proposed by Papandreou look very loose to me.5 years in Greece and you are grantedcitizenship?That looks like an open invitation to the whole world,come in Greece stay for 5 years and the door to the whole Europe is open.
Besides i wonder,a large percentage of those who will get citiznship( i guess around 70%) are going to be Muslims.How willing will those people and their children be to serve at the greek army and potentially fight against Turks,their muslim brothers.Because let’s be honest,Turkey-Greece tense relations are the only reason Greee has compulsory military service.
Finally Greek Government should look at other western countries.In Germany Turks arrived in 60s,how
February 23rd, 2010 at 3:33 pm
“5 years in Greece and you are granted citizenship?”
No. That’s not what it says.
Doug M.
February 23rd, 2010 at 3:51 pm
The assimilation of Arvanites is not the only one that occured in Greece. Similarily, the Aromanians (who were speaking a language similar to Romanian) were either pushed to emigrate to Romania (mainly) in 1920′s and 30′s or welcomed into the mainstream Greek society.
February 23rd, 2010 at 6:10 pm
Sorry. Greeks ARE Albanians, at least genetically. Haplotype profiles of the two nations are very close. They’re about as close to each other as Northern and Southern Germans.
The ancient Greeks are extinct race. They were absorbed by other Balkan nations and left only (slightly altered) language.
Today’s Greek are basically Greek-speaking Albanians. That’s what the genes say.
February 23rd, 2010 at 6:35 pm
Pavel from Prague,
Interesting take, I never heard that before. Do you have any basis for your claim? Albanians have always been a mystery to me. Untill lately I beleived they were turks and for some reasons it seems that was the general european perception and as they were isolated to th eoutside world, nobody cared to challenge that perception or care about them at all. However I have been reading some research lateley and it does seem tocome to the conclusion that they are the oldest inhabitants of the balkans. Also interesting research suggests that most ancient grrek words cannot explained but in albanian and have no meaning in the current modern greek language. I am starting to look into learning some albanian language but it is not an easy language. As a linguist one would look at the name places (usually they survive the invasions but it is not always the case). If you take for instance Ionian see that means nothing in greece whereas in albanian it is deti ion which means our see. Also I found countless examples like this with with other things. Alexander in albanian seem to means “a le ne anderr“ which literary means “born like in the dream“ Not that this proves anything but interesting when you know that Alexander`s mother Olivia was most probably albanian according his biography. Anyway it is the most reasonable explanation I have heard regarding the origin of the name alexander. So now that the albania is open to the outside world I am sure more research will be conducted regarding those people that we know so little about.
February 23rd, 2010 at 6:40 pm
Greece is a long way behind the game: which is perhaps why the potential numbers are so large.
Roman law placed “place of origin” (jus soli) as well as “parentage” (jus sanguinis) on the same level. For most states jus sanguinis proved acceptable until, in more modern times (eg from the 19th century), immigration started to happen on a larger scale than previously. Thus, many nations, struggling (as Greece) with large numbers of immigrants and their descendants had to resolve whether jus sanguinis alone was sufficient.
France had laid down the rules followed by most of Europe (jus sanguinis) but has, since, added and subtracted various forms of jus soli – in line with US and UK changed policy.
I wish the Greek government well in their venture – but predict it will cause more trouble within Greece than the economic problems.
NB the word “nationality” began to be used legally only towards the beginning of the 19th C.
February 23rd, 2010 at 6:55 pm
This is good news. If greeks do rise up against this it’s only because they have something to fear, they’re unsure of themselves. God knows how much history and culture theyve claimed from others and frantically attempted to hellenize, and now they fear the people who are already at their doorstep and partially inside their homes. I think greece is an interesting case of a nation built on propaganda that merits studying by scientists.
February 23rd, 2010 at 6:59 pm
P.S. Let’s not forget that its common for politicians to bring up identity issues when they want to take away the attention of the public from how bad their economy is!
As I said above, if the greek government means this for real, then its good news. But they would need something this BIG to take the attention away from whats going on, and even this probably won’t do it.
February 23rd, 2010 at 7:02 pm
Alexander http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=alexander&searchmode=none
Ionian http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=ionian&searchmode=none
Please do yourself a favor and use some scientific sources for your continuing education and not some trashy nationalistic pseudo-scientific Balkan site (and that includes some Greek ones). Absurd pseudo-linguistic theories are a common method for nationalistic propaganda in the Balkans.
February 23rd, 2010 at 7:14 pm
Nationalistic propaganda also expands to various dubious gene-related research. If one is interested one can find ‘gene-researches’ ‘proving’ that Greeks are Africans, albanians, Slavs, Philippinos or whatever have you.
The fact is that a significant percentage of modern Greeks descent from Arvanite origins. This no more and no less than a natural consequence of the fact that many peoples have been sharing a common geographical area (the greater Balkans, Southern Italy, Sicily, Asia Minor and Northern Africa) for very long. Be suspicious of any theories putting more significance to issues like this than this simple fact.
February 23rd, 2010 at 7:30 pm
Nation building started in the Balkans under Ottoman rule during the late 18th, 19th and early 20th century modeled after the French and Italian nation building processes. Some nation building is happening even as we speak (e.g countries of former Yugoslavia). Nation building requires national myths. National myths are based on historical facts but distorted / censored to fit the requirements of nation building. This has not been only a Greek ‘priviledge’. It applies to all nation building in the Balkans, in Europe and probably all over the world.
February 23rd, 2010 at 7:43 pm
Mr. Muir,
While I find your expose of the Greek immigrant situation quite insightful, I would be hesitant to use the term ‘ethnic Albanians’ (as well as ‘ethnic Greeks, or ‘ethnic whatever’) when referring to people groups occupying the Balkan peninsula during the Byzantine or early Ottoman periods. For lack of a better term it’s better to refer to these peoples based on the language that they spoke. Thus Albanian (or Arvanite) speaking, Greek, Bulgarian or Turkish speaking are terms which I believe are more historically appropriate.
February 23rd, 2010 at 8:11 pm
@NikosR,
You’re right to say that “ethnic Albanians” is somehwat anachronistic. That said, the Arvanites were Albanian-speaking and seem to have come from what is now Albania, more or less.
I agree firmly on the issue of national myths. Much of what is now taken for granted as “national character” and “national legends” is in fact the product of deliberate nation-building in the 19th century.
Also firm agreement about trashy pseudo-linguistic theories. There are some good ones — the linguistic work on the handful of surviving Thracian words, for instance — but you need to step very, very carefully.
There are some interesting stories hidden in the gene assays. That said, yes, gene frequencies in the Balkans tend to slop bonelessly across modern national borders.
Doug M.
February 23rd, 2010 at 8:36 pm
Mr. Muir,
Just a small (but quite significant) addition to your list of peoples who have immigrated to Greece in the last 10 years or so. An increasing number of them come from Africa, the Indian sub-continent, Iraq and Afghanistan.
There are quite a few distinct differences between them and the immigrants from the former Communist countries.
Three of them are
a. That there’s no hope for these people to sometime acquire automatically the right of residence and work due to their country joining the EU
b. That there’s very little opportunity or will on their side to return to their home countries at some point and
c. There is even less opportunity for them to integrate than its is for immigrants from European countries.
Let me also point out that Europe has demonstrated very little support to Greece in dealing with those waves of immigrants (I remind that Greece is a EU ‘border’ country and thus one of the main recipients of immigrants into the EU).
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:37 pm
Nikos, I have never heard of any study showing greeks are africans, but I have heard of african migrations to greece (and to sicily), beeing that its right there. That should be understandable. I think people who say there are such studies are just exaggerating for effect, to disprove some other things on which there are studies.
I’ve noticed that greeks reject the use of the word “ethnic” when it refers to other ethnicities present in greece, but not when referring to themselves. Greeks claim they are ethnic descendants of the ancient greeks for example. Interesting how in this case the argument that ethnicities didn’t exist then, doesnt apply, but it applies to arvanites.
I said earlier, the greek elites fear the existence of “others” in greece, and thats why they fear accepting it also.
My question to you is: if the arvanites who were instrumental in founding the greek state were not ethnic albanians, do you by the same token concede that the greeks who founded the greek state were also not ethnic greeks? They were all greek speakers and albanian speakers alike, no?!
Doug, in your original article you said that greece has been able to assimilate foreigners before, so it should be able to again. Thing is, that times have changed.Access to information is greater. People can keep closer communication ties with their home countries.When the arvanites were being assimilated laws were passed that made it illegal to speak albanian in public, and thats why as you touched on, arvanites were known as “greeks who happened to speak albanian at home”. They couldn’t speak it anywhere else besides home, and that led to assimilation. No press was allowed or schools. That would be very hard to enforce today even if human rights groups and the EU allowed you to pass such laws.
While back then the work plan was that you force people to assimilate in your country, today the developed countries follow a liberal path where minorities are recognized and are supposed to be helped in promoting their culture. So assimilation won’t be as easy as it was then, in fact i’d say it’ll be impossible. Integration should be the goal, if anything.
The third reason why its not the same is that when the arvanites were assimilated they had no stable, respectable home country or country of origin to look to. Albania was still under ottoman control, and even after it got independence it was in no way their solid rock to look to for support. Nowadays, although still not powerful, albania is in a much better position to look after its minorities around the region. It’s now a NATO member. For example, a whole lot of children’s books in albanian were sent to the children of albanian immigrants in greece for new year’s just recently. Although few, albanian schools in greece have opened up, and some literature in albanian is printed there. That will make assimilation impossible.
And the greek government knows all this, thats why the status of immigrants in greece has been in limbo for so long, and thats why it will probably remain that way.
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:55 pm
@mirakulous
I believe my comment which you refer to, contains the answer to the question you are posing to me. You just have to read it.
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:58 pm
Excellent. Honest greeks that will go out on a limb and admit this are rare and much appreciated. Wouldn’t be surprised a flurry of deniers starts posting below me.
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:03 pm
@mirakulous 2
Theoretizing is all fine. The reality is different. As many Greeks do, I employ a nice Albanian lady who does the house cleaning for me (myself being a hopeless and helpless bachelor). She, her husband who works as a roof builder and their two children live not far for my place (which just happens to be an old Arvanite village not far from Athens, now considered almost an Athenian suburb). At least one of their two children has been born here. I doubt their children (approx 7 and 10 in age) speak any Albanian, and ‘m sure they speak Greek amongst themselves and to their parents as I have frequently attested by overhearing conversations between their mother and them over the mobile phone. FWIW
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:09 pm
That’s all great nikos. I was theoretizing. I was speaking generally. Sure since you live in a small village access to information is much smaller. Are you sure that this is the case with every albanian child born and growing up in athens, where 1 in 5 people is an albanian immigrant? Are you sure that the education level of the parents is the same? An uneducated parent is likely not to care about his mother tongue and wouldn’t teach it to his child in a foreign country. But someone who has studied past high school or who is a teacher by trade (not a cleaner and roof builder) will be much more likely to teach their children their mother tongue. Also, most immigrant children(I speak from personal experience) dont grow up in early childhood loving their country of origin. It’s something that people take on actually when theyre mature (18+), its something you take on when you start thinking about your existence. I doubt 7 year olds think much beyond how cool blue toys are, and how nice toy cars are! Just saying….maybe my personal experience gives me a deeper understanding. Give those kids you know 10 more years, and a few more yearly visits to their grandparents in albania(hypothetically speaking of course, but reality is most kids born in immigration have grandparents in their country of origin), and have them move to athens and start looking for people of their kind; you’ll see exactly what im talking about.
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:10 pm
@mirakulous 3
They are not rare. They are just less vocal as most non-nationalistic people all over the Balkans tend to be. You have met (?) the wrong people.
Hard-core nationalism in Greece (with the possible exception of matters related to our Turkish neighbors) was IMO an old fashioned and dying thing up until the 90′s when some of our neighbors started doing their best to revive it…Every action causes a reaction. Unfortunately.
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:15 pm
Maybe theyre not rare as you say. It’s probably not that I’ve met the wrong people. It’s that greek official politics is like that, while the average person may not be. I had realized this as well, but I do believe that if a government feeds its people the same food everyday, they start liking it no matter what.I should hold a more critical view of greek politics rather than greek people though, youre right.
P.S. I live in canada, and it might be interesting for you to know, that greek immigrants here are ALL ultra-nationalists,even though their knowledge of greek history is minute. Irony is a bitch!
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:15 pm
@mirakulous 4
As I said, I don’t live in a small village. I live in an Athenian suburb. And even if I were, it’s been a long time (maybe 40 years?) since access to information was restricted for inhabitants of small villages in Greece..
IMO Immigrants in general want to be assimilated.. wrong choice of word maybe integrate would be better. It’s when they are not allowed to and they are marginalized that things start to get sour. Action – Reaction you know?
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:25 pm
@mirakulous 5
There’s no way someone fortunate enough to live in a ‘new’ country like Canada, the US or Australia to really get a grasp of the very real issues with regards to national identity, immigration etc etc that are a reality in one of the old world countries. These ‘new’ countries were built taking multi-ethnicity as granted (and even so they haven’t managed to totally avoid the perils of racism as you probably well know). One has to take the time to really study otherwise one can easily fall victim of projecting one’s references to a non applicable framework.
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:27 pm
Sure. I understand completely. I still stand by my conviction that things are different in suburbs from what they are in cities.
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:29 pm
I completely agree. Due to lack of information, thats why somethings become more extreme here, and not just by greek immigrants, but immigrants of all balkan countries. Its like a brand new land where they can bring the nationalism over and “spread” it.
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:43 pm
@mirakulous 6
Immigrants tend to be some of the most nationalistic of all people. This is true whether you are Greek, Turk, Bulgarian, Albanian, or whatever have you. You only have to look into various blogs and forums to realise that. I also don’t think it’s only a Balkan thing. I can’t readily explain this phenomenon, I can guess but it is really a question for the sociologists to answer.
February 24th, 2010 at 12:22 am
Admittedly I’m unfamiliar with the history…this was a fascinating walk-through for me. Thank you.
February 24th, 2010 at 7:24 am
very interesting analysis Doug.
The Papandreu government happened to surprise me in the positive sense. This government seems to be distancing itself not only in immigrant issues from that nasty backward nationalism that used to define greek coinage among both the left and the right until lately. The heavy and very popular reaction of LAOS was actually to be expected. Five or so decades of collective brain washing do not go away in a snap.
Actually during the Albanian communist regime the population was exposed to very similar brain washing techniques. Yet, with time the discrepancy of state propaganda and reality became so obvious and grotesque that nobody believed to any propaganda any more. And the metamorphosis of communism to turbo nationalism that was so successful in Ex Yougoslavia and which was the last resort of the communist elite to regenerate its power could only fail in Albania.
Speaking of which I think it was ultimately the steady corrosion of belief in the system as well as in it’s elites caused by the discrepancy of propaganda and reality that led to the crumbling from within of the entire eastern block and the large failure of reformers (aka. Gorbatschov). Not any Reaganite toughness. To the least sign of weakness people seem to desert a system in which they do not believe anymore. In the west despite heavy economic crisis capitalism has never been questioned. Anyway this is off topic.
February 24th, 2010 at 6:12 pm
They let the Irish into the U.S. and 150 years later the economy collapsed. Greece should be careful.
February 24th, 2010 at 6:34 pm
I forgot the Great Depression. It only took 80 years.
February 24th, 2010 at 7:21 pm
NikosR
I agree that those issues are hot potatoes in the Balkans; one has to look at the virulence of your comments if some doubts are raised about Greek history.
Just because things are accepted by the general opinion, that does not make them true. Most history is written by winners and research is mostly based on the previous writings sometimes with the intent of producing the result in the sponsor’s mind and very often without genuine research.
From your link:
Alexander = alexein (to defend) + andros (man)
For a linguist, you have to explain how alexein + andros evolved to alexandre. If anything this would evolve to andros-alexein in ancient Greek but never to alexein-andros. This is like accepting an evolution to Bourg-stras instead of Strasbourg from a linguistic point of view. Also why would they name him defender of man when he was born without having knowledge of his future deeds? Are you saying he had a different name at birth and was called Alexander after he was victorious? The Albanian story is not less valid than what the Greek one in my opinion. And I find lots of inconsistencies with countless other Greek myths which can be explained in a much more simple way in Albanian language. So if Occam razors principle were to be applied, many Greek myths would be shattered.
Now will we be more advanced if we found out that Alexander was Albanian rather than Greek or Macedonian, I think not, and it is pointless to pursue the discussion on this basis, but those issues can be of sentimental interest to the Balkan nations.
Ancient Greek heritage is patrimony of all humanity and for modern Greeks claiming themselves decedents of ancient Greece is as farfetched as for present day Egyptians claiming themselves as direct decedents of ancient Egypt.
Have a look at the magnificent statues of ancient Greeks and have a look around people in the streets of Greece to find someone having a faint resemblance to them (just joking!)
So, it seems Greeks cheated their way in history just as they did to get in EU…maybe after all that Trojan horse is all Greece is about
February 24th, 2010 at 8:08 pm
Most history is written by winners
Which may explain why the most widely-known Greek of the past 500 years is either the guy who married JFK’s widow or the guy who played the dad on Webster.
February 24th, 2010 at 10:18 pm
“So, it seems Greeks cheated their way in history just as they did to get in EU…maybe after all that Trojan horse is all Greece is about”
that is the funniest thing I have heard for today I am still laughing…
February 24th, 2010 at 10:33 pm
@phillipe
You obviously don’t know what you are talking about now, do you? You don’t really believe your ignorant post deserves a serious answer.
February 25th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
Too many issues to start here:
1)Although not very relevant, Alexander=he who makes men run away, genetic studies are done by a company hired by phony Macedonian Gruevski and co and are of course not worth wasting any space.
2)At the time of the greek revolution, religion was a much stronger force than origin. What percentage of modern day Turks have non-turkish origin or DNA(jennisaries)? You do not call them ethnic Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks or whatever! As far as the revolutionaries were concerned, there were Turks and Turkalbanians(meaning moslem Albanians). There were no Albanians(with any sort of national conscience) in ancient times
3)With regard to citizenship issues: In this
particular case, I think the government is more extremist than LAOS. What LAOS is saying is that
this is a decision with potentially far-reaching consequences(since citizenship cannot be revoked) and has to be approved
by a referendum(which Greece has never held since 1974!). This would legitimize such a decision and not be subject to cancellation by the next government. This makes LAOS look a lot more democratic than the government, a government which is only in power because of monumental incompetence and corruption by the previous government.
4)By any measure the proposed law is extremist: The reasonable thing to do is that citizenship is not a right, but a provilege that countries grant to people who also see it an an honor and who deserve it. Take for example Switzerland. If the local community likes you, you are granted citizenship. If not, it does not matter if you live there for 10 generations and if you speak all official swiss languages flawlessly.
This would also be the logical thing here:
People who have been in the country long enough, who have a flawless record, who integrate with the rest of the community instead of forming their own ghettos, who share the values of the society and consider themselves greek, should get citizenship. The way the law is it has several flaws and does NOT address major concerns such as:
-citizenship is a right, even for childern by fanatical islamic parents who are raised to think that war against the infidels is their first duty. The bombings in London for example were done by such second and 3rd generation CITIZENS. So there is a risk that Greece will have the fortunes of London, Paris or Madrid, or the murders in Holland and the attempts in Denmark. Why exactly does one need that? And what exactly does the government do to mitigate that risk? Answer: Nothing
-The Kossovo precedent. What exactly is there to guarantee that a NON-integrated minority concentrates in some region, intimidates away the local population and asks for independence?
The Arvanite example is a good one: You can have any origin, as long as you are integrated and no one cares.
-Citizenship is denied ONLY if one has a final, non-appealable CRIMINAL conviction. This means that an immigrant kid who is a school bully and threatens his classmates with a knife will still get citizenship. Even if one ends ups with such a conviction, chances are that he will have received citizenship before the judicial process is over.
The government tries to paint those opposed to this law as “fascist, racist, xenophones”. The fact is that the majority has huge reservations, not based on DNA and jus sanguini, but on legitimate concerns that the government does not and cannot answer.
5)As for Albanians: Albanians often have not helped their own case because many crimes have been commited by Albanians. In two recent cases, one last week, one yesterday, Albanian criminals were arrested with heavy equipment, including kalashnikofs and grenades. The details are not important(in at least one case the problem lied with the greek justice /furlough system)As far as this law is concerned, however, Albanians are not seen as a threat, because most are well-integrated; the main concern is islamic immigrants whose values are to a large extent incompatible with western values and because of that do not integrate well.
Last, an unbelievable position by a pro-government newspaper(unfortunately the article is in greek)
http://www.tanea.gr/default.asp?pid=10&ct=13&artID=4561866
Basically it says: We give them citizenship and passports, so they can go to other EU countries!
This is much worse than any cooking up of statistical data.
February 25th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
Citizenship is a human right and it cannot be denied by referendum. There are cases of second generation immigrants not having a citizenship anywhere in the world, neither in Greece nor in their parents country. First generation immigrants also deserve rights (like the promised vote for the municipal elections). You just can’t justify having second class citizens in a society for whatever reason, not in this age and time anyway.
February 25th, 2010 at 5:37 pm
Chris, you’re way off on many things you say.
2) Ancient times there were only turkoalbanians? You say ethnicity doesn’t exist, but that only applies to albanians clearly, because if you’re referring to “turks” then you’re referring to a background. Also, 150 years ago was ancient times??? Are you for real?
4) You say that switzerland’s citizenship laws are “logical” in this case. Buddy, greece aint switzerland. First of all, that law is a remnant of medieval times in switzerland, and if you speak to a few average swiss people they’ll tell you how stupid and outdated that law is. Second, switzerland hasn’t expelled and massacred people of a different ethnic background and mother tongue, and thats why it is what it is today. Greece is actually pretty close to the complete opposite. You’re comparing a country that denies any people of a different background have ever lived in it, to a country that recognizes and cherishes its ethnic diversity. So no, it is not “the logical thing” to do in this case, and the analogy is way off.
Also, in the same point you speak of the kosovo precedent, and you clearly don’t understand the case of kosovo, or you’re just spreading propaganda. In kosovo, an unintegrated minority(90+% is a minority now?) didn’t just concentrate in 1 area and ask for independence. They were living in that area before that area was annexed by serbia. A peoples that are oppressed asking for independence is hardly a precedent set by kosovo. Greece did the same thing when it got independence from the ottomans.
A kosovo case could’ve happened in greece as well with chameria, but the greek government took care of that, exactly for fear of this happening. So such a thing is not possible to happen in greece nowadays.
5) As for this case, albanians have committed many crimes in greece, but a lot more of them haven’t! Media always focuses on the immigrants when economy isnt doing well. Look at Italy taking offense to romanians the past 2 years as their economy spiraled. This is the oldest trick in the book. Having someone to point at who’s a foreigner and saying how bad he is, helps brings cohesion and unity in a nation. The germans used the jews for that, greece uses the albanians, italy uses albanians/romanians, france uses arabs, etc etc; this is common.
How many media are focusing on the immigrants that came to greece, learned a brand new language, have children that excel in the school system (better than greek children in many cases), open successful businesses, work jobs that greeks dont want to do, etc etc? Not many!
As for your recent examples of crime, I read on the news (just recently as u did), that a greek woman walked into a maternity and stole the baby of an albanian couple! So should we say that greeks are criminals now? That’s not a good way to characterize crime; crime doesn’t follow an ethnic background. Taking examples of greeks committing crimes, or albanians, and saying this ethnicity or that ethnicity, respectively are criminals is idiotic. Criminals are criminals, in any nationality, and they carry out their “business” with no regard for borders.
In closing you said: Basically it says: We give them citizenship and passports, so they can go to other EU countries!
Great, then PROBLEM SOLVED! You don’t have to worry about your fictitious “kosovo precedent”, and people not integrating, and if theyve gone away they cant commit crimes in greece, no?!;)
Thought I should close with a little sarcastic humor.
February 25th, 2010 at 11:39 pm
mirakulous,
I agree with your comments and I am greek and workf for amnesty international here. I can tell you that for each crime comitted by the immigrants here, there is at least one comited by our police forces towards the foreigners here. Greek society like most balkan societies is deeply racist and it still has to come to terms with ideas of superior greek superiority especially towards her neighbours. Our police is one of the most brutual and immigrants are beatten up in horrendous ways by policeman and never investigated. Also the proportion of crimes committed by immigrants in comparision to locals is negligent but most newspapers want to report them whenever an immigrant is involved. The majority of crimes that were investigated by my team where immigrants were involved was because they were employed by locals illegally , not paid for the work done, and having no recourse to the greek judicial system as they dont have papers they returned to viloence against their employer. i am ashamed to say this but greek society is much more like similar to balkan societies than european, let alone switzerland. we have nothing in common with them. I am sure Greek will turn against europe as soon as we realise that there is no more money coming here from EU. We are no better than the avearage corrupt mediterrean country that got a lot of free money fron the EU. Shame on us for all the waste.
February 25th, 2010 at 11:54 pm
Well thanks for your honesty nikolas. If i had said all the things you said, I’m sure no one would’ve believed me.Even still, I’m sure many people will argue vehemently with you. All the years of propaganda since WWII about greek superiority, will take sometime to be undone. But you’re the second person that comments here that at least realizes that there are some problems. So there is hope to be had.
Personally, I have first cousins who were born in greece, and thats why so many things are almost like first hand knowledge to me, about the plight of immigrants.
Hopefully the deep crisis greece is in right now will help people finally see whats going on. Or they’ll blame immigrants once again and the cycle which has gripped the balkans will carry on. I’d like to think positively though.
February 26th, 2010 at 1:24 am
According to greek police immigrants are responsible for
-49.46 % of robberies
-50.87 % of thefts
-37.57% of homicides
-48.36 % of rapes
When 10 % of the population is responsible for alomost half of the heavy crimes,i’m sorry but there is a serious problem.
February 26th, 2010 at 2:54 am
@K-Rose
Care to provide a link for your findings? Even if the police really gave out those statistics, they should be taken with a large grain of salt. If statistics for the EU can be doctored to the tune of billions I wont even consider looking at what the greek police stats say. This is not to say that there are no problems with the immigrants here, but they are not different than problems with greeks who are jobless. The problem is joblessness not immigration. I think we as a society in greece are in denial and have some of the most corrupt politicians in EU and this has to change or change shall be forced upon us.
February 26th, 2010 at 3:06 am
@K-Rose.
Even if those stats are true, which i highly doubt (someone who can lie to EU authorities will lie to anyone), those things are true in all countries that have gone through similar experiences, and for all immigrants. If you wanna be a country that accepts large amounts of immigrants, then you better be ready to accept the responsibility that comes with that. True, greece didn’t ask for immigrants, but it didn’t deport them back either. If you deport a few, they’ll stop coming. But instead greece kept them there, with their official status in limbo, gained from their cheap labour, and then scapegoats them for every ill of greek society.If they’re all such bad criminals I’m surprised most of them are going on 15-20 years living in greece. You can’t have it both ways; you cant keep them and not deal with the changes they bring to your society, and blame them for structural problems which were their before.
USA and Canada (my home) are immigrant countries, accept a lot of them and were pretty much built by them. But after theyre accepted the government takes responsibility and assures that the social life doesn’t deteriorate as a result. As we say here: Man up to your responsibilities!
February 26th, 2010 at 6:56 am
@point74:”Citizenship is a human right and it cannot be denied by referendum.”
We are not talking revoking it, which would be a violation(and this is why such an irrevocable decision should be approved by a popular vote); we are talking granting it which is a different thing.
Your position is absurd: Why of all countries should Greece be the one to grant citizenship to all the citizenship-less(actually they still have a citizenship, they just left their country of origin). Why not all countries collectively? why not the US, Russian, China?
“There are cases of second generation immigrants not having a citizenship anywhere in the world, neither in Greece nor in their parents country.”
This is by choice of their parents. Why is it a problem of Greece in particular? What you are talking here is you save someone, take them in your house, then they make a case that they co-own the house!
“First generation immigrants also deserve rights (like the promised vote for the municipal elections)”
Who promised them that? because as a citizen I do not recall ever making such a promise!
“You just can’t justify having second class citizens in a society for whatever reason, not in this age and time anyway.”
Illegal immigrants are NOT citizens. They do not have the same rights or obligations. They did not have to do a military service, why should they have the same rights? I have lived and worked in a number of countries. Should I also have had a vote there cause I lived there for 10 years? Go tell Americans that!
February 26th, 2010 at 7:30 am
@miraculous:
“2) Ancient times there were only turkoalbanians? ”
Can you read English?? I say “As far as the revolutionaries were concerned”. What part of this don;t you get, that by 1821 there were moslem turkalbanians and christian arvanites who had nothing in common with turkalbanians. Ancient times means some 500-300 years before Christ. Epiros had a King, (Pyrros”pyrrhic victory”) who had a number of fights with the Romans. In no place is he or anyone else referred as ‘Albanian’. Get a grip!
“First of all, that law is a remnant of medieval times in switzerland, and if you speak to a few average swiss people they’ll tell you how stupid and outdated that law is.”
Bull! The Swiss have referenda and they can change this law if they really thought it stupid.
“Second, switzerland hasn’t expelled and massacred people of a different ethnic background and mother tongue, and thats why it is what it is today.”
Unlike… Albania?
” Greece is actually pretty close to the complete opposite.”
Wow! Whom did Greece expell and massacre? Unless you mean turkish occipiers?
” You’re comparing a country that denies any people of a different background have ever lived in it, to a country that recognizes and cherishes its ethnic diversity.”
Who denies this? Sure, Turks (+ forcibly converted) have lived in it, and a number of others, like Venetians. What’s your point? You want to speak for ‘ethnic origin’ on behalf of Greek citizens? Did anyone appoint you to speak for them?
” A peoples that are oppressed asking for independence is hardly a precedent set by kosovo.”
Again, what don’t you get? Kossovo precedent is that borders can change. Whether Kossovo Albanians were there since 1913 or since the beggining of time is irrelevant; once you are a citizen, it does not matter what your origins are-all citizens have the same right.
“A kosovo case could’ve happened in greece as well with chameria, but the greek government took care of that, exactly for fear of this happening.”
What are you smoking? What Greek government? Are you referring to the Nazi scums responsible for mass excecutions of greek villagers duing the occupation? Chams left in 1944, after they got a taste of their own medicin at the hands of EDES, a partizan organization. Greece HAD no government in 1944. The government in Greece was your friend Adolf, to whom your Cham nazi scum can complain if they thing they were wronged and not allowed to keep their holy plan of cleansing the area!
“5) As for this case, albanians have committed many crimes in greece, but a lot more of them haven’t! ”
Agreed. Albania opened the jails when Alia’s regime fell and also the military depots when the pyramid scheme came crashing down during the first Berisha term. I was the one who pointed out Greece’s fault in one of the recent case. But the point is that a)Greece must be tougher, not more lenient on immigration to prevent criminal elements and b)it remains to be shown that the benefits outweigh the risks. Because there are real victims as a result of the increased criminal activities. When the borders opened, people who were public contractors were very happy to get cheap labor; the rest were unhappy to have to buy alarm systems(if they could afford them). Part of the problem is due to greek authorities inefficiency and/or criminal neglect. But while this will take a lot of time to fix, victims are for real!
“How many media are focusing on the immigrants that came to greece, learned a brand new language, have children that excel in the school system (better than greek children in many cases), open successful businesses, work jobs that greeks dont want to do, etc etc?”
You’re completely wrong on this!
“As for your recent examples of crime, I read on the news (just recently as u did), that a greek woman walked into a maternity and stole the baby of an albanian couple! So should we say that greeks are criminals now?”
If you had bothered to read my post, you would see that my point is that we need tougher restrictions and screening, just like other countries, like Canada and the US do. I never branded any nationality collectively as criminal. But just like for example greek statistics fudging reflects on me(and a number of openly racist articles have appeared in the european press), in the same way Albanians get a bad rap because of these criminals.
” Criminals are criminals, in any nationality, and they carry out their “business” with no regard for borders.”
Agreed 100%.
“In closing you said: Basically it says: We give them citizenship and passports, so they can go to other EU countries!”
Read again! This was a newspaper article. Readers were outraged at this idea because it
is even worse cheating than fudging statistics!
February 26th, 2010 at 7:31 am
@chris
USA, Russia and China dont have 10% or more of their population made up of immigrants with no status. Greece does, and thats why greece should find a solution, to a problem that greece has.
Clearly you have something to fear and are insecure. What co-owning the house? What case are turks in germany making of co-owning germany? You do realize that EU citizens can come to greece from anywhere in the EU; arent you afraid some irishmen will eventually make a case that they co-own your house?
“Illegal immigrants are NOT citizens. ”
Really? Since they’re so illegal, why don’t you send them back then? The problem would be solved.
Also, are children that were born there illegally born as well? If so, send them back too I guess.
If you give them citizen status, they will have the obligations that come with it too. Go and ask naturalized americans, if they don’t also have the obligations as well as the rights that come with being american(since you’ve lived and worked there). America has a president that is the son of a black african immigrant, and you’re trying to draw a parallel between greece and america? Please get serious!!
February 26th, 2010 at 7:45 am
@nikolas:
” I am greek and workf for amnesty international here”
Ok, I see.
“I can tell you that for each crime comitted by the immigrants here, there is at least one comited by our police forces towards the foreigners here.”
…because this is what you would like reality to be
“Greek society like most balkan societies is deeply racist”
… again because this is what you would like reality to be, you don’t need to explain anything. Really, speak for yourself. Did anyone appoint you to speak for greek society?
” and it still has to come to terms with ideas of superior greek superiority especially towards her neighbours”
Superior superiotity! What a concept!
“Our police is one of the most brutual”
Have you ever been in another country? Like Germany? The US? The police has to
a)sit there and listen to any wacko psychopaths call them pigs and murderers. The law says if this happens to a citizen, the offender must be arrested. Yet the police just sits there. Try saying these things to a US or german cop.
b) police are shot and have been injured or killed as a result of completely unprovoked attack.
The points: First, when your life is in danger, you tend to be less friendly. Second, you cannot attract quality people to the police because quality people do not wish to risk their lives and have to take all this abuse for peanut pay. And you have a number of critics who sit on their couch and just critisize. If you believe police are not doing their job right, the solution is simple: become a cop yourself and then show them how the job is done right. Meanwhile the others can sit on a couch and critisize your actions!
“and immigrants are beatten up in horrendous ways by policeman and never investigated.”
Never investigated?
“Also the proportion of crimes committed by immigrants in comparision to locals is negligent but most newspapers want to report them whenever an immigrant is involved.”
Answeed already: Look up jails
” The majority of crimes that were investigated by my team where immigrants were involved was because they were employed by locals illegally , not paid for the work done, and having no recourse to the greek judicial system as they dont have papers they returned to viloence against their employer.”
This has also happened with many greeks. Working without a contract relies on trust.
“i am ashamed to say this but greek society is much more like similar to balkan societies than european, let alone switzerland”
Please speak for yourself. Greek society is very varied. You will find many different attitudes and styles. Just like we make no comments aboy this or that nationality being bad, stop making stupid racist remarks, or keep them to characterize yourself.
February 26th, 2010 at 7:49 am
@chris
Who said anything about pirro? You get a grip. Clearly you’re feeling threatened, because you’re trying to anticipate what I’m going to say it seems. I never had any intention of mentioning him or going that far back. I was curious as to how someone can refer to the 1800s as “ancient times”. Thats all.
“Bull! The Swiss have referenda and they can change this law if they really thought it stupid.”
Yea and turnout in those referendums is 60% on a good day. It’s bull that just a few weeks ago TIME had a piece saying how switzerland was democracy gone crazy, with their option to have referenda on everything. But anyway, doesn’t change the fact that its an outdated law that’s a remnant from previous centuries.
“Wow! Whom did Greece expell and massacre? Unless you mean turkish occipiers?”
That depends. Depends on whether you read world history, or greek history. I realize that everything changes in greece. I’ll let you run a google search, or encarta, or britannia or even wikipedia. You seem to know how to read, and seem to have a good grip on english; so you shouldn’t have a problem understanding what the search results will return.
“Who denies this? Sure, Turks (+ forcibly converted) have lived in it, and a number of others, like Venetians. What’s your point? You want to speak for ‘ethnic origin’ on behalf of Greek citizens? Did anyone appoint you to speak for them?”
No, but neither were you. If we were going to speak only on what authorized by some body of decision making, then no one would ever speak here. Even this piece wouldn’t have been written by the author, if that was the case. You need to realize that people have a right to express opinions.
“Again, what don’t you get? Kossovo precedent is that borders can change.”
Really? No borders ever changed before 2008? Wow how empty human history just got. What you don’t seem to understand is that borders change, and then they also change back some 8 or 9 decades later. Also, in Europe pretty much every nation’s case is a special case, so there is no precedent. ICJ will probably say the same thing. So greece shouldn’t worry about its borders.
“The government in Greece was your friend Adolf, to whom your Cham nazi scum can complain if they thing they were wronged and not allowed to keep their holy plan of cleansing the area!”
I already touched upon earlier about how there is greek history and world history, so i wont get into that. What i will say is that “your friend Adolf” is completely uncalled for and irresponsible of you to say. You don’t know me, and you certainly don’t have the right to put me in the same category as people you label as “nazi scum”. If you want to keep things serious, and have a serious debate, fine, if not then just don’t reply to me rather than being a degenerate. I’ll leave it at that.
February 26th, 2010 at 9:26 am
“Who said anything about pirro?”
READ before you comment. I taled about the 1800s(“turkalbanians &arvanites”) and also mentioned that in ancient times there was nobody identified as ‘Albanian’. Only mentioned ancient times because you mentioned it ‘Ancient times were only turkalbanians’, when I never talked about ancient times! Hope to have cleared this.
“Clearly you’re feeling threatened, because you’re trying to anticipate what I’m going to say it seems.”
Are you trying to play shrink? I was merely trying to guess why on earth you mentioned ancient times.
“Yea and turnout in those referendums is 60% on a good day. It’s bull that just a few weeks ago TIME had a piece saying how switzerland was democracy gone crazy, with their option to have referenda on everything”.
It’s called democracy, you know. Since when was TIME the ultimate judge? TIME is a business and will print what suits their interests.
“But anyway, doesn’t change the fact that its an outdated law that’s a remnant from previous centuries.”
Your opinion, which of course is the ultimate truth. But I see neither Albania, nor Canada giving citizenship to everybody. Otherwise it would be simple to ship all immigrants from Greece to Canada or Albania where life is much better, society more friendly and you can get citizenship when you land.
“I’ll let you run a google search, or encarta, or britannia or even wikipedia.”
Here is what I found:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Massacres_in_Greece
1.Athens Polytechnic uprising in 1973
2.Chios Massacre refers to the slaughter of tens of thousands of Greeks on the island of Chios by Ottoman troops in 1822
3.The Distomo massacre was a Nazi war crime perpetrated by members of the Waffen-SS in the village of Distomo, Greece, during the Axis occupation of Greece during World War II.
4.Massacre of Kalavryta (, refers to the extermination of the male population and the subsequent total destruction of the town of Kalavryta, in Greece, by German occupying forces during World War II on 13 December 1943
5.The Razing of Kandanos or the Holocaust of Kandanos refers to the complete destruction of the village of Kandanos in Western Crete (Greece) and the execution of several of its inhabitants on 3 June 1941 by German occupying forces during World War II
6.The Kasos massacre was the massacre of Greek civilians during the Greek War of Independence.
On 7 June 1824, Mehmet Ali’s men landed on Kasos and killed around 7,000 inhabitants
7.The Massacre of Kondomari refers to the execution of male civilians from the village of Kondomari in Crete by an ad hoc firing squad consisting of German paratroopers on 2 June 1941 during World War II.
8.The Massacre of the Acqui Division (, also known as the Cephalonia Massacre , was the mass execution of the men of the Italian 33rd Acqui Infantry Division by the Germans in the island of Kefalonia, Greece,
9.The Mesovouno massacre) refers to two massacres perpetrated by members of the Wehrmacht in the village of Mesovouno in Ptolemaida, Greece, during the Axis occupation of Greece, carried out on 23 October 1941 and 22 April 1944.[1]
10.Navarino Massacre[1] was one of a series of massacres that occurred following the outbreak of the Greek War of Independence, which resulted in the extermination of the Turkish civilian population previously inhabiting the region.
11.The Paramythia executions, also known as the Paramythia massacre (19-29 September 1943) was a combined Nazi and Cham Albanian war crime perpetrated by members of the 1st Mountain Division and the Muslim Cham militia in the town of Paramythia and its surrounding region, during the Axis occupation of Greece. 201 Greek villagers were murdered and 19 municipalities in the region of Paramythia were destroyed
12.the Massacre of Tripolitsa, which occurred after the city’s fall to the Greeks…It was also a potent symbol for revenge, its Greek population having been repeatedly massacred by the Ottomans in the past: the latest such event, a few months earlier, followed after the failed rebellion at Moldavia in early 1821; previous massacres of the town’s Greeks occurred in 1715 (during the Ottoman reconquest of the Morea) and on Holy Monday, 29 March 1770, after the failed Orlov Revolt.[9][10]
13.The Tarlis incident is the name given to the killing of 17 Bulgarian peasants by a Greek officer on July 27, 1924 at Tarlis (present-day Vathitopos), a mountainous village in the Drama region near Greek-Bulgarian borders…Doksakis at the head of 10 Greek soldiers led bound captives via a mountain trail bypassing the public road between Tarlis and Gorno Vrondi. He returned five hours later to announce that his squad was attacked by Bulgarian commitadzis, and that when detainees tried to escape he was forced to kill 17 of them.
14.The Massacre of Thessalonica was a retaliatory action by the Roman Emperor Theodosius I in 390 against the inhabitants of Thessalonica, who had risen in revolt.
Care to elaborate which ones you refer to? Because ony 10, 12 and 13 can possibly be blamed on greeks. 10 and 12 were more than justified and 13 involved 17 people and is disputed.
“You need to realize that people have a right to express opinions.”
Yes, but first state them as opinions and second, nobody has to take these opinions seriously, when they are unsubstantiated or clearly crazy.
“Every case in Europe is special”. So Helsinki does not apply? In any case, if there is a problem, you will not be asked to solve it…
“You don’t know me, and you certainly don’t have the right to put me in the same category as people you label as “nazi scum”.”
Read again what YOU wrote:
“A kosovo case could’ve happened in greece as well with chameria, but the greek government took care of that, exactly for fear of this happening.”
Either deliberately, or out of ignorance you spread a LIE, as I showed you since there WAS NO GREEK GOVERNMENT AT THE TIME. If you did take the time to learn about Chams, at least do bother to learn the WHOLE story. So, I will backtrack and say “their friend” instead of “your friend” if you also backtrack these accusations about the non-existent greek government.
February 26th, 2010 at 9:44 am
@mirakulous:
“USA, Russia and China dont have 10% or more of their population made up of immigrants with no status. Greece does, and thats why greece should find a solution, to a problem that greece has.”
Why is it a problem that Greece has? These people made a choice” It is better in Greece with no status than in their countries with full status”. Unlike Italy, we do not let them drown, but we never promised them citizenship.
We cannot offer citizenship to all of Asia and Africa. Much larger countries do not and Greece is not a big country.
“Clearly you have something to fear and are insecure. What co-owning the house?”
Again playing shrink? Yes, citizenship means these people vote and can pass laws that affect my life. Citizenship is irrevokable and if we get some 5mil moslem immigrants, this means they can vote and impose their saria law on me. Hell, no! Only people integrated who share our values should get citizenship, just like everywhere else.
” You do realize that EU citizens can come to greece from anywhere in the EU; arent you afraid some irishmen will eventually make a case that they co-own your house?”
No. Irish do not vote in Greece and greeks do not vote in Ireland. And they are not particularly fond of saria law either.
“Really? Since they’re so illegal, why don’t you send them back then? The problem would be solved.”
The answer is humanitarian reasons. Also note that they do not want to go back. Do you really think anyone in Greece profits from Pakistanis in every corner wiping the car windows while the car waits for the light to turn green?
“Also, are children that were born there illegally born as well? If so, send them back too I guess.”
Children are innocent, but that does not mean they should automatically get citizenship.
“If you give them citizen status, they will have the obligations that come with it too. Go and ask naturalized americans, if they don’t also have the obligations as well as the rights that come with being american(since you’ve lived and worked there).”
Do you also think you can cross into the US, and demand citizenship? Have you ever heard of California’s proposition 209?
Other than that, I am absolutely clear on this: Those who become citizens, should be full citizens. Just that this is not an automatic right, but a privilege to be earned and awarded only to the very best, who are well integrated and share our values. Just like every other country.
February 26th, 2010 at 10:30 am
Folks, this is a moderated forum. We’ve deleted comments in the past, and will again if need be. Play nice.
Also, long comments are annoying and hard to read. Either keep them short, or break them up, please.
Doug M.
February 26th, 2010 at 10:47 am
@ chris (and others): First, you are all playing along with the government’s plan, ie you’re getting all hot and bothered about this issue than about the economic crisis. This is exactly what Sarkozy has done in France.
Second, on investigation, I’m wondering why the government might want to consider a change in their nationality laws anyway. At present, Greek nationality can be granted after 5 years’ permanent residence following an acceptable request. You have to swear a loyalty oath and must receive a good “morality” report (I pass over whether this might extend to understanding how the system of bribery …. joke!). You don’t need to be able to speak Greek, know anything of the country’s history, nor even show you have adequate income. And, chris, you’re right: a criminal record is not taken into account.
chris, you mention Italy: they require 10 years’ permanent residence and nothing more than that!
I got these details from “Access to citizenship: a comparison of 25 nationality laws” by Patrick Weil, in “Citizenship today: global perspectives and practices” ed Aleinkoff & Klusmeyer, Carnegie International Peace Foundation 2001.
Getting into any country through illegal means is – well – illegal. And that is the case in the EU, the US and just about every country. Some get more worked up about it than others: the EU and the US especially.
February 26th, 2010 at 11:00 am
@french derek:”I’m wondering why the government might want to consider a change in their nationality laws anyway.”(especialy in the midst of a crisis)
Good question. Why divide when you need all the unity you can get? But then again noone ever accused Mr. Papandreou or any other greek politician for that matter of being bright.
@doug: Point on length taken. Point on moderation, does it refer to anything I wrote?
February 26th, 2010 at 11:57 am
“At present, Greek nationality can be granted after 5 years’ permanent residence following an acceptable request.”
In theory. In practice, this almost never happens.
Under the current system, the state can reject citizenship applications for any reason, or for none at all. The number of naturalizations granted to people who are neither ethnic Greeks nor married to ethnic Greeks is tiny — a few hundred a year.
The Papandreou legislation would turn this around: the government would *have to* grant citizenship to people who meet the requrements, unless it can show a good reason not to.
Doug M.
February 26th, 2010 at 12:03 pm
“they require 10 years’ permanent residence and nothing more than that!”
…it’s worth checking how many people actually naturalize. In Italy, the number — discounting ethnic Italians and people married to ethnic Italians — is around 20,000 per year.
That’s a lot more than in Greece, true. OTOH it’s pretty small given how easy the formal requirement is, no? Italy has, ohh, probably a couple of million people who’ve been permanent residents for ten years or more. Yet only about 1% of them are getting naturalized per year.
– Actually getting naturalized in Italy is no easy thing. It’s possible, but it’s definitely not “Oh, you’ve been here ten years? welcome! here’s your passport!”
Doug M.
February 26th, 2010 at 12:19 pm
“Under the current system, the state can reject citizenship applications for any reason, or for none at all.”
No different than the greek state treats grek citizens: They can be convicted for any reason for example, or no reason at all. So?
” The number of naturalizations granted to people who are neither ethnic Greeks nor married to ethnic Greeks is tiny — a few hundred a year.”
Why is this bad? Naturalizing the best and only those that are integrated is desirable. Why should there be a quota?
“The Papandreou legislation would turn this around: the government would *have to* grant citizenship to people who meet the requrements, unless it can show a good reason not to.”
…and that reason would be appelable in courts, including the European Courts….
“Actually getting naturalized in Italy is no easy thing. It’s possible, but it’s definitely not “Oh, you’ve been here ten years? welcome! here’s your passport!””
Why should it be easy? It’s not about being admitted in a country club.
February 26th, 2010 at 1:12 pm
Noted in passing: Canada has about 34 million people, or about three times the population of Greece.
Just over 5 million Canadians — about one person in seven — are naturalized immigrants. If we remove immigrants from culturally similar Britain, Ireland and the US, this figure drops to just under 4 million, or about 11% of the population.
Canada is currently naturalizing about 150,000 people per year. If we eliminate Americans, Irish and Brits it’s still well over 100,000. About 50,000 new citizens per year are coming from poor or very poor countries in Africa and Asia.
Of course, this has resulted in Canada’s swift descent into crime, terrorism, welfare dependency and complete social collapse. So there’s that.
Doug M.
February 26th, 2010 at 2:05 pm
On the other hand, Canada actually is a tolerant and working multi-cultural society, which is also prepared to handle immigration and naturalization of immigrants successfully.
Greece is… well, it’s Greece. It’s sort of like trying to put a saddle on a cow.
(And let’s keep in mind that nativism, anti-immigration populism, ethnocentrism, racism and other assorted forms of hysteria are on a steep rise also in the Nordic countries, my own homeland included.)
Cheers,
J. J.
February 26th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
Canada is a vast industrialized country with institutions that work(at any rate much better than in Greece). I do not know about Canada, but most countries, like the US, the UK and so on have sophisticated surveillance and law/security enforcement that does a much better job at preventing crime and terrorism than does Greece. Still, the UK for example was not able to avert the London bombings. Still, Canada puts a limit on those it can naturalize. Otherwise, I would assume most immigrants would rather emigrate to Canada than Greece.
A tolerant and working multi-cultural society
in the Balkans was Yugoslavia. Multi-culturalism does not have only success stories.
In general one should understand what one is doing and what the implications are. And part of being is a democracy is that people have the right to decide about changes that will affect their lives and the lives of their children.
February 26th, 2010 at 4:35 pm
Chris, the concept of democracy is not the only pillar of open and modern societies, one of which Greece claims to be.
If an imaginary and perfectly democratic referendum would take place in Greece today to imprison all emigrants I’m not so sure about the outcome. For that matter the mythical “tolerant” Swiss banned minaretes of which Switzerland has by now exactly 4 also in a perfectly democratic referendum. And things do not look much better in Germany or France.
Yet, there is something almost irrelevant which should be taken into account. Let’s start with a couple of basic human rights. I think, here is the difference between Greece and Germany, France etc. Other than in Greece, rule of law and human rights in those countries are not just pieces of paper to cheat the way into an undeserved membership to a community of modern societies.
If you let emigrants drudge for almost 10 or 20 years in a country and grant them almost no rights and even worse grant their children no rights, well, that is a human right problem. Don’t make the mistakes others (Germany) has made before you by thinking the emigrants/gastarbeiter are temporary. Those emigrants are going to stay because after 15-20 years they have nowhere else to go no matter how long or how hard LAOS calls “you are born Greek”. Deal with it.
February 26th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
@chris.
Read what you said in the first post of yours I commented: ‘As far as the revolutionaries were concerned, there were Turks and Turkalbanians(meaning moslem Albanians). There were no Albanians(with any sort of national conscience) in ancient times.’
So its pretty clear who was talking about ancient times in the 1800s. Let’s drop this now please.
TIME is not the ultimate judge on anything.It’s a much better judge than some guy on a blog online though.
Also, my opinion is not the ultimate truth, but it’s pretty clear to those that think that if something was enacted centuries ago, then its centuries old. It’s very simple really. But you see this is the kind of smartass stuff people say when they don’t have a real answer, the comment on who the “ultimate judge” or “ultimate truth” is. If you wanna talk about those then you’re in the wrong place because there is no such thing here.
As for your massacres, I was talking about massacres by greeks and not just in greece, so you probably entered the wrong search. It’s okay, I know you’re playing stupid.
I was talking about the massacres carried out by zervas, such as this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Cham_Albanians
February 26th, 2010 at 5:34 pm
@chris
“In any case, if there is a problem, you will not be asked to solve it”
And neither will you. Whats your point?!Or is it just lack of a serious answer? No one here will solve anything; this is just expressing comments.
“Citizenship is irrevokable and if we get some 5mil moslem immigrants, this means they can vote and impose their saria law on me. Hell, no!”
First of all, I always enjoy when greeks show their real xenophobic faces online(some EU peoples eh?!), and it amuses me. Second, if 5 million people moved to greece, mulsim or otherwise you’ll have some other serious problems buddy. A country of 11 million, would turn to anarchy(not that it hasn’t shown signs of it in the past couple years) if it got another 5 million people added to the mix.So religion would be your last concern if this happened.So chill out.
“The answer is humanitarian reasons. Also note that they do not want to go back.”
Greece is thinking about humanitarianism of its immigrants? NO WAY! I would’ve never believed this unless i heard it from you. Anyway, I thought the major problem was to save you from sharia law, and the fact they’re illegal.Seems to me that something that is illegal should be ceased immediately.Otherwise the greek government is perpetuating with full knowledge something that is illegal.Now this wouldn’t the first time that happens though, eh?!
February 26th, 2010 at 5:41 pm
@chris
“Children are innocent, but that does not mean they should automatically get citizenship. ”
If they’re illegal, then they’re guilty i’d say.
“Do you also think you can cross into the US, and demand citizenship?”
I never said you can. I said that those that become citizens also bear the obligations that come with that. A few posts ago you were complaining about why immigrants should have the benefits of citizenship and not the obligations(such as serving in the military), and im telling you that they would of course have the obligations that come with it.
And yes citizenship is not a right, it’s a privilege.It’s a privilege that many reasonable people would say thousands in greece have earned through decades of hard work and following the law; but you’d have to be reasonable for that. No xenophobe who has nightmares about sharia law would be able to see that clearly.(i’m speaking about people in general)
February 26th, 2010 at 5:49 pm
@doug
“Of course, this has resulted in Canada’s swift descent into crime, terrorism, welfare dependency and complete social collapse. So there’s that”
Cite, please?
Canada consistently tops the UN’s yearly list of best country in the world to live in. In the 90s it was on that list for 9 of 10 years. 2007(the last year I know about) it was #4 on that list. So the country with just about the 4th best quality of life in the world is in “social collapse” to you? I’d seriously verify your sources, as I’m canadian and I can tell you it’s nothing like that. Sure there are problems, and we always complain because we want better and better, but canada is up there with the best of them (norway, iceland b4 the crisis, switzerland).
As for the “swift descent into crime”, high immigration doesn’t lead to crime necessarily. The US naturalizes less people than canada(relatively speaking based on population way less) and yet it has a skyrocketing crime rate(the highest in the world per capita,1% of population is in prison). Immigration doesn’t lead to crime if you have programs in place to settle those immigrants fast, settle their status, and get them working and building lives.
And as for the crisis, canada is probably coming out of it better than all western economies. That’s why I’d really like to see where you got your information from.
February 26th, 2010 at 5:55 pm
@chris (the last one
)
“Still, Canada puts a limit on those it can naturalize. Otherwise, I would assume most immigrants would rather emigrate to Canada than Greece.”
You assume wrong.Even if canada had opened the doors wide opened many people wouldn’t come here.Theyd go somewhere close to home, so they can be close to the people theyre leaving behind, theyd go somewhere close to home where the climata is similar to what they’re used to, theyd go close to home where the culture in the neighbouring country no matter how different, it’ll be way more similar than going on the other side of the world. Also, it takes money to get to the other side of the world, so theyd go somewhere near where its less costly. Thats why so many albanians went to greece in 91/92. If theyd all gone to canada they would’ve all most likely gotten citizenship because of how the canadian system works. But for the above reasons I mentioned most chose to go to greece. For them even with its faults greece was better than going almost to the north pole.
February 26th, 2010 at 6:50 pm
“Cite, please?”
mirakulous, I would like to introduce you to my friend Mr. Sarcasm.
Yes, the name sounds Greek. Actually, it /is/ Greek, originally. The root is the Latin ‘sarcasmos’, which in turn comes from the Greek ‘sarkazein’ — literally “to strip or tear the meat”. Really! Sarx, sarc-, flesh, meat, corpse, same root as ‘sarcophagus’.
Sounds unpleasant, I know! But actually, Mr. Sarcasm is our friend. We just have to respect his power.
Spend some time with Mr. Sarcasm, and perhaps one day you’ll get to meet his pretty (but confusing) sister, Ms. Irony. Meanwhile: Sarcasm, mirakulous. mirakulous, Sarcasm. I hope you two will be friends now.
Doug M.
February 26th, 2010 at 6:55 pm
Haha. Sorry doug. I totally didn’t catch that. I should’ve had more faith in you. I was just soooo shocked, lost all other senses. Your reply was hilarious though.
February 26th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
I must say, I’m completely amazed that a post about Greece, Muslims, Balkan languages and immigration should attract so many angry comments.
February 26th, 2010 at 7:40 pm
And with Macedonia barely even mentioned…
February 27th, 2010 at 8:19 am
The problem with Greeks that are mostly (blood wise) Albanians, Vlachos and ….ORTHODOX TURKS. Only in 1923 they got 1.5 million Turks and other Asia Minor Christians. Before Turks occupied the Greeks, 45% of today’s Greece was Albanian (Google ‘arvanite Helsinki’). Add Vlachs and slavs and you get the idea. In 1923 Greece got all the Christians from Turkey (think of Orthodox Arabs, Turks, Iraqis since the 1st century etc.,) their faith was the only criteria. In fact, over 500,000 of them (Karamanlides) did not speak a word in Greek, as they were Turks.
******This is not to demean anyone, it’s to point out the stupidity of Greece’s ‘purity’ argument.********
Greece is built on lies basically, everyone knows their origins but hates to admit it. Despite the official line, Arvanitis and Vlachos are dirty words in Greece, that’s why they try to be more ‘Greek’ than the rest.
Greece needs immigrants, the problem is that as soon as Albania gets in EU, they will go to a real EU country, not stay at a bankrupt and xenophobic one. Once the EU $$ start flowing to Albania, they will come home. Nikos, the idea that in one generation they will be assimilated is wishful thinking, maybe speaking Albanian in the streets of Platos’ wannabe cousins is not seen as a good move?
February 27th, 2010 at 8:23 am
Greek prof:”
This brings us to another important linguistic “subculture” the Greek Arvanites (Attica, Boetia, Euboea) and Arberesht (Peloponnese). Though no more than 100.000 were still some how using the dialect in the 1980′s a sudden inflow of half a million young Albanians, after 1990, has dramatically changed the linguistic landscape of the country. The Greek Arvanites through a rigid policy of monolingual education considered as the corner stone of national defense against a “communist” environment were progressively de-cultured and integrated into the Greek speaking society. This was facilitated by the proximity of Athens and of the other cities of Southern Greece and by the fact that since Independence (1830) they were always active in the power games of the Greek political scene. After the arrival of the Albanians, however the dialect was suddenly revived in the work place and as a mean of socializing with ethnic kin. At this date there are 500.000 people both indigenous and immigrants using Albanian dialects in Greece.
Albanians are, however today in Greece, the nation’s villains. The media and the grass root feeling has developed such a negative image of the “Alvanos” and the criminality they generate that people consider it prudent to dissimulate their origin. In this context nothing is done to educate the children, sooner or later however provision for a bilingual education for the children of Albanian immigrants will have to be taken. This will progressively involve members of the Greek Arvanites communities, even if for the moment they cautiously distance themselves from the “less civilized” immigrants. Yet once again from a couple of villages, people listed Albanian in Brussels among Greece’s “less spoken languages”.
February 27th, 2010 at 9:17 am
My last post and if you are a ‘Greek’ please do not read it
This is from a book of a Cambridge professor (see link) and how far modern Greeks go to hide the fact that Albanians and Slavic blood is in their veins:
“While compiling my maps of village systems across the post-medieval
centuries from the Ottoman sources (archives so remarkably discovered and
tabulated for us by Machiel Kiel; see Kiel 1997; Bintliff 1995, 1997), I was
careful to indicate in the English captions which of them were Albanianspeaking
and which Greek-speaking villages. A strong supporter of the project,
the Orthodox bishop of Livadhia, Hieronymus, watched over my shoulder as the
maps took shape. “Very interesting,” he said, looking at the symbols for ethnicity,
“but what you have written here is quite wrong. You see the people in
Greece who speak a language like Albanian are Arvanites, not Alvanoi, and
they speak Arvanitika not Alvanika.”
In this seemingly innocuous, and of course technically correct, comment
lies a much deeper layer of ideology, signified by the mere substitution of an “r”
for an “1.” The bishop was voicing the accepted modern position among those
Greeks who are well aware of the persistence of indigenous Albanian-speakers
in the provinces of their country: the “Albanians” are not like us at all, they are
ex-Communists from outside the modern Greek state who come here for work
from their backward country; as for the Arvanites (traditional inhabitants of the
Greek countryside speaking Albanian)—well, they are a kind of ethnic Greek
population from somewhere on the northwest borders of Greece, where the line
between the Greek state and that of Albania has always been fuzzy and permeable
to intermarriage.
Thus the difference between an “1″ and an “r” neatly allows the modern
Greeks to divorce themselves and their history from that of the unpopular but
widely employed, modern Gastarbeiter of post-Communist Albania. Shortly
after this conversation, I saw the bishop pass across the courtyard of our project
base—a converted monastery run as a research center—to talk to the genuine
Albanian guestworkers who were restoring its stonework. I knew he was himself
an Arvanitis, and listened with interest as he chatted fluently to them—and it
wasn’t in Greek! I was tempted, but wisely forbore, to ask him which language
they were conversing in—Arvanitika or Alvanika? “
February 27th, 2010 at 11:00 am
Mirakulous, US crime rates are not that high. The difference is in reporting rates. I’ve read international crime surveys (no link, sorry) that say that the highest violent crime rates in the developed world are in Britain and Australia, and the US ranks in the middle. Most countries don’t publish their own crime surveys, but between the two that do, the US and the UK, the UK consistently has twice the crime rate of the US in every category except murder. Murder is unusually high in the US, due to the proliferation of guns, but other crime are not. Nor is the US crime rate skyrocketing: on the contrary, it’s been flat in the last ten years and plummeted in the previous ten. Look up the national murder rate statistics or the crime surveys.
More on-topic: in the US is that illegal immigrants are no more criminal than the rest of the population, and possibly even less. I don’t know whether the same pattern is true in Greece, but the explanation among American sociologists is that immigrants are self-selected for qualities like hard work and respect for the law.
Granted, Greece does everything in its power to criminalize many minorities, but that alone doesn’t create immigrant crime waves. So color me skeptical.
P.S. the French notion of citizenship was for centuries jus soli, not jus sanguinis. France took a step backward around 2000 in order to harass Algerians, but second-generation immigrants are still entitled to citizenship at age 18 there, which is more than you could say for the rest of Continental Europe.
February 27th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
@Alton Levy.
Crime doesn’t just mean murder or violent crime. Crime means crime, breaking the law. 2 years ago the US became the country with the highest percentage of its population in prison (1%). I don’t know where you’ve read that US crime is lower than the UK, but by this measure its the highest in the world. Even as a total number of inmates only china has more than the US, but china has a population thats more than 4 times bigger, so thats understandable. Also, here in north america, it has now been a common knowledge stat for quite a few years that california by itself has more inmates than all of europe(that obviously includes the UK, and then some). So I don’t know what to tell you. Statistics ARE tricky, so maybe you’ve been misled. I dunno, but you did at one point say the UK has higher rates of violent crime in all categories, and then you said the US has a higher rate of murder. Murder is a violent crime no?! Either way, thats off topic….
As for the French and citizenship, actually in Germany 2nd generation immigrants ALSO receive citizenship when they turn 18. I don’t know about other countries.
February 27th, 2010 at 6:10 pm
alton levy is nearly right about France and naturalisation. We have flitted between various ideas about nationality over the centuries.
The Civil Code of 1803 established family (ie jus sanguinis) as the basis of citizenship. By the end of the 19th C a sociological dimension was added: the return of jus soli (or naturalisation based on on being born and raised in France). After WW1 it became a demographic instrument. The country was so depopulated through the ravages of war that almost all immigrants were welcome. But, overall, the key was war: France wanted more “Frenchmen” for military service.
Given that Greece is not at war (except Germany???) and that there are more pressing proiblems, I’m still wondering why Mr Papandreou has chosen this moment to launch this proposed legislation. President Sarkozy’s experience in launching a debate on the subject has backfired horrendously (for him).Douglas – any explanation?
February 28th, 2010 at 12:04 am
“why Mr Papandreou has chosen this moment to launch this proposed legislation.”
Greece is getting older, their birthrates are at 1.2 or about 0.9 kids per couple less than needed. With $500+ billion in debt, they need workers
February 28th, 2010 at 7:30 am
Ajay wonders:
I must say, I’m completely amazed that a post about Greece, Muslims, Balkan languages and immigration should attract so many angry comments.
I’m not the slightest amazed. When the tags include “Muslims” and “immigration” in the same package, the usual suspects are guaranteed to go apeshit.
Throw in the Balkans, and Greece in particular, and you’ll get an instant fusion reaction of two strange attractors.
… actually, relatively speaking, this thread is a lot tamer than one would think.
Cheers,
J. J.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:34 am
French Derek wonders:
Given that Greece is not at war (except Germany???) and that there are more pressing proiblems, I’m still wondering why Mr Papandreou has chosen this moment to launch this proposed legislation.
Completely cynical explanation: more votes.
Cheers,
J. J.
February 28th, 2010 at 7:48 am
Who’s Alton?
Mirakulous: yes, the US puts the largest percentage of its population in prison. However, this comes from higher arrest rates and longer sentences, not larger crime rates. Throwing nonviolent drug offenders into jail for life doesn’t increase the crime rate.
If you want to look at the evidence, look up “National Crime Victimization Survey” and “British Crime Survey”: both surveys account for both reported and unreported crime, and should be considered first-rate statistics of national crime rates. It turns out the US has about half of Britain’s rate of violent as well as property crime, extending across every category except murder. Murder’s not surveyed because a) it’s universally reported, and b) you can’t call people up and ask whether they’ve been murdered in the past year, but you can call and ask about anything else.
Germany has moved in the direction of jus soli, yes. It came from the realization that it was stupid to give citizenship to third-generation German-Americans who speak no German, while denying it to third-generation Turkish-Germans who speak only German. But that’s a recent development – the reforms were only made in 2000.
French Derek: you’re right about French history – sorry. But I’ll add one more reason France was aggressive about jus soli after WW1: it not only depopulated in the war, but also had low natural growth rates in the industrial revolution.
February 28th, 2010 at 10:35 am
@Alon…that was a typo before. sorry.
I don’t see why you must separate violent crime from other crime. Point is when someone is put in prison, he/she has broken the law, and thats a crime. That’s all that matters. Of these people breaking the law the US has 1% of the population. This COULD be cuz its laws are tough, but thats not likely being that it follows either the civil code or common law (depending on individual states); so its laws arent that different than other western democracies. That’s what im saying. You’re saying something totally different which is also correct in its own right. That’s fine.
February 28th, 2010 at 1:11 pm
Jussi Jalonen
I’m not the slightest amazed. When the tags include “Muslims” and “immigration” in the same package, the usual suspects are guaranteed to go apeshit.
Throw in the Balkans, and Greece in particular, and you’ll get an instant fusion reaction of two strange attractors.
I wonder ,is there any european country where muslim immigration has actually been successfull?In Britain and Spain 3rd generation immigrants started blowin up trains.In Denmark you draw a cartoon and you’ll be livin the rest of your life with the fear of some Somali nut attacking you in your house with a knife.Same goes for Netherlands(see Wilders,Van Gogh etc).Switzerland dared banning minarets(oh the horror) and now Islamic Leaders threaten them with Jihad.
I don’t want to see similar things happen in my country,if that makes me a biggot and a racist be it so.And yes i understand that the majority of muslim immigrants just want to work and make a nice living etc,but if just one out of 100 turns out to be a religious extremist then franky it isn’t worth the trouble.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:01 pm
K-Rose proves my prediction of the usual suspects correct:
I wonder ,is there any european country where muslim immigration has actually been successfull?
Define “Muslim immigration”. The proverbial Indonesian IT-engineer doesn’t have the first damn thing in common with a Somali refugee.
As for historical examples, the Finnish Tatars arrived in this country as immigrants back in the time of the Russian rule, and they’ve been pretty damn succesful.
Switzerland dared banning minarets(oh the horror
In a decision that was completely divorced from reality. Actually, Switzerland could be considered as a country which had absolutely no trouble with immigrants, but as usual, certain elements wanted to _produce_ trouble.
if that makes me a biggot and a racist be it so
Nah, it just makes you a complete wuss. But don’t worry, I totally get it; you’re one of those who went permanently catatonic from fear after that Muhammad-cartoon-backlash. I know your type already; after that, you’ve spent the past years trembling in your bed every night, keeping your feet tight under the blanket, so that the imaginary Taliban fighter under your bed wouldn’t grab your ankle.
Hey, in this country, just like elsewhere in Europe, we have an actual political movement founded by socially challenged people such as you! Makes one proud to be Finnish – not.
if just one out of 100 turns out to be a religious extremist then franky it isn’t worth the trouble.
I feel for you, man. I have the same exact opinion when it comes to these “immigration critics”, some of whom have expressed their “constructive criticism” and their “justified fears towards radical Islam” by bombing asylum centers and assaulting Somali girls at railway platforms.
Considering that the said xenophobic subculture has already produced not just one, but several out of that hundred, well, frankly, it’s not worth the trouble.
But as I once said, this isn’t anything spectacular. Even if it gets out of hand, there’s nothing that a good spray of rubber bullets, water, tear gas, and an occasional good pounding with a nightstick wouldn’t solve.
Cheers,
J. J.
February 28th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
Let’s add another example to the previous ones.I don’t want to shop in a super market and get shot by some whacko Kosovar Muslim who felt dishonored by his girlfriend.
Cheers
February 28th, 2010 at 6:29 pm
But you’d feel much better if your kid got shot at school by a whacko Finn?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:33 pm
No but there are always be homegrown criminals in each country.What’s the point of importing more in the name of “multi culturalism”?
February 28th, 2010 at 6:39 pm
Point is that criminals don’t have a nationality or place of origin.You import some because at the same time you import engineers, lawyers, doctors and manual labour workers as well at the same time. And you gain from the above, it follows that there will be a drawback cuz 0.5% of the “imports” will be bad. It’s a compromise. Are you gaining more than you’re losing from accepting immigrants? Your government seems to think so. Wouldve America been anything without “imports”?! I rest my case.
February 28th, 2010 at 8:19 pm
K-Rose shows that she’s done her homework:
I don’t want to shop in a super market and get shot by some whacko Kosovar Muslim who felt dishonored by his girlfriend.
Exactly what I said; you’re a wuss. A firm believer that it’s possible to establish some kind of a state of _absolute security_.
There are public shootings in this country every damn year, mostly committed by the natives. The fact is that you can’t prevent them with any firearms legislation, and you can’t prevent them even if you close the borders hermetically.
Personally, I wouldn’t like to be involved in a traffic accident, but sadly, there are no guarantees.
No but there are always be homegrown criminals in each country. What’s the point of importing more in the name of “multi culturalism”?
The person you mentioned wasn’t “imported in the name of multiculturalism”, whatever that means, he arrived in this country as a refugee.
On the other hand, you could make a case that this fellow was able to arrive in Finland as a result of one political ideal; the concept of Nordic cooperation, which includes free movement without passport between the Nordic countries.
Incidentally, Mr. Christensen was not a Muslim. I don’t particularly like the idea of some convicted Danish rapist waltzing over the border and killing two police constables, but I’m not going to suggest restricting the movement of Danish citizens or abandoning the free movement between the Nordic countries because of it.
Them’s the breaks. This is the World we’re living, and it’s always been full of risks.
Cheers,
J. J.
February 28th, 2010 at 9:24 pm
“whacko Kosovar Muslim who felt dishonored by his girlfriend.”
Just for the record — not that it will make a bit of difference, of course — Kosovars don’t much go in for that sort of thing. They’re not Saudis or Somalis or even Kurds.
Prishtina in July, the skirts are nearly as short as in Belgrade. (And quite a bit shorter than in Budapest.)
Doug M.
March 1st, 2010 at 7:06 am
@eni:
About democracy. Citizens deciding about their own country is democracy; Someone else deciding on their behalf is not.
Second, “referendum to imprison all immigrants”? wtf are you talking about? Greece is not a prison and
nodoby is there by force.
Third, Switzerland: I see, Switzerland is not a democracy either. Only Albania is a true democracy and respects human rights.
Which has treated its own minorities in perfectly democratic ways involving kalashnikofs.
“If you let emigrants drudge for almost 10 or 20 years in a country”
The alternative which you surely propose is … shoot them on entry or let them drown. A true champ
of human rights!
“grant them almost no rights”? What rights are not granted? Access to the health system, education,
courts… No voting rights, but no obligations either that come with citizenship(such as compulsury
military service). Why is voting in a country where you are not a citizen a human right? If so, I also lived for over 10
years in the US and did not get voting rights. So I presume the US is also “a prison where human rights and rule of law
are just on paper”.
“They have nowhere else to go”.
Hey, nobody is keeping anyone by force. If you do not like the rules, one can always go back or
better yet, emigrate to a more tolerant country which will accept you with open arms,
like Albania.
March 1st, 2010 at 7:14 am
@miraculous:
“As for your massacres, I was talking about massacres by greeks and not just in greece, so you probably entered the wrong search. It’s okay, I know you’re playing stupid.
I was talking about the massacres carried out by zervas, such as this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Cham_Albanians”
Who is playing stupid should be clear. Read again my prvious post, “#11 Paramythia excecutions” involved your nazi Cham scum, and not as victims.
You wrote
“A kosovo case could’ve happened in greece as well with chameria, but the greek government took care of that, exactly for fear of this happening.”
So you are saying that the greek government(which did not exist during the war) arranged for the german invasion and WWII, as well as forced poor Chams to support the Nazis and commit massacres against the greek population, so that it could get rid of Chams as a result of the actions of partizan forces! Great theory!
March 1st, 2010 at 7:53 am
@miraculous:
““In any case, if there is a problem, you will not be asked to solve it”
And neither will you.”
Yes, I will. I actually live there. Everything that happens is my problem
“First of all, I always enjoy when greeks show their real xenophobic faces online(some EU peoples eh?!), and it amuses me.”
What is xenophobic about not wishing to live in an islamic country? If I wanted that, I’d move to Tehran! Lots of people gave their lives for freedom in this land, I see no reason to surrender our freedoms.
“Second, if 5 million people moved to greece, mulsim or otherwise you’ll have some other serious problems buddy. A country of 11 million, would turn to anarchy(not that it hasn’t shown signs of it in the past couple years) if it got another 5 million people added to the mix.So religion would be your last concern if this happened”
How many people have emmigrated to the US or Canada? Has it turned to anarchy?
“Greece is thinking about humanitarianism of its immigrants? NO WAY! I would’ve never believed this unless i heard it from you.”
No, it’s because we wantto exploit the Pakistanis who wash your car window 10 times while you wait for the light and the african immigrants who sell copied dvds! Both give the economy a tremendous boost!
“Seems to me that something that is illegal should be ceased immediately.Otherwise the greek government is perpetuating with full knowledge something that is illegal.Now this wouldn’t the first time that happens though, eh?!”
Not sure what you refer to, but I’m all ears for suggestions like I wrote to eni. Shoot them, let them drown or what?
“TIME is not the ultimate judge on anything.It’s a much better judge than some guy on a blog online though.”
Who talks about some guy on the blog? The issue is that TIME, which is a business, knows best what is good for Switzerland than its own voters. Maybe they should elect TIME to run the country…
“And yes citizenship is not a right, it’s a privilege.It’s a privilege that many reasonable people would say thousands in greece have earned through decades of hard work and following the law; but you’d have to be reasonable for that.”
Agreed. I’m all for that. Except with the proposed law, it’s a right and not a privilege anymore and applies even to people who have not worked hard and followed the law-in fact it applies to criminals as well.
” No xenophobe who has nightmares about sharia law would be able to see that clearly.”
Look, just like I would not want to import and naturalize 5 million nazis, in exactly the same way I do not want to import and naturalize 5 million islamic nazis(the dominant form of nazism today). Xenophobe relates to origin, with what most greeks have no problem with. Nazi refers to what one has on their heads, not origin. So your comment makes no sense at all.
And another thing: There is a BIG difference between recognizing a risk and taking steps to mitigate it(such as not giving citizenship to nazis, islamic or otehrwise) and ignoring the risk.
“For them even with its faults greece was better than going almost to the north pole.”
This is all about choices made by adults. You weigh the plus and minuses, make your choices and stop bitching about how life is not as you wished.(And actually Albanians in Greece are fairly well off, despite the idiotic and inflammatory comments by Anono).
March 1st, 2010 at 7:59 am
I’m not discussing theories, just history.
I don’t understand why you love to refer to “my nazi cham scum”. Why do you sink so low as to say stuff like this, is beyond me; or maybe you’re not sinking at all.
And as I said before i was talking about real history, not just greek propagandist history.
No i’m not saying the greek government(i’ll retract that). What did you call it a “partisan movement”? The partisan movement led by zervas carried out mass expulsion and genocide. History recognizes this. Doesn’t matter if greek politicians do or not. That’s the problem in the balkans; history gets politicized and the truth hidden quite often.
Doug explained it quite well above; not all chams supported the germans first of all, and second of all why are you surprised that some did after the greek government expelled boatloads of them to turkey in 1923?? Or was that not the greek government again?! Every action has a reaction. This was their reaction.No surprises there. As for massacres, every side committed massacres in a war as huge as WWII, but quite definetely whatever the chams did, didn’t compare to what they suffered at the hands of your genocidal partisan maniacs. (do you like it when i refer to them that way?)
March 1st, 2010 at 8:01 am
On the discussion about the supermarket shooting, perhaps a relevant story:
Back in 88, in the US presidential elections between Bush(the father) and Dukakis, Dukakis was leading by 20%; he lost the elections because of Willie Horton. This was a convict, released for a weekend as a result of a furlough program that was running in Massachussets(where Mr. Dukakis was the governor), then broke in a house in Connecticut and held a couple hostage(I will not give the gory details here). Americans did not care whether statistics showed that with the furlough program better re-integration rates for convicts were achieved. They punished the one they saw as neglecting their safety. Whether that makes them wusses or not, I do not know. What I do know is that extremist rise to power only when moderates fail to solve people’s problems.
March 1st, 2010 at 8:10 am
“Yes, I will. I actually live there. Everything that happens is my problem”
Yea I’m sure you will. Papandreu might just call you tonight to ask your opinion.
“How many people have emmigrated to the US or Canada? Has it turned to anarchy?”
You do realize that 5 out of 11 is 45% right? 45% of the population in immigrants has not moved to canada or the US at the same time, or even within 1 or 2 decades ever. Like I said, if such a thing would happen all of a sudden to greece, or any country, religion wouldn’t be the primary problem. If the population of the US increased by 45% in a short period of time, you don’t think there would be problems???
“Not sure what you refer to, but I’m all ears for suggestions like I wrote to eni. Shoot them, let them drown or what?”
Ive mentioned them a few times but you seem to have skipped over them due to lack of an answer. Since theyre illegals and they do nothing to the greek economy(all they apparently do is wash cars and copy dvds) send them back. Thats the proper path to take with illegals. Deport them all.There is no other way.A law is broken, the punishment must be served. Right?
“Maybe they should elect TIME to run the country…”
Actually, I think they’re nominating you!
March 1st, 2010 at 8:16 am
@miraculous:
For the record, I consider all nazi collaborators, scum, and I can feel no remorse about anything the partizans did to them. The crux of the matter is that lots of bad things happened during WWII. Partizan forces did not have courts,as they are not an organized state. This is why I insisted on the government role. Had there been a government, there would have been a case for prosecuting people engaged in indiscriminate killing, but in fact during WWII, much worse things happened, such as partisan forces fighting each other. This is a stain. Furthermore, after WWII, military courts routinely sentenced to death people just because of their political affiliations. In the Cham case, I a perfactly aware that there were also Chams in the ELAS partizan army, but EDES was strongest in the region. So if your point is that innocent civilians were also hurt or killed, no doubt about that, but that is the nature of war. But many of those killed or who managed to flee deserved what they got.
What I am strongly opposed is the mud-slinging and trying to paint Greece involved in genocides that never happened(I would not have had a problem if it was true). First, this was not Greece, second, it was not genocide and third, it was not perpetrated against a completely innocent population as a result of some master plan. And I do not recall Albania trying any Chams for their role in WWII with the nazis or the massacres they commited in Greece, including the Paramythia excecutions.
March 1st, 2010 at 8:25 am
“Yes, I will. I actually live there. Everything that happens is my problem
Yea I’m sure you will. Papandreu might just call you tonight to ask your opinion.”
No, he will send me the bill and draft me if it comes to this
“How many people have emmigrated to the US or Canada? Has it turned to anarchy?
You do realize that 5 out of 11 is 45% right? 45% of the population in immigrants has not moved to canada or the US at the same time, or even within 1 or 2 decades ever.”
Exactly my point. So keep quotas, integrate/assimilate them before accepting new ones.
“Like I said, if such a thing would happen all of a sudden to greece, or any country, religion wouldn’t be the primary problem. If the population of the US increased by 45% in a short period of time, you don’t think there would be problems???”
Only if there were enough jobs. Religion could be an additional problem, even if there were enough jobs. Like I said, you need time to integrate only those that can/want to be integrated. But the country, not the newcomers set the rules. This is also the case in Canada.
“Ive mentioned them a few times but you seem to have skipped over them due to lack of an answer. Since theyre illegals and they do nothing to the greek economy(all they apparently do is wash cars and copy dvds) send them back. Thats the proper path to take with illegals. Deport them all.There is no other way.A law is broken, the punishment must be served. Right?”
BUt here come those who will say: These are poor people coming from countries ravaged by war and all sorts of evils. have a heart, give them a chance! I believe in giving people a chance, but not a guarantee(just like in the US or Canada)
“Maybe they should elect TIME to run the country…Actually, I think they’re nominating you!”
Funny, I did not apply and unlike time, I do not consider the Swiss morons unfit to run their country
March 1st, 2010 at 8:25 am
“For the record, I consider all nazi collaborators, scum, and I can feel no remorse about anything the partizans did to them.”
For the record, again, not all were collaborators. So you just dont have remorse period. Second of all, the issue was why you called them mine.
“But many of those killed or who managed to flee deserved what they got.”
You clearly don’t understand the concept of collective punishment. If 1 greek does something, then everyone should be killed you’re saying. Right? Don’t think “many” women and children really deserved what they got; but hey you just have a different brand of justice from me, thats all.
“First, this was not Greece, second, it was not genocide and third, it was not perpetrated against a completely innocent population as a result of some master plan.”
This statement is full of contradiction. If first it wasn’t greece, then why do you feel the need to defend that it wasnt genocide? If it wasnt greece, then you shouldn’t care what its labelled. Disconnect there from what you’re saying and showing. If it wasnt greece, as official government, then the third point that it was perpetuated on guilty people should not be there because if you’re not an official government then you can’t institute punishment, on guilty or not guilty people. You said it yourself that no courts were open and trials happened.So how do you know that they werent completely innocent?! YOU DON’T, by your own words. So totally contradictory there on those 3 statements.
“I do not recall Albania trying any Chams for their role in WWII with the nazis or the massacres they commited in Greece”
History doesn’t recall greece even recognizing what zervas did to albanians and their expulsion from their native land! The greek government should have no problem admitting this because he didn’t represent the government; so no point in covering for him.
If that game was to be played, pandoras box would open.
March 1st, 2010 at 8:31 am
“Exactly my point. So keep quotas, integrate/assimilate them before accepting new ones.”
YEA exactly MY point actually! If you have a lot of people coming in at the same time, it doesnt matter what religion they are because they won’t be easily integrated no matter what.This was because your fear is of 5 million muslims. 5 million catholics would create a problem in a country of 11 million as well. This is what i’m saying to you.
“BUt here come those who will say: These are poor people coming from countries ravaged by war and all sorts of evils. have a heart, give them a chance! I believe in giving people a chance, but not a guarantee(just like in the US or Canada)”
Interesting. I would’ve thought you would’ve believed in the law more than giving chances, being as your constantly mentioned the word “illegal” in your previous posts. I dont know if you’re aware but illegal is the opposite of legal. If you’re against illegal, you should probably start believing in legal. If you do, then maybe you should be for making those people legals, as opposed to keeping them as illegals. Just a thought. These are the only 2 ways to get rid of an issue that is illegal; legalize it or get rid of it(send it back). Not complicated at all!
March 1st, 2010 at 10:04 am
@mirakulous:
“For the record, I consider all nazi collaborators, scum, and I can feel no remorse about anything the partizans did to them.
For the record, again, not all were collaborators. So you just dont have remorse period. Second of all, the issue was why you called them mine. ”
To them clearly refers to nazi collaborators. I call them “your” because you care to defend them.
“But many of those killed or who managed to flee deserved what they got.
You clearly don’t understand the concept of collective punishment….”
Do you mind reading before posting? “Many” means many, not everyone. Which ones? The ones who were collaborators, such as the scum involved in the Paramythia excecutions. Unless you object to killing these murderers.
“First, this was not Greece, second, it was not genocide and third, it was not perpetrated against a completely innocent population as a result of some master plan.This statement is full of contradiction. If first it wasn’t greece, then why do you feel the need to defend that it wasnt genocide? ”
Because you tried to portray this as ‘greek genocides’
“If it wasnt greece, then you shouldn’t care what its labelled.”
Hello? So why should I care if a post appears about how the British genocided the Germans?
” If it wasnt greece, as official government”
this is a fact, not an assumption. I thought we settled that much
“, then the third point that it was perpetuated on guilty people should not be there because if you’re not an official government then you can’t institute punishment, on guilty or not guilty people. You said it yourself that no courts were open and trials happened.”
Ever crossed your mind that there was a war going on? Partizan military objective was eliminate the threat of these nazi gangs with the limited means available. Failing this task would mean more civillian dead.
“So how do you know that they werent completely innocent?! YOU DON’T, by your own words.”
No, I do because the Paramythia excecutions for example were not done by ghosts. They were done by armed Cham gangs, who did, btw fight the EDES partizans when they attacked. That there were also people who possibly had no part in the acts of these gangs(except being wives, sisters, children and so on) was unfortunate, but far from a genocide.
“Colonel Chris Woodhouse, head of the Allied Military Mission in Greece during the Axis occupation, who was present in the area at the time, in his “Note on the Chams” official military report of 16 October 1945, clearly accepting the full responsibility for the expulsion of the Chams although criticized the vendetta way in which that was carried out, including a brief description of the situation led to the events: “Chams are racially part Turk, part Albanian, part Greek. In 1941-3 they collaborated with Italians, making the organization of guerilla resistance in that area difficult. I never heard of any of them taking part in any resistance against enemy. Zervas encouraged by the Allied Mission under myself, chased them out of their homes in 1944 in order to facilitate operations against the enemy. They mostly took refuge in Albania, where they were not popular either. Their eviction from Greece was bloodily carried out, owing the usual vendetta spirit, which was fed by many brutalities committed by the Chams in league with the Italians. Zervas’ work was completed by an inexcusable massacre of Chams in Philliates in March, 1945, carried out by remnants of Zervas’ dissolved forces under Zotos. The Chams deserved what they got, but Zervas’ methods were pretty bad – or rather, his subordinate officers got out of hand. The result has been in effect a shift of populations, removing an unwanted minority from Greek soil. Perhaps it would be best to leave things at that…
In the worst massacre, at the town of Filiates, on 13 March, some sixty to seventy Chams were killed….Chameria Association claims that Cham Albanians that left were 35,000, from whom, 28,000 left to Albania and the rest to Turkey.”
Which is to say that a) EDES did not act alone, but was following orders by the Allied High Command, b) 60-70 out of 35000 can hardly be called genocide is is much less than the victims of the Chams.
March 1st, 2010 at 10:12 am
I’m not the slightest amazed. When the tags include “Muslims” and “immigration” in the same package, the usual suspects are guaranteed to go apeshit.
Jussi, I refer you to Doug’s description of “Mr Sarcasm”…
March 1st, 2010 at 1:35 pm
I think we’re reaching a point of diminishing returns here, folks.
Make final comments if you have any; I’m closing this thread later today.
Doug M.
March 1st, 2010 at 4:31 pm
“That there were also people who possibly had no part in the acts of these gangs(except being wives, sisters, children and so on) was unfortunate, but far from a genocide.”
Hmmm, killing women and children who are innocent isn’t genocide. What a concept! Only a greek who defends expulsions is likely to hold this view. Not surprising.
“Because you tried to portray this as ‘greek genocides’”
I guess greeks killing others, arent greek genocides! My bad.
Obviously the greeks didnt work by themselves when massacring the chams. The Allied Commission turned a blind eye to expulsions everywhere during the end of the war (czech, slovakia, poland, greece, etc). And this was part of the reparation to each country. Nothing new here. You can’t shift the blame for this to the Allies. And you can’t deny that the pretext of collaboration was an exciting one that greeks just couldnt wait to use to clear their country of any remaining minorities.
March 1st, 2010 at 4:36 pm
“A firm believer that it’s possible to establish some kind of a state of _absolute security_….Them’s the breaks. This is the World we’re living, and it’s always been full of risks.”
So just because we cannot have absolute security, we should abolish all controls. Just because it is possible to get cancer without ever smoking, one should smoke 10 packs a day!
Stupidity is truly amazing!
March 1st, 2010 at 4:50 pm
@mirakulous:
“Hmmm, killing women and children who are innocent isn’t genocide.”
No, it is not necessarily. Look up the word. Genocide means mass extermination(such as exterminate a nation). Killing a couple of innocent civilians is bad, but not genocide. Otherwise, all wars would classify as genocide, such as the Kossovo war(with much collateral damage), Iraq, Afghanistan, Gaza and so on. In all these cases innocent women and children were killed.
I could say only an Albanian who defends nazi scum could hold this view, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt: you just don’t understand the word.
And again the silly conspiracy theory “the pretext of collaboration”. Sure, like I said, Greece provoked WWII, so they could find a pretext to expell the poor Chams!
March 1st, 2010 at 5:06 pm
Ajay wrote:
Jussi, I refer you to Doug’s description of “Mr Sarcasm”…
Hot damn! This is the _second time_ in a week when I fail to detect it, even though it was, in retrospect, glaringly obvious. And believe me, picking up these vibes used to be my forte. Truly, I’m getting old.
… and since Doug already gave his fatwa, this was my final comment.
Cheers,
J. J.
March 1st, 2010 at 5:10 pm
Felix wrote:
So just because we cannot have absolute security, we should abolish all controls. Just because it is possible to get cancer without ever smoking, one should smoke 10 packs a day! Stupidity is truly amazing!
Nah, strawmen such as your comment are truly amazing.
But I’m sure that as an intellectual giant, you can point out where I advocated abolishing all controls on immigration, which is what you’re claiming with your analogy. Or, well, you _could_ point it out, if this thread wasn’t closing soon.
(… pardon the mistake: _this_ was my final comment.)
Cheers,
J. J.
March 1st, 2010 at 5:11 pm
Stop making a fool of yourself. You don’t know who I am or what I am. Clearly you deviate from the topic and personalize things cuz you’ve got nothing to say about this.
I’m not defending no nazis.Pretending you’re so against nazis doesnt mean that everything you’re saying is right, just cuz ure so against nazis.
I never claimed greece provoked WWII. Don’t put words in my mouth; I can speak myself. Once it was started though it pragmatically used it to solve a problem it had taken a stab at for a few decades before, and hadn’t completed. There were still some minorities left over after the forced assimilation and the population exchange. So this was the opportunity. Any country with the same goals would’ve done the same. So don’t feel bad about that. I’m realistic that anyone would’ve done the same, so there should be no problem admitting something that all (nongreeks) know its true.
You’re a pretty big demagogue, and you keep deviating from the topic, you keep going from extreme to extreme. Now you’re saying the “poor chams”. No one is saying they were poor cuz they suffered etc etc, but they WERE driven out (in 1 way or another) from their ancestral, native lands. And thats a reality that sooner or later even you will have to come to grips with.
March 1st, 2010 at 5:17 pm
Comments now closed. Thanks for playing.
Doug M.