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	<title>Comments on: Economic nonsense about France</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Une certaine idée de la France ? &#124; afoe &#124; A Fistful of Euros &#124; European Opinion</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france/#comment-17365</link>
		<dc:creator>Une certaine idée de la France ? &#124; afoe &#124; A Fistful of Euros &#124; European Opinion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france#comment-17365</guid>
		<description>[...] interesting that Emmanuel’s remarks about biased statistics about the French economy in Anglophone publications led to some comments [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] interesting that Emmanuel’s remarks about biased statistics about the French economy in Anglophone publications led to some comments [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Emmanuel</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france/#comment-17361</link>
		<dc:creator>Emmanuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2007 22:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france#comment-17361</guid>
		<description>Doug: "You don’t see nearly as much of this sort of thing when talking about Germany, never mind Italy or any other large European economy."

With the possible exception of Sweden, which is widely viewed as *the* paragon of social-democracy and, as such, frequently targeted by the libertarian press. That obviously reinforces your last point.

Jérôme: yeah, just teasing you :-)

Alex: I agree with Noel Maurer on that one. American Francophobia didn't spring out of nothing in 2002. That's not to deny the massive involvement of the VRWC, but the ground was already fertile: just take a look at the US army guide for soldiers stationed in France in 1945 and you'll that many of the clichés heard today about the French were already widespread.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/112_Gripes_about_the_French

(fair and balanced remark : of course, anti-Americanism is even older in France. See Patrick Roger's book for the long and version)

Hektor: because not being like the dreaded Other just makes you feel good about yourself and because the failings of the Others' society confirms the superiority of your own social model? As simple as that, I think. With the added bonus that both French and American tend to think of their own model as universal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-French_sentiment_in_the_United_States#The_conflict_of_universalism

Kevincure: "I think, if one is talking about economic performance, that a better measure would be GDP/working-age population."

Nothing beats the good ol' GDP per capita in terms of relevant economic indicators but you're right that looking at the working age population (usually defined as people between 15 and 64) makes sense if you're comparing raw economic performances. Obviously, on that front, France is at the bottom of the European league. The problem about using this indicator is that it also shows that the European and American records in terms of economic growth has been roughly equal recently (The Economist has been quite good in highlighting this fact; the American press, less so...).

Klaus: "The AEI brand is a red flag to me, signalling ideological entrenchment."

Yeah, I agree. Though the dirty little secret about AEI is that some (not many, admitedly) scholars there are surprisingly good. Like Norman Ornstein, for instance. I've also once attended a conference on U.S. politics with John Fortier. I expected to see the kind of dishonnest hack that is the trademark of the AEI but he came out as a thoughtful and reasonable analyst. That was a bitter disappointment... ;-)

Anyway, the link to Kevin Hasset's tripe was of course ironic on my part.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doug: &#8220;You don’t see nearly as much of this sort of thing when talking about Germany, never mind Italy or any other large European economy.&#8221;</p>
<p>With the possible exception of Sweden, which is widely viewed as *the* paragon of social-democracy and, as such, frequently targeted by the libertarian press. That obviously reinforces your last point.</p>
<p>Jérôme: yeah, just teasing you <img src='http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Alex: I agree with Noel Maurer on that one. American Francophobia didn&#8217;t spring out of nothing in 2002. That&#8217;s not to deny the massive involvement of the VRWC, but the ground was already fertile: just take a look at the US army guide for soldiers stationed in France in 1945 and you&#8217;ll that many of the clichés heard today about the French were already widespread.<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/112_Gripes_about_the_French" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/112_Gripes_about_the_French</a></p>
<p>(fair and balanced remark : of course, anti-Americanism is even older in France. See Patrick Roger&#8217;s book for the long and version)</p>
<p>Hektor: because not being like the dreaded Other just makes you feel good about yourself and because the failings of the Others&#8217; society confirms the superiority of your own social model? As simple as that, I think. With the added bonus that both French and American tend to think of their own model as universal.<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-French_sentiment_in_the_United_States#The_conflict_of_universalism" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-French_sentiment_in_the_United_States#The_conflict_of_universalism</a></p>
<p>Kevincure: &#8220;I think, if one is talking about economic performance, that a better measure would be GDP/working-age population.&#8221;</p>
<p>Nothing beats the good ol&#8217; GDP per capita in terms of relevant economic indicators but you&#8217;re right that looking at the working age population (usually defined as people between 15 and 64) makes sense if you&#8217;re comparing raw economic performances. Obviously, on that front, France is at the bottom of the European league. The problem about using this indicator is that it also shows that the European and American records in terms of economic growth has been roughly equal recently (The Economist has been quite good in highlighting this fact; the American press, less so&#8230;).</p>
<p>Klaus: &#8220;The AEI brand is a red flag to me, signalling ideological entrenchment.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yeah, I agree. Though the dirty little secret about AEI is that some (not many, admitedly) scholars there are surprisingly good. Like Norman Ornstein, for instance. I&#8217;ve also once attended a conference on U.S. politics with John Fortier. I expected to see the kind of dishonnest hack that is the trademark of the AEI but he came out as a thoughtful and reasonable analyst. That was a bitter disappointment&#8230; <img src='http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Anyway, the link to Kevin Hasset&#8217;s tripe was of course ironic on my part.</p>
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		<title>By: Noel Maurer</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france/#comment-17340</link>
		<dc:creator>Noel Maurer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:49:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france#comment-17340</guid>
		<description>Alex:  rarely do I hear you ever say something that simply doesn't match my own experience, but you just did.  America's weird relationship to France was not "manufactured in 2002." 

While it is always possible that I am suffering from manufactured memories, I remember it from the &lt;i&gt;1980s&lt;/i&gt;.  Calling France the "Other" might have been too strong, but a mysterious anti-French sentiment in the U.S. goes back at least to De Gaulle, and possibly earlier.  After all, the whole Americans-in-France thing was often driven by people who quite consciously left to escape things that they didn't like in America.  

Not convinced?  Well, here I have on my computer a powerpoint presentation that I prepared before the turn of the century for a class of undergraduates &lt;i&gt;precisely to counteract prejudices about the failure of the French economic model&lt;/i&gt;.  

So I do apologize, but it's just wrong to say that anti-French in the U.S. sentiment was "manufactured in 2002."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex:  rarely do I hear you ever say something that simply doesn&#8217;t match my own experience, but you just did.  America&#8217;s weird relationship to France was not &#8220;manufactured in 2002.&#8221; </p>
<p>While it is always possible that I am suffering from manufactured memories, I remember it from the <i>1980s</i>.  Calling France the &#8220;Other&#8221; might have been too strong, but a mysterious anti-French sentiment in the U.S. goes back at least to De Gaulle, and possibly earlier.  After all, the whole Americans-in-France thing was often driven by people who quite consciously left to escape things that they didn&#8217;t like in America.  </p>
<p>Not convinced?  Well, here I have on my computer a powerpoint presentation that I prepared before the turn of the century for a class of undergraduates <i>precisely to counteract prejudices about the failure of the French economic model</i>.  </p>
<p>So I do apologize, but it&#8217;s just wrong to say that anti-French in the U.S. sentiment was &#8220;manufactured in 2002.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Klaus</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france/#comment-17338</link>
		<dc:creator>Klaus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 04:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france#comment-17338</guid>
		<description>A hit'n'run comment: Denmark has a tax revenue at 47-48% of GDP, and doing great - unemployment at below 4% at the moment. So there. Man, I love smearing Denmark in market fundies' faces.

Also, the economist cited at Bloomberg apparently works at AEI, and, well, you know, they don't have a whole lot of credibility post-Iraq. The AEI brand is a red flag to me, signalling ideological entrenchment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A hit&#8217;n'run comment: Denmark has a tax revenue at 47-48% of GDP, and doing great - unemployment at below 4% at the moment. So there. Man, I love smearing Denmark in market fundies&#8217; faces.</p>
<p>Also, the economist cited at Bloomberg apparently works at AEI, and, well, you know, they don&#8217;t have a whole lot of credibility post-Iraq. The AEI brand is a red flag to me, signalling ideological entrenchment.</p>
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		<title>By: kevincure</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france/#comment-17337</link>
		<dc:creator>kevincure</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:14:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france#comment-17337</guid>
		<description>I think, if one is talking about economic performance, that a better measure would be GDP/working-age population.  The working-age population numbers (broadly defined - say 18-70) are declining in a place like Italy, and certainly not declining in France.  Strictly based on its population growth rate, one would mechanically expect France to grow faster than Germany and Italy.

Another way to slice the numbers would be to investigate TFP and capital deepening with some type of Solow decomposition; let's utilize these more exact measures of economic performance and leave the context-less GDP numbers to the newspapers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think, if one is talking about economic performance, that a better measure would be GDP/working-age population.  The working-age population numbers (broadly defined - say 18-70) are declining in a place like Italy, and certainly not declining in France.  Strictly based on its population growth rate, one would mechanically expect France to grow faster than Germany and Italy.</p>
<p>Another way to slice the numbers would be to investigate TFP and capital deepening with some type of Solow decomposition; let&#8217;s utilize these more exact measures of economic performance and leave the context-less GDP numbers to the newspapers.</p>
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		<title>By: Hektor Bim</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france/#comment-17336</link>
		<dc:creator>Hektor Bim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france#comment-17336</guid>
		<description>Elites in all three countries (US, UK, France) seem to think it is in their benefit to play up minor differences between the countries into yawning chasms.

French elites talk incessantly about "Anglo-Saxon" economics or society and how horrible it is, and how multiculturalism and affirmative action are ruining those countries.

Everyone is playing the game, and it would be very interesting to know why.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elites in all three countries (US, UK, France) seem to think it is in their benefit to play up minor differences between the countries into yawning chasms.</p>
<p>French elites talk incessantly about &#8220;Anglo-Saxon&#8221; economics or society and how horrible it is, and how multiculturalism and affirmative action are ruining those countries.</p>
<p>Everyone is playing the game, and it would be very interesting to know why.</p>
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		<title>By: Jérôme</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france/#comment-17332</link>
		<dc:creator>Jérôme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:38:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france#comment-17332</guid>
		<description>The neolibs have run amok since 2002. It would seem that "9/11 changed everything" on the economic front, and the rich are waging war mercilessly on everybody else - and attack those that object, like the French.

China's emergence and globalisation are just pretexts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The neolibs have run amok since 2002. It would seem that &#8220;9/11 changed everything&#8221; on the economic front, and the rich are waging war mercilessly on everybody else - and attack those that object, like the French.</p>
<p>China&#8217;s emergence and globalisation are just pretexts.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france/#comment-17331</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france#comment-17331</guid>
		<description>It's especially strange, seeing as the US *doesn't* have a history of seeing France as The Other. La Fayette, Louisiana, the whole Americans-in-Paris tradition (both a white and a black thing), General Pershing, the US contribution to liberation, Marshall aid, good economic ties (notably IBM)...it's weird how the whole thing was manufactured in late 2002.

It's the Brits who have a history of seeing France as the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s especially strange, seeing as the US *doesn&#8217;t* have a history of seeing France as The Other. La Fayette, Louisiana, the whole Americans-in-Paris tradition (both a white and a black thing), General Pershing, the US contribution to liberation, Marshall aid, good economic ties (notably IBM)&#8230;it&#8217;s weird how the whole thing was manufactured in late 2002.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the Brits who have a history of seeing France as the other.</p>
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		<title>By: Jérôme</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france/#comment-17330</link>
		<dc:creator>Jérôme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:33:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france#comment-17330</guid>
		<description>Oh I agree that reform is needed. Just no the kind embodied by the word "reform" in the Economist or most of the busines press.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh I agree that reform is needed. Just no the kind embodied by the word &#8220;reform&#8221; in the Economist or most of the busines press.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Muir</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france/#comment-17328</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Muir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:58:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/economics-and-demography/economic-nonsense-about-france#comment-17328</guid>
		<description>Interesting stuff.  The American press is even worse, mind.

At the risk of being facile -- okay, /too/ facile -- I wonder if it doesn't have something to do with a long, long tradition of viewing France as The Other.  You don't see nearly as much of this sort of thing when talking about Germany, never mind Italy or any other large European economy.  

It's almost as if the Anglosphere is still haunted by the nagging fear that France might offer some sort of, y'know, viable alternative way to construct a society.


Doug M.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting stuff.  The American press is even worse, mind.</p>
<p>At the risk of being facile &#8212; okay, /too/ facile &#8212; I wonder if it doesn&#8217;t have something to do with a long, long tradition of viewing France as The Other.  You don&#8217;t see nearly as much of this sort of thing when talking about Germany, never mind Italy or any other large European economy.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s almost as if the Anglosphere is still haunted by the nagging fear that France might offer some sort of, y&#8217;know, viable alternative way to construct a society.</p>
<p>Doug M.</p>
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