You don’t lift up the underclass by depressing unskilled labor’s wages. Sure they might feel better looking at somebody even lower in status, but they’ll stay unemployed

All of this was part of what I was getting at Robert. We are in unknown territory, but I certainly think that this part is worth watching. It’s a tug-of-war between tradition and modernity. Obviously the one you mention here is the desireable outcome. I was just struck by some of the TV images in some of the villages they showed, where the sattelite ariels were definitely outside those homes with a son working-away, and where it was the patriarch who was being interviewed while watching the box and the wife who was doing all the washing and cooking. Of course, the arrival of external communication will eventually produce a ‘womens revolt’, the question is “over what timescale”?

The practice of polygyny might cause remittances to work differently in Senegal. If the recipient of remittances is the patriarch, then of course you’re right, and it’s even worse than that because the patriarch might display his children’s success by acquiring another wife from among the excess of young women that out-migration of men puts on Senegal’s marriage market.

But I don’t know but that the recipient of remittance, the target of filial responsibility in a polygynous family, might be one’s mother, particularly one’s widowed mother, who might be more inclined to celebrate her children’s success abroad by investing in the human capital of those remaining at home.

There will be an underclass. But making matters worse than necessary is not a good idea. I prefer social tensions only to social and ethnic tensions.

while i believe that unskilled (second generation) aliens push the local native underclass out of being underclass

up or down?

Political high skilled foreigners are much more of a problem during recessions because it will lead to more unemployed natives which will demand that they will be kicked out because they want those jobs. With unskilled foreigners you also get demands for them to be kicked out but the natives don’t really want those jobs (especially when you have a recovery) and the natives that do don’t have the political connections to make that happen.

About ghetto forming. Oliver i have the feeling that you believe that if there were no foreigners that there wont be an underclass with its problems while i believe that unskilled (second generation) aliens push the local native underclass out of being underclass

The fruit and vegetable sector is only a part of the agricultural sector so it is even smaller but it is one in which Spain has an advantage over the rest of Europe.
If you look at exports than it is not 3.4% but much more nor is it 3.4% of the private sector nor is it the only sector that depends on illegal aliens. Recreation, which i believe is an important industry in Spain, is also dependant on cheap unskilled labour.

We don’t need more lawyers.

But the problem with Vancouver Hong Kongers is that they displace Canadians in good paying jobs.

That hurts in the short term, but helps in the long term. And Europe will soon have a shortage of young people.

A very large export industry in Spain is the production of fruit and vegetables. They depend on cheap labour.

For 2003 the agricultural sector contributed 3.4% to Spain’s GDP. This is hardly the sector that should determine national immigration policy.

It is also an illusion that you can find highly skilled foreign labour for every field. It is easy to find a Indian doctor for Germany but very hard to find a Indian lawyer for German law. It also leads to the native population to focus on jobs without foreign competition which is in itself bad

“Why would we yield to migratory pressures? Obviously there is a demand for imported unskilled labor. But why would satisfying it lead to benefit for the community? Which indispensable industry depends on them?”

A very large export industry in Spain is the production of fruit and vegetables. They depend on cheap labour.

Don’t tell me…skin colour, right?

Having made the error this is one of the seemingly obvious ways of dealing with it. However, doing so will lead to politics based on race.

On the ‘ghettoes’ point, in some senses these are inevitable in a globalised world of internet, satellite TV and large scale migratory flows.

You are putting the cart before the horse. Why would we yield to migratory pressures? Obviously there is a demand for imported unskilled labor. But why would satisfying it lead to benefit for the community? Which indispensable industry depends on them?

You can say that we need to fill our fertility gap. However, if we fill it with unskilled illegal immigrants from Africa, we will get a little temporary reprieve, from the productive labor now, against later on, old, spent workers and their badly integrated, badly skilled children who’ll make it harder, not easier to attain the average productivity per worker we’ll need then.