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	<title>Comments on: White Eagle, Red Star by Norman Davies</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/white-eagle-red-star-by-norman-davies/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 07:39:06 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Sole F80 Treadmill Review</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/white-eagle-red-star-by-norman-davies/comment-page-1/#comment-52237</link>
		<dc:creator>Sole F80 Treadmill Review</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Nov 2011 00:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5464#comment-52237</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Sole F80 Treadmill Review...&lt;/strong&gt;

[...]White Eagle, Red Star by Norman Davies &#124; afoe &#124; A Fistful of Euros &#124; European Opinion[...]...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Sole F80 Treadmill Review&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>[...]White Eagle, Red Star by Norman Davies | afoe | A Fistful of Euros | European Opinion[...]&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jussi Jalonen</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/white-eagle-red-star-by-norman-davies/comment-page-1/#comment-25152</link>
		<dc:creator>Jussi Jalonen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 13:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5464#comment-25152</guid>
		<description>Well, as you may have noted, I do have a smattering of English, so they didn&#039;t really need a _Finnish_-Polish translator. Patrycja Bukalska, who edited the text, is perfectly fluent in English, so I wrote the main body of the article in English for her.

I can manage my everyday business in Polish just fine, but my written Polish doesn&#039;t really match journalistic standards quite yet.

Norman Davies, by the way, is obviously also a contributor in &quot;Tygodnik Powszechny&quot;. If memory serves, the last year he wrote an article where he reasoned that the Central European missile shield is really not a good idea.


Cheers,

J. J.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, as you may have noted, I do have a smattering of English, so they didn&#8217;t really need a _Finnish_-Polish translator. Patrycja Bukalska, who edited the text, is perfectly fluent in English, so I wrote the main body of the article in English for her.</p>
<p>I can manage my everyday business in Polish just fine, but my written Polish doesn&#8217;t really match journalistic standards quite yet.</p>
<p>Norman Davies, by the way, is obviously also a contributor in &#8220;Tygodnik Powszechny&#8221;. If memory serves, the last year he wrote an article where he reasoned that the Central European missile shield is really not a good idea.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>J. J.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Merrill</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/white-eagle-red-star-by-norman-davies/comment-page-1/#comment-25151</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Merrill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 13:14:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5464#comment-25151</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the pointer, JJ. My Polish isn&#039;t what it once was, but I will have a look. Where did they find a Finnish-Polish translator?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the pointer, JJ. My Polish isn&#8217;t what it once was, but I will have a look. Where did they find a Finnish-Polish translator?</p>
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		<title>By: Jussi Jalonen</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/white-eagle-red-star-by-norman-davies/comment-page-1/#comment-25150</link>
		<dc:creator>Jussi Jalonen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 11:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5464#comment-25150</guid>
		<description>I wouldn&#039;t necessarily say that the war has become less known than in 1972. My personal impression is that during the recent years, there&#039;s been quite a lot of new research on the various regional intricacies of the war. For example, the Ukrainian and Lithuanian sides are now topics of interest for the local historians.

As the title of his work indicated, Davies was still treating the war mainly as a Polish-Soviet conflict - which is, of course, a legitimate point of view still today. He did devote some attention also to the Lithuanian and Ukrainian issues, of course.

I might note that there were also Finnish volunteers serving on both sides of the Polish-Soviet war. On the Bolshevik side, there was the 480th Finnish Sharp-Shooter Regiment of the Red Army, consisting of the Red exiles of the Finnish Civil War; this was an elite unit of 1500 men, who were veterans of the battles against the Whites and the intervention forces in East Karelia and the Archangelsk Front. They were dispatched to Poland in May 1920. Most of them ended up prisoners when they attempted to escape with Ghai&#039;s forces to East Prussia, but some managed to get away. The surviving Finns were attached to the 18th Division of the Red Army, and participated in the operations against Armenians and Georgians in the winter of 1920-1921.

On the Polish side, there were those hapless Finnish volunteers who served in ataman Bulak-Balakhovich&#039;s forces (Bulak was also briefly mentioned by Davies). Most of these men were former Finnish Whites who had fought against the Bolsheviks also in the Estonian War of Independence, and then basically traveled further south, looking for a new opportunity to fight against the Reds. On the Polish front, they saw serious action during the &quot;Miracle of Vistula&quot;, and also in Bulak-Balakhovich&#039;s and Peremykin&#039;s subsequent disastrous incursions to Byelorussia and Ukraine. One of these men, Kaarlo Kurko, subsequently wrote his memoirs of the conflict.

I wrote an article of Kurko and his memoirs for the Polish weekly &quot;Tygodnik Powszechny&quot; back in the last August. Those who are fluent in Polish can read the text from the website of the paper:

http://tinyurl.com/p6jmv9



Cheers,

J. J.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t necessarily say that the war has become less known than in 1972. My personal impression is that during the recent years, there&#8217;s been quite a lot of new research on the various regional intricacies of the war. For example, the Ukrainian and Lithuanian sides are now topics of interest for the local historians.</p>
<p>As the title of his work indicated, Davies was still treating the war mainly as a Polish-Soviet conflict &#8211; which is, of course, a legitimate point of view still today. He did devote some attention also to the Lithuanian and Ukrainian issues, of course.</p>
<p>I might note that there were also Finnish volunteers serving on both sides of the Polish-Soviet war. On the Bolshevik side, there was the 480th Finnish Sharp-Shooter Regiment of the Red Army, consisting of the Red exiles of the Finnish Civil War; this was an elite unit of 1500 men, who were veterans of the battles against the Whites and the intervention forces in East Karelia and the Archangelsk Front. They were dispatched to Poland in May 1920. Most of them ended up prisoners when they attempted to escape with Ghai&#8217;s forces to East Prussia, but some managed to get away. The surviving Finns were attached to the 18th Division of the Red Army, and participated in the operations against Armenians and Georgians in the winter of 1920-1921.</p>
<p>On the Polish side, there were those hapless Finnish volunteers who served in ataman Bulak-Balakhovich&#8217;s forces (Bulak was also briefly mentioned by Davies). Most of these men were former Finnish Whites who had fought against the Bolsheviks also in the Estonian War of Independence, and then basically traveled further south, looking for a new opportunity to fight against the Reds. On the Polish front, they saw serious action during the &#8220;Miracle of Vistula&#8221;, and also in Bulak-Balakhovich&#8217;s and Peremykin&#8217;s subsequent disastrous incursions to Byelorussia and Ukraine. One of these men, Kaarlo Kurko, subsequently wrote his memoirs of the conflict.</p>
<p>I wrote an article of Kurko and his memoirs for the Polish weekly &#8220;Tygodnik Powszechny&#8221; back in the last August. Those who are fluent in Polish can read the text from the website of the paper:</p>
<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/p6jmv9" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/p6jmv9</a></p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>J. J.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard J</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/white-eagle-red-star-by-norman-davies/comment-page-1/#comment-25148</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 08:45:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5464#comment-25148</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s the problem I have, TBH. There&#039;s very few non-academic books on Polish history available in English, and most of them are written by Norman Davies... I just feel slightly uncomfortable in forming a reliable opinion on something so critical from such a limited knowledge base.

(And FB&gt; point taken and acknowledged. ;-) )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s the problem I have, TBH. There&#8217;s very few non-academic books on Polish history available in English, and most of them are written by Norman Davies&#8230; I just feel slightly uncomfortable in forming a reliable opinion on something so critical from such a limited knowledge base.</p>
<p>(And FB&gt; point taken and acknowledged. <img src='http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  )</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Merrill</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/white-eagle-red-star-by-norman-davies/comment-page-1/#comment-25140</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Merrill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 18:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5464#comment-25140</guid>
		<description>I think Davies&#039; point of view is well grounded, though I am also quite fond of things Polish. Dating the start of the war from the first armed encounter between Polish and Soviet forces after the withdrawal of the Germans seems reasonable, especially as he is clear about the fits and starts that followed, and how neither state would have planned for a major conflict at that time. He&#039;s kinder to Piłsudski than I would be, but then again he knows heaps more of the details than I do. He uses Isaac Babel&#039;s writings as a significant point of view from the Russian side, and he&#039;s even-handed on military matters throughout as far as I can tell. He cites, for instance, Piłsudski&#039;s high regard for Tukhachevsky&#039;s strategic choices, as well as Piłsudski&#039;s sense of the absurdity of the whole war. What do you think, Richard?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Davies&#8217; point of view is well grounded, though I am also quite fond of things Polish. Dating the start of the war from the first armed encounter between Polish and Soviet forces after the withdrawal of the Germans seems reasonable, especially as he is clear about the fits and starts that followed, and how neither state would have planned for a major conflict at that time. He&#8217;s kinder to Piłsudski than I would be, but then again he knows heaps more of the details than I do. He uses Isaac Babel&#8217;s writings as a significant point of view from the Russian side, and he&#8217;s even-handed on military matters throughout as far as I can tell. He cites, for instance, Piłsudski&#8217;s high regard for Tukhachevsky&#8217;s strategic choices, as well as Piłsudski&#8217;s sense of the absurdity of the whole war. What do you think, Richard?</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Merrill</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/white-eagle-red-star-by-norman-davies/comment-page-1/#comment-25139</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Merrill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 18:06:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5464#comment-25139</guid>
		<description>Carton de Wiart, Adrian, 77, 94, 221, 279.

&quot;[The Allied militar mission&#039;s] chief, General Adrian Carton de Wiart VC, was a wasted asset. This indestructible warrior, who had lost an eye in Somaliland in &#039;98 [[Pirates? Plus ça change...]] and a hand at Ypres, who had been shot through the lung in South Africa, through the skull and the ankle on the Somme, through the hip at Passchendaele and through the leg at Cambrai, possessed all the qualities best designed to appeal to the Polish officers among whom he was sent. ... At Mława in August 1920, he fought off a detachment of marauding Cossacks from the running board of his observation train, having at one point in his enthusiasm fallen onto the track. ...&quot; p. 94</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carton de Wiart, Adrian, 77, 94, 221, 279.</p>
<p>&#8220;[The Allied militar mission's] chief, General Adrian Carton de Wiart VC, was a wasted asset. This indestructible warrior, who had lost an eye in Somaliland in &#8217;98 [[Pirates? Plus ça change...]] and a hand at Ypres, who had been shot through the lung in South Africa, through the skull and the ankle on the Somme, through the hip at Passchendaele and through the leg at Cambrai, possessed all the qualities best designed to appeal to the Polish officers among whom he was sent. &#8230; At Mława in August 1920, he fought off a detachment of marauding Cossacks from the running board of his observation train, having at one point in his enthusiasm fallen onto the track. &#8230;&#8221; p. 94</p>
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		<title>By: Freude Bud</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/white-eagle-red-star-by-norman-davies/comment-page-1/#comment-25137</link>
		<dc:creator>Freude Bud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 17:28:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5464#comment-25137</guid>
		<description>The war was a bit of an international cause celeb, though more for the Right than the Left.  Merian Cooper, who, among a million other things, directed the original King Kong, also fought as a pilot for the Poles, for example.  (He tells the story of having been shot down over enemy lines, captured, imprisoned, killing a guard to escape, and walking West for a month through enemy territory until he reached friendly lines.)

The prolonged battle over the Curzon Line on Wikipedia is pretty good evidence that there&#039;s nothing as dogged in defending historical myth than a Polish nationalist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The war was a bit of an international cause celeb, though more for the Right than the Left.  Merian Cooper, who, among a million other things, directed the original King Kong, also fought as a pilot for the Poles, for example.  (He tells the story of having been shot down over enemy lines, captured, imprisoned, killing a guard to escape, and walking West for a month through enemy territory until he reached friendly lines.)</p>
<p>The prolonged battle over the Curzon Line on Wikipedia is pretty good evidence that there&#8217;s nothing as dogged in defending historical myth than a Polish nationalist.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard J</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/white-eagle-red-star-by-norman-davies/comment-page-1/#comment-25131</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 14:41:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5464#comment-25131</guid>
		<description>Much as I like Norman Davies&#039; work, there&#039;s always the slight problem of his Polonophilia (perfectly understandable and nowt wrong with it) in knowing how much of the interpretative framework to trust, particularly given the shortage of other books on this topic.

(Also, I note that the discussion page on the Wikipedia article on this war yet again confirms the empirical assertion that there&#039;s nothing as dogged in defending historical myth as a Russian nationalist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Much as I like Norman Davies&#8217; work, there&#8217;s always the slight problem of his Polonophilia (perfectly understandable and nowt wrong with it) in knowing how much of the interpretative framework to trust, particularly given the shortage of other books on this topic.</p>
<p>(Also, I note that the discussion page on the Wikipedia article on this war yet again confirms the empirical assertion that there&#8217;s nothing as dogged in defending historical myth as a Russian nationalist.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War</a> )</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/white-eagle-red-star-by-norman-davies/comment-page-1/#comment-25128</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 13:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=5464#comment-25128</guid>
		<description>Does Sir Adrian Carton de Wiart get a jersey?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does Sir Adrian Carton de Wiart get a jersey?</p>
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