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	<title>Comments on: Those Perfidious Frenchmen</title>
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	<description>European Opinion</description>
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		<title>By: Mrs Tilton</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/those-perfidious-frenchmen/comment-page-1/#comment-2315</link>
		<dc:creator>Mrs Tilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2004 19:23:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=292#comment-2315</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure that the Frenchification of the enemy in Master and Commander is down entirely to post-9/11 American francophobia. My reaction to the film was less than unreservedly enthusiastic. Still, I&#039;d be prepared to concede that, if one is going to make a single film from the series, the French have got to be the bad guys.

Mark S.&#039;s surmise -- that the 10th book in the series was chosen as the primary source for the film because it was logistically the simplest -- is insightful. The only problem is that, as everybody who has read the series knows, the Yanks were the villain of that piece. But viewed in the context of the entire series, turning them into Frenchmen in the film makes sense. O&#039;Brian was clearly very favourably disposed to the Americans. Yet because he began the series rather late in the Napoleonic era (as he later had cause to regret), he couldn&#039;t continue it for very long without running into the War of 1812. The Americans are the enemy in a few books, but the primary enemy of the series is, of course, the French. 

O&#039;Brian portrays the British sea-officers as fighting their transatlantic &#039;cousins&#039; only with great regret. Bt the books are francophobe (or at least, phobic of a certain type of franc) to their core. Jack Aubrey is firmly if mildly xenophobic, but seems to have trouble viewing Americans as quite properly foreign; while Stephen Maturin is forever brooding about &#039;that Buonaparte&#039; and doing all in his power to contribute to his downfall.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure that the Frenchification of the enemy in Master and Commander is down entirely to post-9/11 American francophobia. My reaction to the film was less than unreservedly enthusiastic. Still, I&#8217;d be prepared to concede that, if one is going to make a single film from the series, the French have got to be the bad guys.</p>
<p>Mark S.&#8217;s surmise &#8212; that the 10th book in the series was chosen as the primary source for the film because it was logistically the simplest &#8212; is insightful. The only problem is that, as everybody who has read the series knows, the Yanks were the villain of that piece. But viewed in the context of the entire series, turning them into Frenchmen in the film makes sense. O&#8217;Brian was clearly very favourably disposed to the Americans. Yet because he began the series rather late in the Napoleonic era (as he later had cause to regret), he couldn&#8217;t continue it for very long without running into the War of 1812. The Americans are the enemy in a few books, but the primary enemy of the series is, of course, the French. </p>
<p>O&#8217;Brian portrays the British sea-officers as fighting their transatlantic &#8216;cousins&#8217; only with great regret. Bt the books are francophobe (or at least, phobic of a certain type of franc) to their core. Jack Aubrey is firmly if mildly xenophobic, but seems to have trouble viewing Americans as quite properly foreign; while Stephen Maturin is forever brooding about &#8216;that Buonaparte&#8217; and doing all in his power to contribute to his downfall.</p>
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		<title>By: Edward</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/those-perfidious-frenchmen/comment-page-1/#comment-2314</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2004 18:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=292#comment-2314</guid>
		<description>&quot;But the French (and we Europeans) pay a high price, too&quot;

I would say Tobias that the final bill on this has yet to be settled.

If you go back to the twenties, and the role of the Banque de France in making life difficult for the British and the gold standard, surely you could argue there was an economic cost in terms of an exaccerbated European depression. 

In the 1980&#039;s you get the same picture with the undermining of the gold backing for the dollar, which lead to the Louvre and Plaza accords which are in part responsible for the mess we are about to have today.

Then we have the vanity of vanities the euro. Somehow they managed to convince Kohl (elf???) against the better judgement of a lot of good German economists. The only raison d&#039;etre seems to have been to try and undermine the dollar hegemony, and now we get to pay the price. And oh, what a price it may turn out to be! 

So yes: we Europeans pay a high price, too, for this Bonfire of the Vanities, and it isn&#039;t only a cinematographic one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But the French (and we Europeans) pay a high price, too&#8221;</p>
<p>I would say Tobias that the final bill on this has yet to be settled.</p>
<p>If you go back to the twenties, and the role of the Banque de France in making life difficult for the British and the gold standard, surely you could argue there was an economic cost in terms of an exaccerbated European depression. </p>
<p>In the 1980&#8242;s you get the same picture with the undermining of the gold backing for the dollar, which lead to the Louvre and Plaza accords which are in part responsible for the mess we are about to have today.</p>
<p>Then we have the vanity of vanities the euro. Somehow they managed to convince Kohl (elf???) against the better judgement of a lot of good German economists. The only raison d&#8217;etre seems to have been to try and undermine the dollar hegemony, and now we get to pay the price. And oh, what a price it may turn out to be! </p>
<p>So yes: we Europeans pay a high price, too, for this Bonfire of the Vanities, and it isn&#8217;t only a cinematographic one.</p>
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		<title>By: Edward</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/those-perfidious-frenchmen/comment-page-1/#comment-2313</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2004 18:13:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=292#comment-2313</guid>
		<description>I think the most interesting film you&#039;ve missed out on in all this is Bertolucci&#039;s &#039;The Dreamers&#039; - which has to be (along with Michael Winterbottoms &#039;In This World&#039;) one of the most accomplished films of recent years.

There is one superb scene (and of course you need to have followed the Cahiers debates over the years to appreciate what a master B is in the film) where the principal French character explains to the American (who is enamoured with the genius of Buster Keaton) just how much more of a genius (he imagines) Chaplin was. Here we have it. The ultimate arrogance: the French intellectual, explaining to the US one the significance of American cinema. Of course he may have got it wrong, and this is the point, since at the end of the film B - apart from thumbing his nose at everyone, with a Je ne regret pas rien - sides with american pragmatism against the allure of European intellectualism.

Brilliant: this is why we need art. To say the things which otherwise remain unsaid.

And this is also why Hollywood doesn&#039;t interest me at all: it simply states the obvious. (of course I leave out things like Eastwood&#039;s mystic river, which again is clearly in another class).

BTW two things which perhaps need to be taken into account in moving from a beta to an alpha version of the theory you present.

1/  The changed portrayal of the Irish in US cinema (mystic river is a good case in point). Clannish and gangster like. Maybe you could argue that post 09/11 terrorism in general has been re-evaluated (since of course the IRA was never treated in the way Al Quaeda currently is) and the Irish have consequently also come under the big hammer.

2/. That the scenes you describe are nothing new in US cinema. Back in the days of the Good Soldier  Ryan Cahiers was complaining bitterly about the image of the helpless French family stuck in a ruin awaiting rescue from the brave American GI&#039;s.

Plus ca change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the most interesting film you&#8217;ve missed out on in all this is Bertolucci&#8217;s &#8216;The Dreamers&#8217; &#8211; which has to be (along with Michael Winterbottoms &#8216;In This World&#8217;) one of the most accomplished films of recent years.</p>
<p>There is one superb scene (and of course you need to have followed the Cahiers debates over the years to appreciate what a master B is in the film) where the principal French character explains to the American (who is enamoured with the genius of Buster Keaton) just how much more of a genius (he imagines) Chaplin was. Here we have it. The ultimate arrogance: the French intellectual, explaining to the US one the significance of American cinema. Of course he may have got it wrong, and this is the point, since at the end of the film B &#8211; apart from thumbing his nose at everyone, with a Je ne regret pas rien &#8211; sides with american pragmatism against the allure of European intellectualism.</p>
<p>Brilliant: this is why we need art. To say the things which otherwise remain unsaid.</p>
<p>And this is also why Hollywood doesn&#8217;t interest me at all: it simply states the obvious. (of course I leave out things like Eastwood&#8217;s mystic river, which again is clearly in another class).</p>
<p>BTW two things which perhaps need to be taken into account in moving from a beta to an alpha version of the theory you present.</p>
<p>1/  The changed portrayal of the Irish in US cinema (mystic river is a good case in point). Clannish and gangster like. Maybe you could argue that post 09/11 terrorism in general has been re-evaluated (since of course the IRA was never treated in the way Al Quaeda currently is) and the Irish have consequently also come under the big hammer.</p>
<p>2/. That the scenes you describe are nothing new in US cinema. Back in the days of the Good Soldier  Ryan Cahiers was complaining bitterly about the image of the helpless French family stuck in a ruin awaiting rescue from the brave American GI&#8217;s.</p>
<p>Plus ca change.</p>
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		<title>By: Lewis</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/those-perfidious-frenchmen/comment-page-1/#comment-2312</link>
		<dc:creator>Lewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2004 17:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=292#comment-2312</guid>
		<description>The overwhelming majority of Hollywood movie villains are white male Americans.  I only wish the French were . . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The overwhelming majority of Hollywood movie villains are white male Americans.  I only wish the French were . . . .</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Martens</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/those-perfidious-frenchmen/comment-page-1/#comment-2311</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Martens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2004 15:21:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=292#comment-2311</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I&#039;m not sure there&#039;s much to this either, although there may be.  Holywood is pretty close to France, and as much as stereotypes of the French as people who don&#039;t even recognise Anglo culture as dominant have a shread of truth to them, it is also Holywood figures that receive the most enthusiastic acceptance in France.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I&#8217;m not sure there&#8217;s much to this either, although there may be.  Holywood is pretty close to France, and as much as stereotypes of the French as people who don&#8217;t even recognise Anglo culture as dominant have a shread of truth to them, it is also Holywood figures that receive the most enthusiastic acceptance in France.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Farber</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/those-perfidious-frenchmen/comment-page-1/#comment-2310</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Farber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:37:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=292#comment-2310</guid>
		<description>Um, but Frank Abagnale, Jr.&#039;s mother was French.  See here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um, but Frank Abagnale, Jr.&#8217;s mother was French.  See here.</p>
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		<title>By: Tobias</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/those-perfidious-frenchmen/comment-page-1/#comment-2309</link>
		<dc:creator>Tobias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2004 05:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=292#comment-2309</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think this is simply about cheese eating surrender monkeys either, although I certainly believe that villification in Hollywood has to follow the PC politcs de jour. 

But looking at the Hollywood/Paris/France relationship, it has a longstanding tradition of attraction-repulsion, one of mystical opposites drawn towards each other. It?s very cinematographic.

And it&#039;s all in Douglas Coupland&#039;s Shampoo planet: American &quot;male&quot; honesty being betrayed and drawn onward to doom by French &quot;female&quot; seductive sophistication that even, every time, gets away with it. This is, in the end, very Faustian for the poor Americans, for whom the very idea of France seems to be one of the eternally female that draws poor males onward into doom.

But ?France? (to be slightly generalising) isn?t really that feminine, as anyone who ever lived there will readily testify. It?s fare more machist, and clearly far more elitist (and far more American) than the image mostly conveyed by American cinematographic projections of their own perceived lack of cultural sophistication and beautiful cities.

But there?s more. Being French means to this day to be pretending to be entirely self-referential, resisting assimilation or even recognition of the US as current civilatory centre to be measured against, unlike like the Brits, or the vast majority of post 1945 Germans. Asterix might have been a Gaul, but he?s certainly French. And it?s this resistance that is the most annoying and at the same time the most attractive for ?Americans? (again slightly generalising). 

Moreover, for Hollywood, the exemplification of French resistance through a ?continental barrier? of quotas on Hollywood content  even adds a true price tag. 

But the French (and we Europeans) pay a high price, too, for this game of play pretend ? last Monday I talked to a film student at the national Grande Ecole for motion pictures, ?femis?, in Paris who complained about the lack of a healthy commercial motivation of French and European film students. Here it?s all about ?art?, she said. And she?s right. And that?s because in the eurosnobbish students? eyes, ?commercial? screams ?American?. They?re not exactly as self referential as they claim to be?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think this is simply about cheese eating surrender monkeys either, although I certainly believe that villification in Hollywood has to follow the PC politcs de jour. </p>
<p>But looking at the Hollywood/Paris/France relationship, it has a longstanding tradition of attraction-repulsion, one of mystical opposites drawn towards each other. It?s very cinematographic.</p>
<p>And it&#8217;s all in Douglas Coupland&#8217;s Shampoo planet: American &#8220;male&#8221; honesty being betrayed and drawn onward to doom by French &#8220;female&#8221; seductive sophistication that even, every time, gets away with it. This is, in the end, very Faustian for the poor Americans, for whom the very idea of France seems to be one of the eternally female that draws poor males onward into doom.</p>
<p>But ?France? (to be slightly generalising) isn?t really that feminine, as anyone who ever lived there will readily testify. It?s fare more machist, and clearly far more elitist (and far more American) than the image mostly conveyed by American cinematographic projections of their own perceived lack of cultural sophistication and beautiful cities.</p>
<p>But there?s more. Being French means to this day to be pretending to be entirely self-referential, resisting assimilation or even recognition of the US as current civilatory centre to be measured against, unlike like the Brits, or the vast majority of post 1945 Germans. Asterix might have been a Gaul, but he?s certainly French. And it?s this resistance that is the most annoying and at the same time the most attractive for ?Americans? (again slightly generalising). </p>
<p>Moreover, for Hollywood, the exemplification of French resistance through a ?continental barrier? of quotas on Hollywood content  even adds a true price tag. </p>
<p>But the French (and we Europeans) pay a high price, too, for this game of play pretend ? last Monday I talked to a film student at the national Grande Ecole for motion pictures, ?femis?, in Paris who complained about the lack of a healthy commercial motivation of French and European film students. Here it?s all about ?art?, she said. And she?s right. And that?s because in the eurosnobbish students? eyes, ?commercial? screams ?American?. They?re not exactly as self referential as they claim to be?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark S.</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/those-perfidious-frenchmen/comment-page-1/#comment-2308</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2004 04:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=292#comment-2308</guid>
		<description>Master and Commander&#039;s Frenchification is likely a function of money more than mores.  The Far Side of the World was the cheapest of the books to film -- only two ships in the whole thing, no complicated fleet maneuvers, lots of pontificating, etc.  This is why they chose to do a mishmash of two books, rather than just sticking with one.

Since they weren&#039;t going to make the antagonist an American ship, what other choice did they have?  I think this is at best a modest moment in anti-French-ness, far less anti-French than, for example, the appalling French Kiss with that renowned acteur francais Kevin Kline.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Master and Commander&#8217;s Frenchification is likely a function of money more than mores.  The Far Side of the World was the cheapest of the books to film &#8212; only two ships in the whole thing, no complicated fleet maneuvers, lots of pontificating, etc.  This is why they chose to do a mishmash of two books, rather than just sticking with one.</p>
<p>Since they weren&#8217;t going to make the antagonist an American ship, what other choice did they have?  I think this is at best a modest moment in anti-French-ness, far less anti-French than, for example, the appalling French Kiss with that renowned acteur francais Kevin Kline.</p>
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		<title>By: David Frazer</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/those-perfidious-frenchmen/comment-page-1/#comment-2307</link>
		<dc:creator>David Frazer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2004 04:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/?p=292#comment-2307</guid>
		<description>For what it&#039;s worth, according to the Internet Movie Database filming on The Matrix Reloaded started in March 2001, which suggests that the character of the Merovingian doesn&#039;t owe anything to 9/11 or Iraq-related &#039;perfidy&#039;.

As for Catch Me If You Can,, it&#039;s based on a true story and, if the hero&#039;s mother is French, that makes the hero half-French...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For what it&#8217;s worth, according to the Internet Movie Database filming on The Matrix Reloaded started in March 2001, which suggests that the character of the Merovingian doesn&#8217;t owe anything to 9/11 or Iraq-related &#8216;perfidy&#8217;.</p>
<p>As for Catch Me If You Can,, it&#8217;s based on a true story and, if the hero&#8217;s mother is French, that makes the hero half-French&#8230;</p>
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