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	<title>Comments on: German (European) education</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/german-european-education/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
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		<title>By: Thorsten</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/german-european-education/comment-page-1/#comment-20542</link>
		<dc:creator>Thorsten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 09:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3182#comment-20542</guid>
		<description>Doug,
neque tamen responsum ad quaestio mei expecto. unus professor quaeso!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doug,<br />
neque tamen responsum ad quaestio mei expecto. unus professor quaeso!</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/german-european-education/comment-page-1/#comment-20538</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 06:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3182#comment-20538</guid>
		<description>Fritz Stern opens &lt;em&gt;Einstein&#039;s German World&lt;/em&gt; by recalling a conversation he had with Raymond Aron, in which Aron said, &quot;You know, it could have been their century.&quot; And indeed it could have been in many ways. Math, computers, rockets, chemistry, philology, and more I probably am completely unaware of. The current US system of graduate education was lifted whole cloth from Germany and spread from the Johns Hopkins University to the rest of American academia. But Humboldt&#039;s animating ideas are getting on toward 200 years old at this point, and actual German practice is both far from those ideas and far from contemporary best global practices. Aron&#039;s assessment is both conditional and past tense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fritz Stern opens <em>Einstein&#8217;s German World</em> by recalling a conversation he had with Raymond Aron, in which Aron said, &#8220;You know, it could have been their century.&#8221; And indeed it could have been in many ways. Math, computers, rockets, chemistry, philology, and more I probably am completely unaware of. The current US system of graduate education was lifted whole cloth from Germany and spread from the Johns Hopkins University to the rest of American academia. But Humboldt&#8217;s animating ideas are getting on toward 200 years old at this point, and actual German practice is both far from those ideas and far from contemporary best global practices. Aron&#8217;s assessment is both conditional and past tense.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/german-european-education/comment-page-1/#comment-20496</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 12:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3182#comment-20496</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;when she studied Chem. in Oxford around WW2 most of the science books and articles were in German. Or so she claims&lt;/em&gt;

Yes, the Germans really dominated most fields of science in Europe up to the second world war; this is something else I remember from Vienna, which perhaps I should have pointed up more, the sense of one of the world&#039;s great intellectual moments having gone irretrievably - specifically because the people who made it got killed, exiled or censored.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>when she studied Chem. in Oxford around WW2 most of the science books and articles were in German. Or so she claims</em></p>
<p>Yes, the Germans really dominated most fields of science in Europe up to the second world war; this is something else I remember from Vienna, which perhaps I should have pointed up more, the sense of one of the world&#8217;s great intellectual moments having gone irretrievably &#8211; specifically because the people who made it got killed, exiled or censored.</p>
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		<title>By: Souvenir de Vienne at Jacob Christensen</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/german-european-education/comment-page-1/#comment-20473</link>
		<dc:creator>Souvenir de Vienne at Jacob Christensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 17:50:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3182#comment-20473</guid>
		<description>[...] More about the charms of German(ic) universities here. ---There is a problem with the direct link, hence the link to the front page [↩] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] More about the charms of German(ic) universities here. &#8212;There is a problem with the direct link, hence the link to the front page [↩] [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Culture Bleg: European Webcomics &#124; afoe &#124; A Fistful of Euros &#124; European Opinion</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/german-european-education/comment-page-1/#comment-20471</link>
		<dc:creator>Culture Bleg: European Webcomics &#124; afoe &#124; A Fistful of Euros &#124; European Opinion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 15:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3182#comment-20471</guid>
		<description>[...] Guy La Roche &#124; German (European) education [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Guy La Roche | German (European) education [...]</p>
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		<title>By: dutchmarbel</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/german-european-education/comment-page-1/#comment-20451</link>
		<dc:creator>dutchmarbel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 May 2008 16:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3182#comment-20451</guid>
		<description>My (Irish) mother in law still has quite a good grasp of German because when she studied Chem. in Oxford around WW2 most of the science books and articles were in German. Or so she claims ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My (Irish) mother in law still has quite a good grasp of German because when she studied Chem. in Oxford around WW2 most of the science books and articles were in German. Or so she claims <img src='http://fistfulofeuros.net/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Colin Reid</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/german-european-education/comment-page-1/#comment-20432</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Reid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 May 2008 01:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3182#comment-20432</guid>
		<description>Interestingly, there are a lot of German staff in my department, and Germans have played a major role in the department&#039;s development for decades.  But the Germans here at the moment have mixed opinions on the British versus the German system.  I&#039;ve heard some of them suggest one reason German universities don&#039;t have many non-German staff is that German universities have much more of an old boys&#039; network - getting a job is all about who rather than what you know, even more so than in the UK, and foreigners generally aren&#039;t going to have the same social connections in Germany as someone who has grown up in the German system.  I don&#039;t know how the UK compares with Germany in overall research output, but in maths at least, I don&#039;t think there&#039;s any sense that academics in either country are producing better research than those in the other.  (There is more of an argument that say Chinese universities aren&#039;t quite up to European standards in maths research yet, but that&#039;s another matter.)

Also, I don&#039;t know how it works in humanities, but most European publications in maths are in English nowadays.  It&#039;s like how a few hundred years ago, Western European scholars all published in Latin.  I read plenty of articles written by Germans, sometimes in German.  But usually I don&#039;t even need to use any language skills, because German mathematicians generally publish their work in English (not a translation - the original publication is in English, even if it&#039;s published in Mathematische Zeitschrift or whatever).  I don&#039;t think this is stifling expression so much as enhancing communication.  After all, it&#039;s desirable to know a few different languages (and to think in them - I agree with Thorsten here that Anglophones are sometimes a bit &#039;bornés&#039; on this score), but no-one can be expected to draw together research published in dozens of different languages all over the world. Much mathematics is in any case produced not by individuals, but by teams of 2-4 people, often of different nationalities - and in that case the language they talk to each other in is nearly always English.


As for talking about the &#039;Anglo&#039; system, this term doesn&#039;t make sense because the UK and US systems are very different.  Even as far as it is possible to generalise about US institutions, it usually doesn&#039;t apply to the UK, and vice versa.  For instance, undergraduates in the US tend to do a broad spread of subjects, whereas the UK is just the opposite: we specialise early and tend to pursue very narrow research topics (sometimes too narrow IMO).  The Australian, NZ and Canadian systems are different again.  Talking about them as if they are all the same is as meaningless as talking about &#039;the continental education system&#039;.


Maybe humanities are fundamentally different, I don&#039;t know; I can only speak about what I have experience of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interestingly, there are a lot of German staff in my department, and Germans have played a major role in the department&#8217;s development for decades.  But the Germans here at the moment have mixed opinions on the British versus the German system.  I&#8217;ve heard some of them suggest one reason German universities don&#8217;t have many non-German staff is that German universities have much more of an old boys&#8217; network &#8211; getting a job is all about who rather than what you know, even more so than in the UK, and foreigners generally aren&#8217;t going to have the same social connections in Germany as someone who has grown up in the German system.  I don&#8217;t know how the UK compares with Germany in overall research output, but in maths at least, I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s any sense that academics in either country are producing better research than those in the other.  (There is more of an argument that say Chinese universities aren&#8217;t quite up to European standards in maths research yet, but that&#8217;s another matter.)</p>
<p>Also, I don&#8217;t know how it works in humanities, but most European publications in maths are in English nowadays.  It&#8217;s like how a few hundred years ago, Western European scholars all published in Latin.  I read plenty of articles written by Germans, sometimes in German.  But usually I don&#8217;t even need to use any language skills, because German mathematicians generally publish their work in English (not a translation &#8211; the original publication is in English, even if it&#8217;s published in Mathematische Zeitschrift or whatever).  I don&#8217;t think this is stifling expression so much as enhancing communication.  After all, it&#8217;s desirable to know a few different languages (and to think in them &#8211; I agree with Thorsten here that Anglophones are sometimes a bit &#8216;bornés&#8217; on this score), but no-one can be expected to draw together research published in dozens of different languages all over the world. Much mathematics is in any case produced not by individuals, but by teams of 2-4 people, often of different nationalities &#8211; and in that case the language they talk to each other in is nearly always English.</p>
<p>As for talking about the &#8216;Anglo&#8217; system, this term doesn&#8217;t make sense because the UK and US systems are very different.  Even as far as it is possible to generalise about US institutions, it usually doesn&#8217;t apply to the UK, and vice versa.  For instance, undergraduates in the US tend to do a broad spread of subjects, whereas the UK is just the opposite: we specialise early and tend to pursue very narrow research topics (sometimes too narrow IMO).  The Australian, NZ and Canadian systems are different again.  Talking about them as if they are all the same is as meaningless as talking about &#8216;the continental education system&#8217;.</p>
<p>Maybe humanities are fundamentally different, I don&#8217;t know; I can only speak about what I have experience of.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/german-european-education/comment-page-1/#comment-20411</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 08:38:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3182#comment-20411</guid>
		<description>Thorsten is doing quite well at illustrating Eni&#039;s argument, and, to a slightly lesser extent, Chris Osman&#039;s as cited in the post. (I&#039;d also be interested in an explication of what Bildung is, if it is not the development of a person; otherwise, it starts to look like Wortnebel without much Aufklärung -- or in the modern lingua franca, a distinction without a difference.)

Chris, as to whether your German MA will be competitive in America, I think it depends entirely on the field and on what kind of league you&#039;re competing in. Is an MA in BWL from Bielefeld competitive with an MBA from Harvard? Is an MA in international relations from Munich competitive with one from the Nitze School at Hopkins? Marginally closer, but still no.

The difference, quite apart from arguments about content, is that a German MA is a first degree, generally without much of a professional network attached. An American MA is a second degree (except for the &#039;terminal&#039; MA given as a consolation prize for not completing a PhD course, which is a whole different kettle of fish) that often aims at a particular profession and comes with entry points into regional or national professional networks.

It&#039;s also a bit self-defeating to talk about American higher education as if it were all of one piece. (Harvard and Bunker Hill Community College are both tertiary institutions in Massachusetts, but lumping them together will not get you far in most analyses.) German universities used to pretend there was greater similarity, but that turned out to be self-defeating in a different way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thorsten is doing quite well at illustrating Eni&#8217;s argument, and, to a slightly lesser extent, Chris Osman&#8217;s as cited in the post. (I&#8217;d also be interested in an explication of what Bildung is, if it is not the development of a person; otherwise, it starts to look like Wortnebel without much Aufklärung &#8212; or in the modern lingua franca, a distinction without a difference.)</p>
<p>Chris, as to whether your German MA will be competitive in America, I think it depends entirely on the field and on what kind of league you&#8217;re competing in. Is an MA in BWL from Bielefeld competitive with an MBA from Harvard? Is an MA in international relations from Munich competitive with one from the Nitze School at Hopkins? Marginally closer, but still no.</p>
<p>The difference, quite apart from arguments about content, is that a German MA is a first degree, generally without much of a professional network attached. An American MA is a second degree (except for the &#8216;terminal&#8217; MA given as a consolation prize for not completing a PhD course, which is a whole different kettle of fish) that often aims at a particular profession and comes with entry points into regional or national professional networks.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also a bit self-defeating to talk about American higher education as if it were all of one piece. (Harvard and Bunker Hill Community College are both tertiary institutions in Massachusetts, but lumping them together will not get you far in most analyses.) German universities used to pretend there was greater similarity, but that turned out to be self-defeating in a different way.</p>
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		<title>By: Thorsten</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/german-european-education/comment-page-1/#comment-20387</link>
		<dc:creator>Thorsten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 14:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3182#comment-20387</guid>
		<description>i like what everyone is writting here.  Kate, my sincere apologies for mixing up your name with what Doug said.  
i think that there are good things in america and in the uk.  i was not making a joke and i did not mean to be sarcastic or ironic and ineed not sardonic or look down on a person.
the german system is better, simply, i think. i am happy to compare them.  look at academic journals, in the humanities, for the us and england.  what do you find? you find english articles citing english articles and books which cite other english article and books.  the whole thing is homocultural.  in america it should be outlawed to print an article and only cite english articles, like americans outlaw gay marriage.
it is a shame that the german system is changing because of the money culture that is so big in our small world.  we are becoming more and more dominated by one language and people who only know that language and way of thinking. 
the words here are not an insult that i am going to say: americans, do not come to germany, keep going to the uk for your tourist studies, your system is good in your country and you should make it better, but do not come here trying to change things here and make them like your simple egalitarian system. ut voca non se doctor si quod magister artium sis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i like what everyone is writting here.  Kate, my sincere apologies for mixing up your name with what Doug said.<br />
i think that there are good things in america and in the uk.  i was not making a joke and i did not mean to be sarcastic or ironic and ineed not sardonic or look down on a person.<br />
the german system is better, simply, i think. i am happy to compare them.  look at academic journals, in the humanities, for the us and england.  what do you find? you find english articles citing english articles and books which cite other english article and books.  the whole thing is homocultural.  in america it should be outlawed to print an article and only cite english articles, like americans outlaw gay marriage.<br />
it is a shame that the german system is changing because of the money culture that is so big in our small world.  we are becoming more and more dominated by one language and people who only know that language and way of thinking.<br />
the words here are not an insult that i am going to say: americans, do not come to germany, keep going to the uk for your tourist studies, your system is good in your country and you should make it better, but do not come here trying to change things here and make them like your simple egalitarian system. ut voca non se doctor si quod magister artium sis.</p>
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		<title>By: Kimberley Verburg</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/german-european-education/comment-page-1/#comment-20386</link>
		<dc:creator>Kimberley Verburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 11:24:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/?p=3182#comment-20386</guid>
		<description>The point about personal development is indeed interesting. I don&#039;t remember that angle being pushed so much in New Zealand, but it&#039;s true that there was a broad range of extra curricular activities available for students. I was very disappointed to find much of that missing when I went to Leiden.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point about personal development is indeed interesting. I don&#8217;t remember that angle being pushed so much in New Zealand, but it&#8217;s true that there was a broad range of extra curricular activities available for students. I was very disappointed to find much of that missing when I went to Leiden.</p>
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