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	<title>Comments on: Administration of Torture by Jameel Jaffer and Amrit Singh</title>
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	<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/culture/administration-of-torture-by-jameel-jaffer-and-amrit-singh/</link>
	<description>European Opinion</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 19:49:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Chris Brown</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/culture/administration-of-torture-by-jameel-jaffer-and-amrit-singh/#comment-18294</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 02:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you for the very informative review. 

But, please, can we put to rest the myth that the USA is "the liberator of people from oppressive regimes"? The Shah of Iran, Marcos, Somoza, Batista, Duvalier, Pinochet, and a whole host of other murderously oppressive regimes have been installed and supported by the USA, often deposing democratically elected governments in the process.  

Ever since the USA went imperial in th elate 19th century the USA government has supported despots so long as the despot ensured access to their country's markets for USA business.  

Doing so, the USA has trained members of the despots' internal security police and military in the art of torture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for the very informative review. </p>
<p>But, please, can we put to rest the myth that the USA is &#8220;the liberator of people from oppressive regimes&#8221;? The Shah of Iran, Marcos, Somoza, Batista, Duvalier, Pinochet, and a whole host of other murderously oppressive regimes have been installed and supported by the USA, often deposing democratically elected governments in the process.  </p>
<p>Ever since the USA went imperial in th elate 19th century the USA government has supported despots so long as the despot ensured access to their country&#8217;s markets for USA business.  </p>
<p>Doing so, the USA has trained members of the despots&#8217; internal security police and military in the art of torture.</p>
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		<title>By: john somer</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/culture/administration-of-torture-by-jameel-jaffer-and-amrit-singh/#comment-18293</link>
		<dc:creator>john somer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 20:44:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/culture/administration-of-torture-by-jameel-jaffer-and-amrit-singh#comment-18293</guid>
		<description>There was a testimony by a former Special Forces member who had voluntarily undergone waterboarding  a few days back in "The :Washington Note" blog. He said it was defintely torture.
I wonder why McCain did not ask Rudy if he'd volunteer submitting to the treatment since he, like Cheney considers it "just a dunking".
One thing has got to be remembered: you cannot successfully interrogate somebody if you don't know his culture (just ask an inner city cop). The Americans wjo knew Iraqi or Afghan culture could probably be counted on the fingers of both hands (or maybe only one) in 2003</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was a testimony by a former Special Forces member who had voluntarily undergone waterboarding  a few days back in &#8220;The :Washington Note&#8221; blog. He said it was defintely torture.<br />
I wonder why McCain did not ask Rudy if he&#8217;d volunteer submitting to the treatment since he, like Cheney considers it &#8220;just a dunking&#8221;.<br />
One thing has got to be remembered: you cannot successfully interrogate somebody if you don&#8217;t know his culture (just ask an inner city cop). The Americans wjo knew Iraqi or Afghan culture could probably be counted on the fingers of both hands (or maybe only one) in 2003</p>
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		<title>By: Guy La Rochei</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/culture/administration-of-torture-by-jameel-jaffer-and-amrit-singh/#comment-18291</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy La Rochei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:10:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/culture/administration-of-torture-by-jameel-jaffer-and-amrit-singh#comment-18291</guid>
		<description>"The public knew about Abu Ghraib in 2004 like you said. Do you see any serious investigations into what and how it happened? Did it hurt Bush or Rumsfeld? Or Yoo?"

I think &lt;i&gt;Administration of Torture&lt;/i&gt; is one example of a serious investigation. Or the potential beginning of an even more serious investigation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The public knew about Abu Ghraib in 2004 like you said. Do you see any serious investigations into what and how it happened? Did it hurt Bush or Rumsfeld? Or Yoo?&#8221;</p>
<p>I think <i>Administration of Torture</i> is one example of a serious investigation. Or the potential beginning of an even more serious investigation.</p>
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		<title>By: Guy La Roche</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/culture/administration-of-torture-by-jameel-jaffer-and-amrit-singh/#comment-18290</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy La Roche</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/culture/administration-of-torture-by-jameel-jaffer-and-amrit-singh#comment-18290</guid>
		<description>On a personal note, I can highly recommend psychiatrist Scott Peck's "People of the Lie" with regards to the way populations react to "evil" in their midst. Peck was one of a team of psychiatrists who was sent to Vietnam to investigate why the My Lai massacre could have happened. He provides many insights into personal and mass psychology. Very interesting stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On a personal note, I can highly recommend psychiatrist Scott Peck&#8217;s &#8220;People of the Lie&#8221; with regards to the way populations react to &#8220;evil&#8221; in their midst. Peck was one of a team of psychiatrists who was sent to Vietnam to investigate why the My Lai massacre could have happened. He provides many insights into personal and mass psychology. Very interesting stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Guy La Roche</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/culture/administration-of-torture-by-jameel-jaffer-and-amrit-singh/#comment-18289</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy La Roche</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:00:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/culture/administration-of-torture-by-jameel-jaffer-and-amrit-singh#comment-18289</guid>
		<description>Detlef, thank you for your reaction. Believe me when I tell you I grappled with the very same issues you raise. Apart from being naive I am as cynical as the next guy.

That said, a book like this would never be published in a true tyranny. As soon as a US administration starts banning indictments like these then, yes, true freedom in America will be dead.

I am acutely aware of the political side of things and I know that there is plenty of scapegoating (I recently saw a documentary in which the convicted "bad apples" gave their version of the story) and I know a lot of it has to do with preserving the image of a noble America. All of these things I have hinted at in my review.

At the same time I do believe hope is important and that there are plenty of Americans who do feel uncomfortable with what their administration has been doing. And, yes, this is my naive side speaking. But I know from personal experience that being naive and fighting mentally against "evil" is important, no matter how useless it seems with regards to concrete results.

To condemn a whole population, wrongly in my opinion, for the actions of their administration and for the support this administration is getting from a part of that very same population would mean that you put the population as a whole in a corner from which they can no longer escape. And there is always a tomorrow. I like to keep a window open to that tomorrow. Even when it seems futile most of the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Detlef, thank you for your reaction. Believe me when I tell you I grappled with the very same issues you raise. Apart from being naive I am as cynical as the next guy.</p>
<p>That said, a book like this would never be published in a true tyranny. As soon as a US administration starts banning indictments like these then, yes, true freedom in America will be dead.</p>
<p>I am acutely aware of the political side of things and I know that there is plenty of scapegoating (I recently saw a documentary in which the convicted &#8220;bad apples&#8221; gave their version of the story) and I know a lot of it has to do with preserving the image of a noble America. All of these things I have hinted at in my review.</p>
<p>At the same time I do believe hope is important and that there are plenty of Americans who do feel uncomfortable with what their administration has been doing. And, yes, this is my naive side speaking. But I know from personal experience that being naive and fighting mentally against &#8220;evil&#8221; is important, no matter how useless it seems with regards to concrete results.</p>
<p>To condemn a whole population, wrongly in my opinion, for the actions of their administration and for the support this administration is getting from a part of that very same population would mean that you put the population as a whole in a corner from which they can no longer escape. And there is always a tomorrow. I like to keep a window open to that tomorrow. Even when it seems futile most of the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Detlef</title>
		<link>http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/culture/administration-of-torture-by-jameel-jaffer-and-amrit-singh/#comment-18288</link>
		<dc:creator>Detlef</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:17:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/culture/administration-of-torture-by-jameel-jaffer-and-amrit-singh#comment-18288</guid>
		<description>Katherine at Obsidian Wings also wrote many posts about extraordinary rendition and torture, just to add to your post.

Regarding "proof that the American democracy is still alive and kicking and that we can still look to America as an example of true freedom".

Doesn´t that depend a little on what happens in the next few months and years? Meaning will anybody above a few "bad apple soldiers" be held responsible?

If not, couldn´t a future American President then just simply point at this precedent and do the same again?
Redefine torture, add signing statements to laws, secret Presidential findings, respond to any court challenge with the "state secrets" defense etc.?

I´m a bit afraid that a majority of Americans including politicians simply don´t want to hear about it. Kind of like "Americans are always good and noble, so we wouldn´t really torture".
And if it´s done, it happens only to very bad people. The ticking time-bomb scenario.

The public knew about Abu Ghraib in 2004 like you said. Do you see any serious investigations into what and how it happened? Did it hurt Bush or Rumsfeld? Or Yoo?

Look at the Democrats in Congress.
What I see is Democrats afraid of being called soft on terror. Remember Pelosi in late 2006 after the Democrats won the election? Impeachment is off the table, she said.

So to me it looks like:
- many Americans don´t want their illusions shattered
- the Democrats want to win in 2008
--&#62; nobody will be held responsible.
Maybe I´m cynical but that´s my impression.
And that isn´t my definition of an "an example of true freedom". Sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Katherine at Obsidian Wings also wrote many posts about extraordinary rendition and torture, just to add to your post.</p>
<p>Regarding &#8220;proof that the American democracy is still alive and kicking and that we can still look to America as an example of true freedom&#8221;.</p>
<p>Doesn´t that depend a little on what happens in the next few months and years? Meaning will anybody above a few &#8220;bad apple soldiers&#8221; be held responsible?</p>
<p>If not, couldn´t a future American President then just simply point at this precedent and do the same again?<br />
Redefine torture, add signing statements to laws, secret Presidential findings, respond to any court challenge with the &#8220;state secrets&#8221; defense etc.?</p>
<p>I´m a bit afraid that a majority of Americans including politicians simply don´t want to hear about it. Kind of like &#8220;Americans are always good and noble, so we wouldn´t really torture&#8221;.<br />
And if it´s done, it happens only to very bad people. The ticking time-bomb scenario.</p>
<p>The public knew about Abu Ghraib in 2004 like you said. Do you see any serious investigations into what and how it happened? Did it hurt Bush or Rumsfeld? Or Yoo?</p>
<p>Look at the Democrats in Congress.<br />
What I see is Democrats afraid of being called soft on terror. Remember Pelosi in late 2006 after the Democrats won the election? Impeachment is off the table, she said.</p>
<p>So to me it looks like:<br />
- many Americans don´t want their illusions shattered<br />
- the Democrats want to win in 2008<br />
&#8211;&gt; nobody will be held responsible.<br />
Maybe I´m cynical but that´s my impression.<br />
And that isn´t my definition of an &#8220;an example of true freedom&#8221;. Sorry.</p>
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